Sauer 90 in 375 H&H and BRNO 602

[SRvet]

I have come across a Sauer 90 in .375 H&H for sale at a reasonable price. The photos look like the rifle is barely used. Does anyone have any experience with this rifle in a PG and DG capacity? It seems to have quite a complex rear locking system where fins are pushed out from the bolt body when the bolt handle is locked and the fins lock against the rear of the ejection port rather than having a traditional front bolt lugs and lug recess. I must admit I am in two minds about this relatively complex bolt design as there seems a lot to go wrong compared to one of two BRNO 602 that is also for sale at even more attractive prices. What do you think? Bag the Sauer or give it a swerve? Would the war horse 602 be worth considering?

 

[One Day...]

Hello SRvet, welcome to the madhouse

The Sauer 90 is a beautiful rifle and the smoothness of its mechanism is without equal. I know, I owned a gorgeous Sauer 90 Luxus in 7 mm Rem Mag for 20 years and loved it. I ended up selling it to a American collector who wanted it more than I did...

I expect that most answers that will come in this thread will question whether the Sauer 90 mechanism is TOO perfect for Africa. This is an argument that has been going for quite a while regarding 1970's era Steyr-Mannlicher, Sauer 90, Mauser 66, or such tight tolerances rifles for Africa. Some will argue that these actions tolerances are too tight to be sand-proof in Africa. Again, I know, I also own a Mauser 66 in .458 Lott that is so precise and glass-smooth that its action cycles itself when I tilt the rifle upward then downward after lifting the bolt... What it would do after a sand bath is likely debatable

The ZKK 602 / CZ 550 is taking the other approach. It is the AK47 of dangerous game rifles. Many complain that it is too rough, which is true but easily fixable (keep in mind that Rigby themselves used this action to build their rifles for decades when the magnum length Mauser action was out of production). Paradoxically, it is also a very tight action from the factory. Rifle smiths who specialize in it (Wayne at American Hunting Rifles, Harlan & Meagan at Triple River Gunsmithing, etc.) "release" the action to make it comparable to the Win 70 which is actually not very smooth but very loose, and therefore cycles easily from the factory.

There are also the matters that;

- The ZKK / CZ has built in scope bases in its double square bridges. These will never get loose as the Sauer (and others) screwed-on bases can, and likely will, if you shoot one in Dangerous game (DG) or high recoil caliber enough. I shot loose the bases on a Mark V .340 Wby over the course of a few months pre-safari practice and a 12 days Safari...

- The ZKK / CZ has an integral rear sight island and barrel band front sight - and these sights are actually regulated from the factory. These too will never get loose as the Sauer (and others) screwed-on iron sights can. That is if there are any iron sights on the Sauer to begin with. I actually lost the screwed-on front sight on a Voere Titan .375 H&H...

- The Sauer 90 has a detachable - therefore 'loosable' - magazine of medium capacity (3). The ZKK / CZ has an integral high capacity (5) magazine. I do not really care so much about the additional 2 rounds, but enough spare magazines have been sold by Sauer, Steyr-Mannlicher, etc. to indicate that some are lost in the field...

- The Sauer 90 is quite light for a DG caliber rifle (7.7 lbs). The ZKK / CZ has a much more realistic - for DG calibers - weight of 9.4 lbs. By the time you take a quick shot under pressure in an uncertain field position with a very powerful light rifle, you may join the very populous "Scope Eyebrow" club...

- The CZ / ZKK is a true "Mauser" control round feed (CRF) action. The Sauer 90 is a push feed action. Each will decide for themselves how important this is to them. I personally am not overly concerned with the extraction argument, as much as I am with the security aspect: it is impossible to unwittingly leave a round pushed in the chamber of a CRF rifle, as it is possible to do so with a push feed rifle, and this HAS contributed (along inept rifle handling) to lethal accidents to happen...

When all is said and done, I suspect that the ZKK / CZ is a more traditional, and likely a more rational choice for Africa. I am not entirely sure how real the sand-proof argument is (unless you plan to be tossed by a buffalo and then somehow retrieve your rifle from under its hooves and finally kill it - this has happen often enough for the classic literature to be full of examples of it!), but the scope bases, iron sights, magazine, weight, CRF arguments are factual.

I hope this helps

 

[BeeMaa]

@SRvet welcome to AH.
And welcome to the mind of (the condensed version of CZ/BRNO vs the world) @One Day...

Truth be told, @One Day... and I share this opinion.
The CZ550/BRNO602 is the Toyota Land Cruiser of Africa.
Buy it, don't look back...just buy it.

Unless you are considering a Blaser R8.
Then we really need to talk.

 

[One Day...]

Yep, many folks will give an opinion. Like body parts, we all have opinions. Some are grounded, some are not

I would rather provide facts. My mind may be wired differently, but I would rather base my decisions on facts rather than on the opinion of 57 people I do not know, who may indeed be qualified to have a valuable opinion, or who may just "have an opinion"

I will only pay attention to the opinion of folks after I get to know them and formulate my own opinion of their opinions: i.e. do they tend to be fact-based. This applies to any discussion, certainly including, but not limited to, CZ about which it seems there is indeed an inordinate number of people having opinions rather than facts

But hey, it is just me, and anyway I hope that the facts were useful

 

[Red Leg]

I'll let you browse through my friend One Day's "facts" and determine how relevant they are to your purchase. I will simply note that the Sauer 90 is a superbly accurate and dependable rifle based upon my actual experience with it in the field.

I purchased one for my son about eight years ago and he has used it on two safaris to include a demanding hunt for buffalo in the Zambezi Delta of Mozambique - I should add, that is a fairly firearm unfriendly area of mud and water. There he took a wonderful bull and a host of plains game to include a SCI gold waterbuck at nearly 300 meters. It also served him well in the dust of central Namibia where it again accounted for a great selection of plains game to include a magnificent bull oryx at over 250 meters.

The rifle is indeed somewhat lighter than other .375's - particularly the overly heavy CZ series. It is comparable in weight to my version of the Blaser R8 in .375. It is built to be a rifle that can be carried all day in the worst of conditions and yet deliver pin point accuracy when you close with your game animal.

No it is not a CRF action, but it is totally dependable and correspondents who seem so focused on CRF simply need to get out more.

It is a Great option for Africa. It also a rifle that you won’t see leaning against every camp gun rack on the continent.

All that said, a 602 will also not disappoint, and is a great choice if you want everyone to nod sagely with your selection.

 

[enysse]

I think both are great options! The BRNO 602 is considered the workhorse of Africa. They are a great gun for the $$$$. The Sauer 90 is a beautiful gun! It will get the job done. Yes it’s more money but if it feels good in your hands and gives you confidence that is the main thing. I highly doubt it will malfunction and I’m sure you will get tight groups. It’s really up to you and what feels good when you put the gun to the shoulder.

 

[One Day...]

Well, my friend Red Leg is actually among those whose opinion I pay attention to, although, like me, he is not immune to the occasional passionate slip

Case in point: if the ZKK / CZ is "overly heavy" then we shall have to assume that pretty much every .375 H&H built by Holland & Holland, Rigby, Mauser, etc. on the Mauser magnum action is also "overly heavy." By any traditional standard we are on thin ice calling a 9.4 lbs .375 "overly heavy" don't you think Joe?

This being said, I agree that the Sauer 90 is a great rifle, and I said that I loved mine, and I invite re-reading my conclusion: "I am not entirely sure how real the sand-proof argument is ... but the scope bases, iron sights, magazine, weight, CRF arguments are factual." I am not saying they are good, bad or indifferent, I am just saying they ARE. Now indeed, I agree with Red Leg that each will formulate their own opinion based on these facts - I think my exact quote re. CRF was "Each will decide for themselves how important this is to them" - but I do not believe that these facts are reasonably arguable (hence not need to put the word "facts" in quotes), and I suspect that these are exactly the factual pros & cons that someone not familiar with either rifle will appreciate so that they can precisely "determine how relevant they are to (their) purchase."

I mean, if the entire discussions is just: Jim likes A, John prefers B, Matt hates C, Bill killed a great unicorn with D, Andrew missed a barn from the inside with E, etc. is this really helpful to SRvet?

Just saying...

PS: told you it was mad house

 

[mark-hunter]

Gents,
Allow me the bring our new friend @SRvet up to speed, please!

@SRvet ,
Once again, I welcome you to the forum, and let me highlight few points.

Being in quarantine lately, it comes to my greatest pleasure to read with my first morning coffee several topics and debates presently on going on the forum. One set of topics are hunting stories of bygone era of postcolonial India, by our forum members from Bangladesh.

Secondly:

There is very meaningful exchange of two respected, experienced, and well educated gentlemen and forum members, which are @Red Leg, and @One Day.
The hot topic of this forum season, and it always gets to it, are the advantages of controlled round feed of mauser 98 basic design, and shall we say, more modern designs of reputable gun makers.

So, you are just caught in the middle of it. You can take also look, in these meaningful discussions as well.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/the-old-crf-vs-prf-debate.44238/
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/blaser-r8-for-dangerous-game.53390/

Personally, I appreciate both inputs.
And on my side, and I am desperately old fashion, so, I tend to prefer mauser action for african safari, basically, for the reason of being hopelessly nostalgic.... In Africa, I hunted twice (PG), first time with steyr PRF, 375hh, second time with masuer 98, CRF, 300 hh... all worked well. At home I have different rifles, for sport target shooting, or hunting, and had no failures with any system, and now I am looking for cz550 or something similar in 375 hh for the purpose of African safaris in the future. I also do not like recoil, so I lean towards more heavy rifle, as well.

 

[Pondoro]

This debate begs the question...what bolt rifles did the well known PH´s, game control officers and other hunters rely upon from the beginning of the 1900´s and up to these days..for DG..? Mostly Mauser M98 in different models, the odd Mannlicher, Winchester M70´s (a Mauser derivative..)..

The Mausers have worked and served their users well...me I think most of the newer rifles are for the most part the emperors new clothes…

 

[SRvet]

Guys
Thanks for the interesting and varied inputs. The light weight of the Sauer is something I hadn’t appreciated. I will confess to generally being a heavier weight rifle fan so this may be important information. Keep the comments coming, they are enlightening!!

 

[Red Leg]

Well, my friend Red Leg is actually among those whose opinion I pay attention to, although, like me, he is not immune to the occasional passionate slip

Case in point: if the ZKK / CZ is "overly heavy" then we shall have to assume that pretty much every .375 H&H built by Holland & Holland, Rigby, Mauser, etc. on the Mauser magnum action is also "overly heavy." By any traditional standard we are on thin ice calling a 9.4 lbs .375 "overly heavy" don't you think Joe?

This being said, I agree that the Sauer 90 is a great rifle, and I said that I loved mine, and I invite re-reading my conclusion: "I am not entirely sure how real the sand-proof argument is ... but the scope bases, iron sights, magazine, weight, CRF arguments are factual." I am not saying they are good, bad or indifferent, I am just saying they ARE. Now indeed, I agree with Red Leg that each will formulate their own opinion based on these facts - I think my exact quote re. CRF was "Each will decide for themselves how important this is to them" - but I do not believe that these facts are reasonably arguable (hence not need to put the word "facts" in quotes), and I suspect that these are exactly the factual pros & cons that someone not familiar with either rifle will appreciate so that they can precisely "determine how relevant they are to (their) purchase."

I mean, if the entire discussions is just: Jim likes A, John prefers B, Matt hates C, Bill killed a great unicorn with D, Andrew missed a barn from the inside with E, etc. is this really helpful to SRvet?

Just saying...

PS: told you it was mad house

You are right. Why on earth could actual experience with the rifle and specific caliber in question be of any possible value whatsoever SRvet or anyone else?

9.5 lbs was indeed more or less the traditional standard for most .375's, rifles that were designed for use with open sights. Today, with scopes, scope bases, ammunition holders on stocks (an addition I do not get), slings, and standard barrel contours we often end up with go to field weights closer to 11 to 11.5 pounds (that is not an opinion by the way). Your Sauer, on the other hand, all decked out for a day in the field will be right in line with that traditional weight.

Just saying.........

If your hunt is built around long hours banging around in a land cruiser, the weight doesn't matter. If your hunt is built around long hours and miles on foot trailing eland or buffalo, you will feel a heavy rifle.

I would urge you to handle both rifles. They will both absolutely do the job. I suppose that I am enough of a non-conformist (or perhaps I merely conform to my own requirements) to be excited when someone brings up a rifle like the Sauer. It is an uniquely elegant solution to taking a buffalo or any other game on the continent.

The "if it was good enough for Blixen in '25, it's good enough for me! (and by extension - you)" crowd won't like it or much of anything else that doesn't look like a mauser. I would chose the one that appeals to you.

 

[Shootist43]

SRvet, now that you've the Pros and Cons of both rifles, which one do think you'll get? There is no right or wrong choice here, just one of trade-offs and preference.

 

[SRvet]

Having considered it I have put a bid in for the BRNO 602. There is a considerable body of opinion that supports this rifle and to be honest the only negative I can come up with is the safety being the wrong way round. This will clearly take a bit of getting used to but I can see how I get on with it in non life threatening situations first. The increased weight I see as an advantage as my lightest centrefire rifle (308) weighs 11 lbs scoped so I suspect this will end up being similar.

 

[IvW]

Great choice, I own 3 DG rifles on ZKK602 actions and they have always got the job done.

 

[AZDAVE]

Having shot both I could very easily make a case for either one. The Sauer is a fine rifle that shot great and is easy to carry. I sold it to a friend only because of the ergonomics of the stocks. The 602 fit my body dimensions much better. I love shooting my 602. You can't really go wrong with either one. Just understand the manual of arms for each and go have some great hunts.

 

[Bruce]

A no Brainer.... The ZKK602 has to be the one.. I own two of them in 375 H&H Magnum and one in 300 Win Magnum... Plus a CZ 550 in 458 Win Mag.
With the 375's, I have one scoped for PG and the other for DG..
Incidebtakly, I have never had any work done on either of these rifles... Just worked the bolt a bit.. Smooth as a baby's bum!!

 

[Major Khan]

I can personally highly endorse the BRNO ZKK series of bolt rifles . They are exceptionally accurate and reliable . Built like tanks . What I really love about them , is that they have the magazine floor plate release catch located OUTSIDE the trigger ... as opposed to conventional Mauser 98 action rifles.
However , I cannot speak of the Sauer Model 90 ... because I have no personal experience with those .

 

[BeeMaa]

This debate begs the question...what bolt rifles did the well known PH´s, game control officers and other hunters rely upon from the beginning of the 1900´s and up to these days..for DG..? Mostly Mauser M98 in different models, the odd Mannlicher, Winchester M70´s (a Mauser derivative..)..

The Mausers have worked and served their users well...me I think most of the newer rifles are for the most part the emperors new clothes…

Not sure that it would be a fair comparison between the CRF and PF.
The PF action was introduced in 1949 by Remington with the model 721 (predecessor to the R700).
The Mauser '98 CRF action had a 51 year head start and firm following by the time PF showed up.

There is a reason this debate still rages.
I'd just rather go hunting than argue point and counter point.

 

[mark-hunter]

There have been other PF actions before remington.

 

[Major Khan]

Not sure that it would be a fair comparison between the CRF and PF.
The PF action was introduced in 1949 by Remington with the model 721 (predecessor to the R700).
The Mauser '98 CRF action had a 51 year head start and firm following by the time PF showed up.

There is a reason this debate still rages.
I'd just rather go hunting than argue point and counter point.

Ah yes , Bee Maa. But a little known fact is that Mr. Paul Mauser's very 1st designs prior to his infamous 1898 model ... were actually push feed platforms .
The Model 721s from Remington were beautiful rifles . Sadly , we see so few of them these days .