SOUTH AFRICA: Tootabi Hunting Safaris What Is The Wounded Policy And Billing Issues

[billc]

"Not one of the guys hoping something like this would happen will ever say so and trust me as many of us were hoping loodt would do well there was as many hoping he would fail."

bill i dont think any on here were looking for him to fail.....or i hope there werent? having been in that situation in another business where people seem to take pleasure in hoping it goes tits up, which it hasnt , pisses me off big time. i hope anyone that starts something does well and reaps the benefits, but maybe loodt has been trying to run before he can walk, with the amount of lower cost hunt offers he has been putting on the market in the relatively short time he has been operating?

Mike like you said you seen it first hand yourself and it does happen. I am not saying a lot or would even say it was people who I think are the true members of this site. But trust me some guys were hoping he would fail. His deals are not what are causing the trouble it is the young new ways of doing things. Not thinking things through and rushing stuff that takes time to learn. To eager to prove he can do it on his own. Ever outfitter has dealt with stuff like this but now more then ever it gets brought out for all to see. It is the new ways of the world and like it or not we must all start to learn how to deal with it.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Billc, no one wants to see anyone fail.

All I don't get it how would it end up on here if it was a gentlemanly discussion?

This is the question, I have had bill disputes in the past but it was solved there and then.

I hope this gets resolved for Royals sake today, as it should have been done a considerable time ago already.

My best.

 

[spike.t]

"His deals are not what are causing the trouble it is the young new ways of doing things. Not thinking things through and rushing stuff that takes time to learn. To eager to prove he can do it on his own"

bill that to me is you saying the deals are part of the problem as its all tied in together.........and basically what i said....trying to run before learning to walk..........

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Billc, no one wants to see anyone fail.

All I don't get it how would it end up on here if it was a gentlemanly discussion?

This is the question, I have had bill disputes in the past but it was solved there and then.

I hope this gets resolved for Royals sake today, as it should have been done a considerable time ago already.
No ifs, why possibly's and the client should have this or that.... Hogwash.
My best.

 

[billc]

@billc , very well written post. But the part you state....."many would like to see him fail", I don't agree with that, I have posted on this thread to give my opinion on my thoughts, not to see someone fail. You right we all make mistakes, no one is perfect.

I never had any doubt you were not hoping for that. Lets just say a lot of tears would not have come from more then a few people if he failed.

 

[BRICKBURN]

.................. I know some feel he owes a post now which he does not.

Owes a post?! Nope.
Is it in Loodts' best interest to address this? In my mind, yes.

Making the choices he did to fast on this subject is what caused some of this problem.

I think you may be right. (Back to the "School Fees")

He owes it to royal to make this right not one of us really.

He owes it to Royal and himself to address this. If he wants to build his business and develop any standing in the community at large or on AH community he'll address this in a professional manner. If not....

No matter what happens at this point some have made there minds up already. If he refunds money now it will be said it is only being done because of this thread to save face.
So no way to win really even if fixed the best way for hunter now.

The best way for both of them would have been to have had this addressed at the time of the incident.
But, the horse is out of the barn now!

Because as some think it is all about money right. For those that think that you could not be more wrong. If you ask royal if he wants his money back or if the friendship was worth more to him you may think different.....................

The conflict is about money. If it were all free (Hats, Duiker, Day rate) would this thread have been started? No.
Being taken by a "friend" is likely much more bothersome.


How does someone get motivated to post a problem on a public forum?

Typically, the complainant is getting NO WHERE in private.
Which means reasonable requests for communication on the subject are being ignored.
Then the complainant goes through a personal decision process and gets to the point that they have nothing more to lose and voila, it goes public.
(How agonizing was that decision for Royal? Friend and Trophies, permits, etc. all still have to be dealt with.)

Motives for those threads range from desperate attempts to resolve the issue, to angry attempts to undermine the business or just post fair warning to other hunters.
All hunters/members identify very quickly with Royal or any other hunter in a similar situation.


Whatever the motive: A sponsor on AH has a client from AH that is not happy with an outcome.
I sincerely hope it gets resolved.

​

 

[TokkieM]

Billc I take my hat off to you,loyal to the bitter end Mate.

You are right,no one rides the top of the wave forever and everyone made a mistake here and there.

Breaking a contract is not a mistake,it's a choice and Loodt made that choice based on the facts Royal lay out here. It is also a business transaction like you say,but there is a difference between good and bad business decisions.
You are also very correct in that Loodt does not need to or owe anyone a post here. I would have expected him to though seeing as how many clients he has sourced through AH and how many hunt reports he has replied to as well as the other guys he has approached when they post in hunts wanted. Easy to only skim the cream when it goes well, a real proffesional should also take the other side which is conflict. At least that is how I see a man start to fix a problem. Having you be his spokesman and not standing up for himself is not the way it should be,it reflects poorly on him and his abillity to handle conflict or a crisis situation and no PH should lack the abillity to push through when the chips are down.
You make this out to be one mistake,which it is not,not many Outfitters on AH that get a free pass every time there is a problem.
I can only wonder what the situation would be if Royal did the opposite and did not pay for a trophy animal and extra dayfees.

If Loodt and anyone else feels he is being targeted by other Outfitters then he must also realize he painted that target on his own back the moment he entered the hunting industry in SA,just like everyone else.

I can tell you now that I don't have a issue with Loodt or any other Outfitter here on AH. My issue is purely what actions like this do to the SA hunting industry and the decline in numbers of hunters going to SA because of these and other issues. Sure other countries have the same issue,but I don't call them home.

You are also right when you say if Loodt does fix this it will look like he was painted into a corner to do so. Loodt chose that corner himself when he did not sort this out with Royal before it came to AH on this way. That to me was another mistake on top of the billing and Blue Duiker issue. To me it's never been about money,it was about integrity and doing the right thing.

 

[billc]

Billc, no one wants to see anyone fail.

All I don't get it how would it end up on here if it was a gentlemanly discussion?

This is the question, I have had bill disputes in the past but it was solved there and then.

I hope this gets resolved for Royals sake today, as it should have been done a considerable time ago already.
No ifs, why possibly's and the client should have this or that.... Hogwash.
My best.

How it got here is because royal thought it would help others. Has royal said anymore on if it is getting worked out or if there still working on something that they both think is right. No everyone is just thinking nothing is getting worked out because there not in the loop of ever detail and never will be. Royal thought no matter what happens this should be brought up for all to see and learn from. I know we all think we should know all now that this is out for all to see. It is in all honesty still between royal and loodt. They will both share more on the final outcome and it can be today or week from now that is for them to decide.

As for no one wanting to see anyone fail well your all better men then me then. I am not saying anyone did things to help him try and fail but come on now not everyone hopes everyone makes it either. Fail or lose how ever you want to put it. I am not one to think everyone gets the medal for trying there is winner or losers one fails one makes it.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I'm not worked up at all, I differ in my interpretation of royals post.

In all honesty I believe you are down playing the severity of such a situation.

I commend you for standing and backing the young man the way you are and have in the past, and understand where your loyalty lies.

My best

 

[billc]

hunt hard I just want to say I get all you say and agree with must. I am not happy at all with how it got handled at all. It may come off as I am sticking up for loodt but I am just trying to make my points. In the end if I don't think he has done right I will say so and find another place to hunt.

I am not loodts spokeman and post on my own thoughts. The only thing that is not my own thoughts is the message I passed on from loodt. He is not going to rush and will make a post shortly I believe.

 

[billc]

Guys not sure if you understand I will hang loodt myself if this is not handled right. I am not down playing anything. I am going on the facts that royal has passed on to me that are not in the post. Have pointed out to him were he was wrong and right. My loyality is only to the part of that must do not know all going on. No I don't think loodt is perfect and can do no wrong .I am a friend till someone shows me I should not be one. And that guys goes for loodt ,royal ,Pieter,tim or the other 1 or 2 friends I have.

 

[gizmo]

Bill you are a fierce and loyal friend which is admirable. That being said, this is a big deal. The accusations here are very serious. This appears to be more than a simple misunderstanding otherwise I don't believe it would have been brought to the crew like this. Yes you may have more info then the rest of us but it looks very bad when the person who is accused of wrong doing won't reply. Does he "owe" anyone a reply. Other than Royal, no. Is it liable to be devastating to his business, absolutely. It is very apparent that Royal is very unhappy about the situation. I can assure you that no one wishes for Loodt to fail however, as a professional and a representative sponser of this site everyone expects him to make sound and ethical decisions. Right is right and wrong is wrong. You are right it's not just about money, it's about integrity. I think the point here is that everyone understands that mistakes can be made as everyone makes them and no one is perfect. I know I certainly am not. But.... To violate your own contract to charge a client a fee in violation of that contract, whether it be one dollar or 1 million is highly unethical and wrong. There very well may be more to the story but the one who is able to answer that and should, though not required to, at least make a statement, won't. I certainly would if my morals and integrity were called into question. This website in my mind is a place that people should be able to book a hunt with a sponser and not have to be worried about getting screwed. If a sponser does something that is unethical that effects us all. Whether done intentionally or not. This laundry was aired in the yard for all to see. In any given situation when something like this happens, guilt is generally assumed when the accused won't at least make a statement. It's bad PR.
This is off topic but it has been brought up so here goes. As far as Beans is concerned he has every right in the world to post here whether he is an active member or not. I understand your point but.... There is much to that situation that you are unaware of. He has a dog in this fight too. As many have mentioned previously, there are two sides to every story. I'm not saying you have to like him or agree with him but he certainly has the right to post. I too wish he was in a situation to be able to post more and as he has a wealth of knowledge and experience we could all learn from. Perhaps that may one day happen I don't know.
As I stated earlier, I admire your loyalty to your friend. We would all be lucky to have a friend this loyal. That being said right is right and wrong is wrong. With the information we have this situation is very much wrong if it is as it seems. Is Loodt required to respond, certainly not. Are the consequences of not responding potentially devastating to his reputation? Absolutely. That's business in an industry where reputation is everything. I'm afraid it's to the point where being friends with someone and vouching for their integrity is not sufficient to answer for the accusations. To be clear that is mearly an independant observation and not meant as a "shot" at anyone. If you can step back and take a look at the situation without personal feelings or biases from an outside looking in view point I think you would understand everyone's concern.
God Bless

 

[siml]

Billc, honestly you letting yourself out to dry.

 

[billc]

gizmo I agree and not answering is not good on loodt side at all and he will deal with the fall out from that. If everyone reads my post for what they are I am not taking loodts side and have a friend on both side of this fight. Doing my best to let them both know that and tell them both things they may not like to hear.

As for beans I never said he could not post and even said he is free to do so. If someone is going to jump on the bandwagon go for it but I will jump on to and say my piece about that. If he is free to say what he wants I would say the same goes for me. Some may like it some may not but I don't go around worrying if everyone likes me because it is impossible for everyone to like everyone. I see people for what they are through my eyes and like who I like and don't think much of those I dont like. So how I come across is way different then must but your getting the real me not some fake response. I am about done as I will not defend my actions and people can take them for what there worth. I am not helping anyone by dragging my points. I will make my last points till loodt speaks.

Again for the record I think loodt did wrong. I also think royal did wrong. Both have been told that and they both know were I stand. Both will remain friends of mind but at different levels depending on how things get handled and that has been passed on also. I maybe loyal to a fault but that is me.

 

[ChasingHemingway]

Let's hit the pause button until loodt shares. Opportunity to learn for all - thread is starting to take on a life if it's own. Wishing y'all a blessed day and hoping Royal finds resolution and we all learn from our mistakes and be bold enough to share with others when we fall and/or fail.

dt

 

[gizmo]

Bill understand that was not meant as a shot at you. I very much admire your honesty and straightforwardness. I am simply responding to my interpretation of some of the points you have made.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Let's hit the pause button until loodt shares. Opportunity to learn for all - thread is starting to take on a life if it's own. Wishing y'all a blessed day and hoping Royal finds resolution and we all learn from our mistakes and be bold enough to share with others when we fall and/or fail.

dt

Second!

 

[enysse]

billc, I have known you since day one on AH, you are very loyal friend, you will fight to the end of Earth for your friends. I'm very much like you believe it or not. Some times I have learned to let things go and not print it on social media. I'm not saying you are wrong. I just tired of putting all the fires out over time. It causes to many gray hairs.

Royal and Loodt's situation got blown out of proportion by lack of communication, emotions...whatever. It's happen to me more than a few times. The fact they live thousands of miles apart doesn't help one bit. I have had problems with bills too. And at the end of the hunt, I made it very clear what I'm willing to pay and what I'm not going to pay. And if I felt there was ethically something I added to the hunt to that the outfitter didn't factor into the cost of the hunt I paid too.

Loodt should have got to a computer by now and put the fire out.

 

[siml]

So true...

 

[johnnyblues]

I have been on enough hunts thru out North America, Canada, Alaska, Mexico and New Zealand, that I feel "qualified" to put my two cents in. For me if no blood was found this should be a no brainier. The animal could have reacted to the shot or he could of reacted to the pellets just missing him, we will probably never know. Drawing blood is clearly stated in the contract. I am sure they completely abide by the one drop of blood rule to pay for the animal. therefor they should IMO never have charged you in this situation. As others have stated if you agreed in the heat of the moment you did the right thing by paying...Lesson learned. Thank god it wasn't one of the big 5 where your trophy fee was very costly. Observer fee....well maybe you can give him the benefit of the doubt. Merchandise fee...no no no.. Either it's a gift to help advertise his operation or leave it on a table with a a sign saying how much the items are.