SOUTH AFRICA: Tootabi Hunting Safaris What Is The Wounded Policy And Billing Issues

[Diamondhitch]

...As a point of interest here in Sweden it is illegal to hunt any game without a trained blood tracking dog which must be available within 2 hours of wounding...

Policies like this make me shake my head about our own policy that states that it is illegal to be accompanied by dogs while hunting (including retrieval). Birds and cats are exempted from this rule.

[QUOTE="hunthardsafaris, post: 196707, member: 7749"]...That Royal posted here seems to me a last resort to solve a issue that should never have been one...[/QUOTE]

My take was a little different. I think Royal mentioned this here as a lesson to others about decisions quickly made in the field and possibly while feeling guilty and pressured, not an attempt to slight anyone or gain compensation.

 

[billc]

''Hi Billc, please post on the current Tootabi thread the following: I am currently on a hunt in the Northern Cape and cannot respond the way I want to. I will respond once I am back in office and do a full statement on the course of happenings. I have my phone with me and thus a pain in the back to type and respond in the way I want to on the forum. Take care everyone. Kind regard loodt

 

[billc]

Policies like this make me shake my head about our own policy that states that it is illegal to be accompanied by dogs while hunting (including retrieval). Birds and cats are exempted from this rule.



My take was a little different. I think Royal mentioned this here as a lesson to others about decisions quickly made in the field and possibly while feeling guilty and pressured, not an attempt to slight anyone or gain compensation.

You have it right and some guys are reading more into this then is there. It is a much to teach us all how bad things can happen at anytime and with anyone.

 

[Bobpuckett]

I know Loodt is on a safari in the Kalahari, signal is terrible and access to computers is zero lets give him a few days to state his piece.

 

[Albertaguy]

To a first time safari planner I am watching this thread with great interest ! I always wondered about those wounding policies. I will wait to see what Loodt has to say before I pass judgment but it definitely might influence my decision .

 

[Bobpuckett]

To a first time safari planner I am watching this thread with great interest ! I always wondered about those wounding policies. I will wait to see what Loodt has to say before I pass judgment but it definitely might influence my decision .

Don't let this stop you I don't know Loodt's side of the storey but things like this does happen and it has happened to me. In my case it was a Vaalie we all seen the blood in it's neck so I wrote off that 1200 bucks the good news was a week later I got an email from my PH and Friend Rusty the farm hands found it the cape was no good the Jackals had made a mess of it but the skull and horns were fine getting another cape is no problem. So keep planning and research your outfitter.

 

[TokkieM]

@Diamondhitch I have no doubt that we will all learn something either way.

This post is a question directed at Tootabi asking directly about a animal that was supposedly wounded and extra charges on the final invoice. The fact that Royal needed to ask it here on AH indicates that there are some unresolved issues after his safari which Loodt has not addressed in a manner satisfactory to Royal.
I have already "learned" from this post,but the issue is still up in the air.

 

[gizmo]

@Diamondhitch I have no doubt that we will all learn something either way.

This post is a question directed at Tootabi asking directly about a animal that was supposedly wounded and extra charges on the final invoice. The fact that Royal needed to ask it here on AH indicates that there are some unresolved issues after his safari which Loodt has not addressed in a manner satisfactory to Royal.
I have already "learned" from this post,but the issue is still up in the air.

I have to agree

 

[gizmo]

I'm not trying to go for the jugular but this is an open forum and the situation smells bad. Royal obviously is unhappy with the outcome. Yes we only have one side of the story but if it is as he says that's no way to do business. Mistakes are made yes but it is the outfitters responsibility to handle them. It's also the outfitters responsibility to stick to their own contract and do what is right. The fact the client offered to pay for the animal is completely irrelevant. Clients often do that out of guilt and not knowing what else to do. If it was a clear cut case where there was proof the animal was wounded that's one thing. That, however, doesn't appear to be the case. After using two dogs and spending four hours looking and no sign of a injury it is wrong to expect payment whether offered or not. Period that is also only one of the issues involved too.

 

[ROCKET]

Well.....I really think this is leaving a bitter taste at all in here in our site, especially after being reading the great Royal´s hunting report at Loodt place where I even comment twice.
This is really surprising to me and is good to realize one more time that things happens....!!!

I think that this must bee very important for Royal makes this thread knowing the concequences of a thread like this........it is bitter for me after being reading so many very good hunting reports about Loodt and reading since I become a member, Royal comments and reports here.......I consider both gentelman men.
What really did happens here, I guess We don´t know, must be something very important to push somebody to pop a thread like this.

About wonded animals........many times I have been guiding for Red Stag and the client shoot the Stag rigth in the belly.......I heard the belly sound like a drum wiht the impact from a .300 Mag and the deer react at the hit and run away.......after a long trakking and no blood, no nothing client ask to me......what do you think......I am no thinking, I am tellyng you what I see.........I seen a Deer runing away with a .30 bullet in his belly.......and all of them saids to me you are right.
But in my carreer the 95% of the cases I allways knew if the animal was wounded or not.I will never cheat a hunter.Here We don´t have blood clause, We have confidence and knowledge clause and that´s it.

In Africa does exist the Blood policy soo..........

Between Royal and Loodt........

1) No Blood........no fee, it is what is written, I don´t care if in the bottom of my mind I can come to belive that the duiker is wounded.........again, No Blood, No Fee.

2) For the observer days mistake........someone said it before.......easy.......just count the days.......

3) Caps and shirts.......no doubt......they should never have been charged.
If you want a dozen each......We can speak......

My considerations about.......

If I would hunting with a AH member, in front of an episode of a wounded animal, I would try to ignore it, even taking money from my pocket.......I will not go bankrut for that.......

I would given more merchandaising for free.....for sure......

Mistake on days could be done for sure on bill......

This is an open forum and it is very nice when everything are roses flowers......and when not.....you have to hold it.....!!!!!

Loodt.......I really would like to hear your side being myself a PH.

Royal......why you accepted paid for the Blue....??

What seriuos thing made you write this.....is there something more.....?????

Billc......your position on this is very respectable......I would do the same with two friends of mine.

Mis dos centavos.....!!!!!

 

[Diamondhitch]

Don't let this stop you I don't know Loodt's side of the storey but things like this does happen and it has happened to me. In my case it was a Vaalie we all seen the blood in it's neck so I wrote off that 1200 bucks the good news was a week later I got an email from my PH and Friend Rusty the farm hands found it the cape was no good the Jackals had made a mess of it but the skull and horns were fine getting another cape is no problem. So keep planning and research your outfitter.

This is a good point (even if somewhat off topic). Many times after you leave the PH or landowner will find the carcass and send you your horns (which you have paid for). Very few would try to cheat you out of it if a recovery of any kind is made, before or after your departure.

 

[brushmore]

What seriuos thing made you write this.....is there something more.....?????

I wonder the same thing. I certainly hope Royal and Loodt are still friends. It was Royal's convincing which led me to decide on Tootabi for my first safari!

 

[Pheroze]

I think we really have to press the pause button. If we don't wait for Loodt then we risk assuming some very negative things about him which may influence observers unfairly.

 

[Hank2211]

Just got back from Africa today and saw this thread. With respect to those who have said differently, far too many are saying with they think a reasonable policy should be - as in, are you in favour of no blood no pay, or do you think it's a bad way to go.

But that isn't what this is about. This is about a written agreement that says one thing, and specifies the consequences of that thing. Seems pretty clear to me. No blood, no pay. You might not like it, you might disagree with it, you might think you have a better rule, etc., but it says what it says. And that should be the end of it.

You might also think that "gentlemen" shouldn't rely on contracts, that one's word should be enough. I agree with those who think that, but that's not the world we live in. So if we are going to enter into a written agreement, and then not apply it in the very circumstances it contemplated, what rule should we apply? Client always pays? Outfitter always loses? Toss a coin? This really has nothing to do with what gentlemen would do - since gentlemen live by their agreements, which in this case is the contract. If we start ignoring written agreements and making things up as we go, there will be far more unhappiness, not less, in this world.

Having said that, I know how Royal feels. When you think you've wounded and lost an animal, you feel like s**t and you are likely to say what Royal said, if only to try to atone for your miss. That may be the right thing to do, but I would strongly suggest not to say it in the heat of the moment. As is clear from this thread, and as I have seen all too well, some wounded animals don't bleed at all, and others react to a shot but when you finally get that second shot and bring them down, you find that there was no first shot. In this case, if the dogs didn't come up with the duiker, or couldn't find a trail to follow, I'm convinced. The animals isn't wounded. But once again, that's not relevant. There was a contract here, and if no trace of blood could be found, the animal wasn't wounded, and Royal doesn't have to pay.

For what it's worth, I shot at a blue duiker with a shotgun last year in the Eastern Cape, and all of us - PH, landowner (who was there) and I - said a clean miss (BTW, I challenge Mr. UK to never miss on a blue duiker or any other african animal for that matter). When the dog finally caught up to us, we let him run after the duiker while we went back to the trucks to get to another thicket. Within minutes, we hard the call of a duiker in distress, and guess what, the dog found my duiker with a broken front leg and a pellet in the head.

 

[jeff]

I think the no blood no pay is good , I realize it's not perfect but the only way I would agree to pay if no blood was found is if I saw my arrow sticking out of it when it took off ! Then we could be certain of a wound.

 

[BRICKBURN]

By the way, glad to have you back.

................
You might also think that "gentlemen" shouldn't rely on contracts, that one's word should be enough. I agree with those who think that, but that's not the world we live in. So if we are going to enter into a written agreement, and then not apply it in the very circumstances it contemplated, what rule should we apply? Client always pays? Outfitter always loses? Toss a coin? This really has nothing to do with what gentlemen would do - since gentlemen live by their agreements, which in this case is the contract. If we start ignoring written agreements and making things up as we go, there will be far more unhappiness, not less, in this world.........................

I personally like Hanks suggestion of coin tossing for a decision maker.
My hunting buddies will tell you never to flip a coin with me if there is a big trophy involved. You will lose.
So, any Outfitter want to jump on to the coin tossing thing with me I am good with it.

 

[Bhfs300]

When I was in SA in 2012 it was for an archery hunt and when I got there I was very excited that they were going to film the hunt from the blinds we were using. Went great for the first two animals and I got great coverage of my Blesbuck walking off and then even better if a gold Blue Wildebeest turning and dying in about 30 feet. Things changed when I shot my Impala and hit it high. Saw the arrow going into the bush behind him and said did I even hit him. I found out why they were filming the hunt. We didn't find any blood and didn't even look for the Impala but the PH pulled out the video and showed me that I hit it. Impala hunt over.

A little higher and it would have dropped in its tracks. For the price I wish I would have shot another one.

 

[BRICKBURN]

To clarify, 50 meters or so was as far as the animal was trasked after the shot, not how far or long we looked for the animal. We looked for around four hours before the decision was made to stop. A different dog was also fetched during this tie to see if it could pick up anything the other dogs missed. It did not.

That be a lot of tracking mate. Dogs are not infallible as proven by getting a back up dog. Still no result after thatch effort leaves you wondering.

 

[Hank2211]

By the way, glad to have you back.



I personally like Hanks suggestion of coin tossing for a decision maker.
My hunting buddies will tell you never to flip a coin with me if there is a big trophy involved. You will lose.
So, any Outfitter want to jump on to the coin tossing thing with me I am good with it.

Thanks. Nice to be back. Stay tuned for hunt report.

As for the coin toss, I'm thinking of flipping a coin myself to see if we should. But since I always lose, it's unlikely I'd even get to you.

 

[BRICKBURN]

When I first heard the expression "School Fees" I wondered what it was about. I have since learned what it really means.
This is "School Fees" for Royal and Loodt.
The rest of us get to do some rather inexpensive learning from others experience and thus I hope we can avoid having to pay double.

If you have spent 4 hours and could not find anything(blood) a decision should have been taken that the animal was not hit and that there would not be a trophy fee. I have been in that situation before. I have asked the dog handler to help find blood. That was the proof for us to pay him and the client to pay us. If no blood was found with him and his staff assisting us, a call must be made! Then there is just one!

Interesting thought Beans.
"That was the proof to pay him.." (the landowner/dog handler)
Not just the assertion that the animal jumped or acted funny.
(I have no clue if Loodt was in the field at the time of this hunt and perhaps that will be a telling fact in this process.)
However, the thought does come to mind about a new Outfitter was being bullied into something.

................ All 3 points that Royal has brought up is about $$$$$$$

All three points do relate to money for sure.
Two of them can be a stupid automated billing issue. Still not real bright to have someone not double check an invoice before handing it to a client.
What ever.

The big deal is how a policy and agreement are interpreted properly and professionally.

What will the excuse be this time?

I sure hope there won't be an excuse. An explanation to create an understanding for everyone involved and an education for the rest of us on how to avoid the nightmare.

I figured you would crawl out of your hole over this one. ..................
.................... not to just come around when they can make cheap shoots. ............

I'll join Beans and crawl out of my hole now.
Anyone with Beans experience and knowledge in this field is more than welcome to jump into any discussion on AH and share his insight.
Been there, done that and wrote home counts!

Cheap shot?
It is about money and professional judgment?
Apparently, the exercise of that same judgement has you personally wondering where to fill your dance card.

If this is a rookie mistake and it turns out to be pricey "School Fees" so be it.
Suck it up and learn the lesson.