Safari Rifle Market-Have we reached the point of no return on cost?

[coreydb]

I have $2200 in parts for one custom pg rifle. If you were to buy it from an outfit like Gunwerks or another build to order company, it'd be north of $5000.

Amen Brother! That's why I go Cheap Charlie on my rifles....All go, no show.

 

[Tex .416]

I built my 404J on a 98 Mauser for ~$2,500. I figure my daughter should be able to sell it for that after I cash in. Probably more if she's patient and throws in the loading components.

Do her a favor and sell it while you are alive to answer questions.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Tex, the firearm “estate” buzzards are cursing you right now.
They swoop in. Tell the family all the sad tales.
I have to pack these up. inventory them, store them, advertise them. It could take years to recoup my money. All I can offer is 10 cents on the dollar.

Then they flash what seems like a large sum of money and the family has no idea it’s 1/10 the value and grab the cash in hand.

Then we see it for sale at 120% of value.
Sorry, but many are Ambulance chasers of the firearm world.

 

[Josh P]

Tex, the firearm “estate” buzzards are cursing you right now.
They swoop in. Tell the family all the sad tales.
I have to pack these up. inventory them, store them, advertise them. It could take years to recoup my money. All I can offer is 10 cents on the dollar.

Then they flash what seems like a large sum of money and the family has no idea it’s 1/10 the value and grab the cash in hand.

Then we see it for sale at 120% of value.
Sorry, but many are Ambulance chasers of the firearm world.

I respect my friend and old boss for how he conducts estate purchases. There are indeed the costs of storage, rate of resale, etc., but he always offers good money and tells them if there are gems in their collection. I wouldn’t have been able to work for an ambulance chaser and keep a satisfied conscience, and I don’t know how some of those guys sleep at night.

 

[coreydb]

I have to agree. I bought several firearms from a co-worker who acted as an agent if you will, for the widow of his deceased friend to sell his guns. She didn't want them, just wanted them gone.......I got some verrry good deals.

 

[ThreeJacks]

@zepher nails it! If one buys fine firearms at a good price, those firearms will hold value over the short term and gain value over the long term. No, most won't increase in value as much as even a good index fund, but it is not like throwing money away.

I have been a firearms affectionado, i.e. gun nut since age 11. While my safes do not hold $50,000 rifles and shotguns, there are many very nice rifles and a few shotguns that won't embarrass my hunting dog!

I have long pondered that some collect things be they guns, watches, cars and so on. Others collect trophy heads to mount in their man caves. Then some collect adventures such as the next hunt in Uganda or other seldom seen places. I believe many of us fall within two or more of these categories.

As a gun collector, I have a few rifles that I will keep until I grow far too old to enjoy them. These or those that I've hunted will like my custom M98 in .22-250 that together we've slain hundreds of woodchucks some 40 years ago. Another is my Heym 88B in .458 Win. I've recorded over 750 shots which I've put down her tubes and taken buffalo, giraffe, zebra, lioness, and a tuskless with her.

Since I have no heirs that would appreciate my rifles a tenth as much as I do, most will be sold to new caretakers one or two at a time. Some of those sales will fund my last African hunt. My most cherished guns will part my caretaking about the time I need a walker to go from room to room.

Based on what I have seen you sell, let me know when you have another to re-home.

 

[Rare Breed]

I would say not really. Allow me to defend the statement.

I have seen bedraggled, then restored pre-war British double rifles on this forum and elsewhere many times. Is it collectible? Not in the least, its been molested, restocked, barrels have pits blacked over, the engraving on the action is very thin, it's just a working tool.

But do I dislike them? No. I've had many friends on AH and elsewhere show me rifles that look like the above and they lay this at my feet. "Rookhawk, I only can afford $15k, this is what I found". I do my best to evaluate the tool, I tell them about the warts, and I render an opinion based on their budget on whether that is their best alternative option. A vintage british double rifle with zero collector value at a pricepoint in the teens is 100% better rifle than the modern double rifles are at that pricepoint. (Disclaimer: Every rifle is unique, I'm assuming its "functional" and without latent defects)

I don't mean to seem disagreeable with my answer, but old doesn't mean valuable, but in the case of old and British it usually means a very serviceable tool for the task. There is probably a bit of "functional art" left into the lowliest of poorly restored pre-war British double rifles too.

I love @rookhawk response here! My 1905 Rigby 450 NE is a perfect example. JJ Perodeau said great rifle after his repairs. Yet in no way is it a collectors rifle after the work done to it even by great well respected gunsmiths. It is a very functional DR still made by Rigby London with my having the certificate of its creation from Rigby. I knew this when I bought it and am very happy!

 

[Safari Dave]

IMO, tangible items (rifles, ammo, reloading components, gold, silver, blocks of lead) are probably always a better investment than US dollars.

 

[uplander01]

I would say not really. Allow me to defend the statement.

I have seen bedraggled, then restored pre-war British double rifles on this forum and elsewhere many times. Is it collectible? Not in the least, its been molested, restocked, barrels have pits blacked over, the engraving on the action is very thin, it's just a working tool.

But do I dislike them? No. I've had many friends on AH and elsewhere show me rifles that look like the above and they lay this at my feet. "Rookhawk, I only can afford $15k, this is what I found". I do my best to evaluate the tool, I tell them about the warts, and I render an opinion based on their budget on whether that is their best alternative option. A vintage british double rifle with zero collector value at a pricepoint in the teens is 100% better rifle than the modern double rifles are at that pricepoint. (Disclaimer: Every rifle is unique, I'm assuming its "functional" and without latent defects)

I don't mean to seem disagreeable with my answer, but old doesn't mean valuable, but in the case of old and British it usually means a very serviceable tool for the task. There is probably a bit of "functional art" left into the lowliest of poorly restored pre-war British double rifles too.

I might argue a little on this one rookhawk. It was normal for a gentleman from the halcyon days to return to Britain and have his entire arsenal refurbished. Properly restored firearms from that era done by a British maker are absolutely collector items.

 

[fourfive8]

The survey itself explains the disconnect when discussing/debating different issues here. It’s called being tone deaf. I don’t have a rifle, value or cost, within the parameters of the choices in the survey. Currently I have 5 rifles that could be called “safari rifles”. All bolt action. None cost over 1500. They’ve even been to Africa on “safari” All of them are accurate and 100% reliable. I’ve never shot a factory round through any of them.
1 plains game- 338-06
2 multi purpose- 375 HH
2 DG- 416 Rem Mag, 450 Watts

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I read this post and decided that I want to try to see how many brands of big bore rifles (.375 bore or larger) are in current production. Here’s what I’ve come up with:

FRANCE
Chapuis
Dorleac & Dorleac

I don’t know if Verney Carron’s back in business or not after their bankruptcy issues.

SPAIN
Grulla
Larm

AYA is possibly bankrupt

ITALY
Armeria Concarri
Piotti
Rizzini
Sabatti

AUSTRIA
Peter Hofer
Hambrusch

GERMANY
Heym
Kreighoff
Merkel
Reimer Johanssen
Waffen Prechtll
Mauser
Sauer
Blaser

FINLAND
Sako

GREAT BRITAIN
James Purdey
Westley Richards
John Rigby
Holland & Holland
Watson Brothers
Joseph Lang
William Moore
Charles Lancaster
WJ Jeffery

South Africa
Ralph Badenhorst
Musgrave
Bloemfontein Rifles

United States
Winchester (although the rifles themselves are made in either Portugal or Japan)
Ruger
Griffin & Howe
Park West Arms
Joe Smithson
Todd Ramirez
Ryan Breeding
John Boliger
Bailey Bradshaw

And dozens of small scale custom rifle makers.

Hey, that’s over 40 brands ! You young people really are spoilt for choice.

I probably missed one or two names.


Although to be fair, the only ones which are affordable to most working class hunters are probably:
Ruger
Winchester
Mauser (albeit much more expensive than the other two)

 

[uplander01]

What interesting conversation.....the real question is why is the 20-30k price point so empty for buyers,....kinda where things just start to get interesting?

 

[318AE]

I might argue a little on this one rookhawk. It was normal for a gentleman from the halcyon days to return to Britain and have his entire arsenal refurbished. Properly restored firearms from that era done by a British maker are absolutely collector items.

That’s spot on. We’ve covered this point before. Pre-64 Winchester collectors (and many others, I’ve seen the same thing with C2/C3 Corvettes etc) put a very high premium on originality. Right down to the oil finish and original recoil pad etc. Generally speaking, pre-war British guns can be used, properly restored or maintained by their maker, or even a maker of similar quality, and maintain their value and collectibility very, very well.

I think some of this may be due to the fact that there really are a lot of Winchesters, so only the most unused, originals make it to the collections. There is a premium on the rare chamberings and configurations too of course, provided there is confidence it was actually done by the factory custom shop.

With pre-war British guns, each is essentially hand made and unique, and there are not that many of them. Comparing their prices to newly made British firearms is also misleading. The price of a newly made Westley Richards is largely due to the experience itself of purchasing one, and having it made to your exact specifications.

In some markets, “it’s only original once”. In other markets, “its only bespoke once”.

I think Rookhawk these last few months said that all the great saddle makers were dead, neetsfoot oil will rot your saddle, the original factory load for a 458 win mag was 400gr at 2400 fps and a few others things. He and OH are very quick in their opinions, Just take it all in context.

 

[Pondoro]

I read this post and decided that I want to try to see how many brands of big bore rifles (.375 bore or larger) are in current production. Here’s what I’ve come up with:

FRANCE
Chapuis
Dorleac & Dorleac

I don’t know if Verney Carron’s back in business or not after their bankruptcy issues.

SPAIN
Grulla
Larm

AYA is possibly bankrupt

ITALY
Armeria Concarri
Piotti
Rizzini
Sabatti

AUSTRIA
Peter Hofer
Hambrusch

GERMANY
Heym
Kreighoff
Merkel
Reimer Johanssen
Waffen Prechtll
Mauser
Sauer
Blaser

FINLAND
Sako

GREAT BRITAIN
James Purdey
Westley Richards
John Rigby
Holland & Holland
Watson Brothers
Joseph Lang
William Moore
Charles Lancaster
WJ Jeffery

South Africa
Ralph Badenhorst
Musgrave
Bloemfontein Rifles

United States
Winchester (although the rifles themselves are made in either Portugal or Japan)
Ruger
Griffin & Howe
Park West Arms
Joe Smithson
Todd Ramirez
Ryan Breeding
John Boliger
Bailey Bradshaw

And dozens of small scale custom rifle makers.

Hey, that’s over 40 brands ! You young people really are spoilt for choice.

I probably missed one or two names.


Although to be fair, the only ones which are affordable to most working class hunters are probably:
Ruger
Winchester
Mauser (albeit much more expensive than the other two)

You can add Johann Fanzoj to Austria and Hartmann & Weiss to Germany

 

[Twraska]

I read this post and decided that I want to try to see how many brands of big bore rifles (.375 bore or larger) are in current production. Here’s what I’ve come up with:

FRANCE
Chapuis
Dorleac & Dorleac

I don’t know if Verney Carron’s back in business or not after their bankruptcy issues.

SPAIN
Grulla
Larm

AYA is possibly bankrupt

ITALY
Armeria Concarri
Piotti
Rizzini
Sabatti

AUSTRIA
Peter Hofer
Hambrusch

GERMANY
Heym
Kreighoff
Merkel
Reimer Johanssen
Waffen Prechtll
Mauser
Sauer
Blaser

FINLAND
Sako

GREAT BRITAIN
James Purdey
Westley Richards
John Rigby
Holland & Holland
Watson Brothers
Joseph Lang
William Moore
Charles Lancaster
WJ Jeffery

South Africa
Ralph Badenhorst
Musgrave
Bloemfontein Rifles

United States
Winchester (although the rifles themselves are made in either Portugal or Japan)
Ruger
Griffin & Howe
Park West Arms
Joe Smithson
Todd Ramirez
Ryan Breeding
John Boliger
Bailey Bradshaw

And dozens of small scale custom rifle makers.

Hey, that’s over 40 brands ! You young people really are spoilt for choice.

I probably missed one or two names.


Although to be fair, the only ones which are affordable to most working class hunters are probably:
Ruger
Winchester
Mauser (albeit much more expensive than the other two)

Weatherby

 

[rookhawk]

I think Rookhawk these last few months said that all the great saddle makers were dead, neetsfoot oil will rot your saddle, the original factory load for a 458 win mag was 400gr at 2400 fps and a few others things. He and OH are very quick in their opinions, Just take it all in context.

Your assertion was to disparage my claims and I would say it was inappropriate and I hold majority opinions on these topics. But its also a logical fallacy that if I'm wrong on what softdrink is most popular in Texas during the 1990s, therefore I don't know anything about London Guns.

1.) I specifically thanked you for correcting my error on 458WM original load. When I'm wrong, I stand up and say so, you spiking the football is not good spirited.

2.) Regarding the Golden Era of Saddle Making, the web and auction houses reflect this sentiment that agrees with my concept of art, even though I don't care one iota about horses or saddles:

3.) You believe neatsfoot oil isn't harmful to organic fibers. I did spend about 42 years of my life working with leather and that is what I was taught by experts in the field. The Interweb says the following:

In short, you didn't choose to disagree with data, you dismissed me using an ad hominem argument.

 

[steve white]

You have to pay to play. A Westley Richards is not going to sell for pedestrian prices. Or at least the economic downturn which would make that possible would be worse than the cure.
Fortunately there are guns other than WR that go "bang."

 

[IA1865]

One reason you’re seeing more guns of that price caliber is because their owners are aging out and not using them or their heirs have no interest in them. You’re likely to see this keep happening.

I’ve begin to fall into the same boat as @Red Leg and am considering taking a 1908 built Westley Richards Droplock to the Zambeze Delta of Mozambique after Buffalo. I used to be in the same camp as @375Fox. I’m still like him with flights. I prefer to fly economy than spend the money on a Business Class of First Class Seat. To each their own, as long as at the end of the day you’re hunting.

This is exactly how I was able to pick up my 1910's W.J. Jeffery in 404. Seller was too old to hunt anymore and none of his children or grandchildren were interested. He wanted it to go to someone who would take it back to Africa. There are deals out there to be had.

 

[Daniel Cary]

(Several years ago, ie.)

MFR's had displays, unspoken for. 20% Off.
Great builders still taking clients. CZ brought an affordable Renaissance. Nosler, buy one get one Free. $2500 Sako, short lived. RSM's. AHR

S2's flooded & affordable.
No 5 year wait lists.
Economics.

State Farm & MI, no longer covers PIP .. that just went up!