Are we cleaning our guns to death?

[Russ16]

Probably not apples to apples but every precision shooter I talk to clean down to bare metal after every visit to the range or competition. I do the same on my precision rifle, but I also do the same on my hunting rifles, say every 200 rounds.

Interesting. Recent Hornady podcast on gun cleaning with some too PRS shooters said they clean when accuracy starts to degrade.

 

[Doug3006]

I think that many shooters clean their rifles too frequently and too thoroughly. It’s just not necessary. In fact, most of my rifles shoot better with a modicum of copper fouling. Now, the notion that more guns are damaged by over cleaning than other causes seems doubtful. With the exception of obvious no-nos like using hardened steel cleaning rods or gritty solvents, it’s hard for me to believe much damage is being done. I have a few gunsmith friends and none of them have ever cited cleaning as a problem. Worn out barrels are more often than not the result of “sporty” hand loads. In terms of repairs, most of their work stems from nimrods disassembling their guns without the proper tools or knowledge!

 

[steve white]

Well, for shotguns the best method I have found is to have a dedicated rod and brush with 0000 steel wool wound on the brush and the rod chucked in a drill. Put a bit of solvent of your choice and run it in and out at medium speed spin. Helps to put the rod through a deprimed spent shot shell (or your favorite bushing) to keep it centered. It will remove all plastic, lead and whatever and burnish the bore YES WITHOUT REMOVING MEASURABLE METAL, GUARANTEED. Guaranteed by Ralph Walker, author of Shotgun Gunsmithing, who had the wherewithal to measure barrel walls and stated such. You'll like it, and it's quick as a flash.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Are there any reloading recipes for 375 H&H using CFE223 or other CFE powders?

@steve white
CFE223 can be used in a lot of cartridges from 222rem to 458 including the 375 H&H
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Interesting. Recent Hornady podcast on gun cleaning with some too PRS shooters said they clean when accuracy starts to degrade.

@Russ16
So they are now doing what I have been telling people for years.
Dang I knew I was right and the bench rest boys were wasting time, now Hornady is confirming it
WOW
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I think that many shooters clean their rifles too frequently and too thoroughly. It’s just not necessary. In fact, most of my rifles shoot better with a modicum of copper fouling. Now, the notion that more guns are damaged by over cleaning than other causes seems doubtful. With the exception of obvious no-nos like using hardened steel cleaning rods or gritty solvents, it’s hard for me to believe much damage is being done. I have a few gunsmith friends and none of them have ever cited cleaning as a problem. Worn out barrels are more often than not the result of “sporty” hand loads. In terms of repairs, most of their work stems from nimrods disassembling their guns without the proper tools or knowledge!

@Doug3006
Cleaning is only part of the problem.
Improper cleaning is the biggest problem. Not using bore guides and pulling the brush backwards from the muzzle there by damaging the muzzle. You don't pull a patch backwards thru a barrel when it's dirty so why do it with a brush.
I've never seen a bullet travel from the muzzle to the breech so why does my cleaning gear. Oh that's right mine doesn't.
A lot of rifles, unless you have a really good barrel usually need a couple of foulers to settle back down after cleaning.
Clean it just so you have to dirty it again to get it to shoot properly just don't make sense to me.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Well, for shotguns the best method I have found is to have a dedicated rod and brush with 0000 steel wool wound on the brush and the rod chucked in a drill. Put a bit of solvent of your choice and run it in and out at medium speed spin. Helps to put the rod through a deprimed spent shot shell (or your favorite bushing) to keep it centered. It will remove all plastic, lead and whatever and burnish the bore YES WITHOUT REMOVING MEASURABLE METAL, GUARANTEED. Guaranteed by Ralph Walker, author of Shotgun Gunsmithing, who had the wherewithal to measure barrel walls and stated such. You'll like it, and it's quick as a flash.

@steve white
Why use 0000steel wool when BRASS wool is readily available. Maybe a bit dearer but not as harmful.
Plus it removes surface rust without harming the blueing.
Bob

 

[skydiver386]

@steve white
Why use 0000steel wool when BRASS wool is readily available. Maybe a bit dearer but not as harmful.
Plus it removes surface rust without harming the blueing.
Bob

Exactly. Brass or Copper wool would be far better. Both are available at every hardware store in my town.

 

[Bonk]

I always get a kick out of the idea that somehow a properly used bore brush or cleaning rod will damage your rifle. We seem to forget that an explosion with lots of heat, 10’s of thousands of lbs of pressure and large chunks of metal travelling at supersonic velocities happen every time you pull the trigger. Unless you’re an absolute gorilla there’s nothing you can do while cleaning your gun that even approaches the ‘damage’ done by simply firing it.

As to whether or not barrel break in is necessary I’ll defer to the Jedi Master himself, Gale McMillan. He says it probably does more harm than good and doesn’t recommend it. Good enough for me.

 

[skydiver386]

I always get a kick out of the idea that somehow a properly used bore brush or cleaning rod will damage your rifle. We seem to forget that an explosion with lots of heat, 10’s of thousands of lbs of pressure and large chunks of metal travelling at supersonic velocities happen every time you pull the trigger. Unless you’re an absolute gorilla there’s nothing you can do while cleaning your gun that even approaches the ‘damage’ done by simply firing it.

As to whether or not barrel break in is necessary I’ll defer to the Jedi Master himself, Gale McMillan. He says it probably does more harm than good and doesn’t recommend it. Good enough for me.

BUTT...

It's the improper use of a cleaning rod that can damage the throat or crown of the rifling. As some have already posted, bore guides are essential and never clean from the muzzle end.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Generally my rifles get cleaned after shooting if they will be stored for a while. When I say cleaned it is a couple patches with Hoppes No.9 until they quit coming out black, maybe a dozen. And often get a dry patch or two before shooting.

 

[Bonk]

@skydiver386

??????

What’s the point of a bore guide if I’m never supposed to clean from the muzzle end?

I own too many rifles that would require gunsmith level disassembly to avoid cleaning from the muzzle end. All my lever action and non AR style semiautomatic rifle barrels are cleaned from the muzzle end. I do own a bore guide but I can’t remember the last time I used it. Probably not in this century.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

My cleaning methods depend on caliber and barrel quality. Low quality rimmfires are one thing, hand lapped center-fire barrels are another.

View attachment 710249
The barrel on the left is going to accumulate more fouling than the one on the right, all else being equal. Some rough bores shoot better with some copper or lead fouling that fills in the pits in a barrel like the one on the left, some shoot better when cleaned down to bare steel.
View attachment 710250
Many hammer forged barrels look this one. The drill used to make the initial hole through the barrel left marks horizontal to the bullet travel, and this will strip bullet jacket material off with every round fired. These barrels are fine for a hunting rifle that will fire one box of ammo per year, but would be totally unacceptable to a Match shooter.
View attachment 710253
In this barrel, you can see the tool marks in the bottom of the rifling grooves, but smooth on the tops of the lands. Barrels like this will often shoot with excellent accuracy, but that accuracy falls off quickly. These grooves fill with material stripped off the bullet as it travels down the bore, and if not removed by cleaning, will cause corrosion and loss of accuracy.

Any rifle with a hammer forged barrel that isn't lapped between drilling the bore and the hammer forging process is bound to look like this, and will be a pain to clean. Remington and Ruger factory barrels are often the worst.

My rimfires are cleaned with patches soaked with Hoppes on a Jag from the breech end if possible. Once clean patches appear I use dry patches, then a final patch with oil. NEVER clean a rimfire with a rod from the muzzle end. A hundred passes with a Bore Snake from the breech end is better than buggering the crown of the muzzle with a cleaning rod. Some rough rimfire barrels require a brush soaked in lead solvent, but these are rare.

Center fire rifles use the same method, but use a mild Copper solvent. No need for brushes, just patches, jag and plenty of patches followed by oil to prevent corrosion while it sits in the gun safe.

One final note. In my experience, if an individual rifle accumulates excessive copper fouling with Barnes X or other Mono metal bullets, it's usually because the bore looks like one of the barrels in the pictures above.

Thanks for the great pics. I have bbls that match each of those.

Funny that two of my most accurate hunting rifles have bbls that look exactly like this photo. When I first saw them, I thought there was no way in hell that they would shoot well, but I was proven wrong.
Regarding cleaning methods. I almost never use copper solvents on my bbls. I want to retain the good copper fouling in the pits and voids of the bbl surface while removing it from the rest of the bbl. A fine hand lapped match bbl will clean up completely and very quickly but will still have very small, microscopic voids in the surface of the bbl and we want to fill those voids with the copper fouling to create and maintain a smoother inner bbl surface. Cleaning with strong copper solvents removes that valuable fouling along with all the rest. It will take several shots to restore the fouling and accuracy to its peak level. This is why many shooters claim that cleaning their barrel ruined the accuracy.

So, if the strong solvents are not the best answer, what should we do? I run a patch wet with carbon solvent thru the bbl to swab out powder residue and any carbon build up. Then, I take a tight fitting patch and add a few drops of a "Mild" abrasive product. My favorite is one called KG#2 but there are others. This is not capable of removing steel from the bbl and is not a lapping compound. It is however, capable of scouring away some or most of the surface copper fouling from the bbl while leaving any fouling built up in the voids of the surface of the steel walls of the bbl.

The process is not time consuming. I make about 6 passes over the first 6" of the chamber end of the bbl. Then I increase the length of the stroke to 12" and then 18" and so on, until the patch comes out the muzzle. I follow this cleaning step with several wet patches using carbon solvent only. No Hoppes, no Sweets, none of those. The goal is to clean out all of the abrasive residue. Then I use 2-3 dry patches to remove the solvent and finish with one patch lightly wet with Kroil to prevent rust.

The result is a rifle that has a clean, cold bore shot that is as close to the same as a fouled warm bore shot as possible. For target shooting, I clean with one dry patch to remove oil and shoot. For hunting rifles, I will patch it and then shoot one shot to foul the bbl a day or two before the hunt and then clean it again after all hunting is over. This cleaning process takes only 5 min and does not damage the bbl at all. If you scope a cleaned bbl using this process, it is rare to not see some copper remaining and I want that to help maintain top performance. While a rifle that is shot a great deal will eventually develop some heat checking and other erosion of the throat of the bbl, it is a very slow process on a hunting rifle as they do not get shot hundreds of times in each session. This is not the case with a target rifle or a varmint rifle used for prairie dogs for example. Those do wear out faster.

Rimfire - the same process will work for rimfire but in their case, the fouling is both wax lube and lead along with the powder residues. With rimfire, I just use fewer strokes since that kind of fouling is easy to scrub out and does not require lots of elbow grease. I do soak the chamber with my carbon solvent first since the rimfire ammo seems to create a hard carbon ring right at the front of the chamber. I am not claiming that my way is the "only" way that works. But, I have found it to work consistently with lots of different rifles and calibers from 22lr and 17 rimfire to big bore centerfire and all in between.

I have a friend who has a old 30-06 hunting rifle and one of his other friends cleaned the bore with an electrolysis process. It lost all of its accuracy. Because the cleaning removed all of the copper fouling including the good fouling that had built up in the pores of the steel surface in the bbl. It has taken lots of rounds and a few cleaning sessions using my cleaning method to restore some of the accuracy that was lost when he had it cleaned incorrectly. Copper solvent cleaning is not as detrimental unless you let it soak for long periods of time. But is always removes some of the good fouling and usually requires a few or a lot of shots to get it back depending on how smooth the bbl is to begin with.

Obviously, this process is less beneficial when applied to a very smooth, polished, hand lapped match bbls. That is in part, why they are prepared that way. There are fewer voids to fill and thus, less change will occur from copper build up. Bad fouling with copper will still build up and will still need to be removed regardless of the process you choose to clean it. My process will still work, but the benefits will be smaller since the bbl on a hand lapped match bbl is better to begin with.

 

[skydiver386]

Thanks for the great pics. I have bbls that match each of those.

View attachment 710464
Funny that two of my most accurate hunting rifles have bbls that look exactly like this photo. When I first saw them, I thought there was no way in hell that they would shoot well, but I was proven wrong.
Regarding cleaning methods. I almost never use copper solvents on my bbls. I want to retain the good copper fouling in the pits and voids of the bbl surface while removing it from the rest of the bbl. A fine hand lapped match bbl will clean up completely and very quickly but will still have very small, microscopic voids in the surface of the bbl and we want to fill those voids with the copper fouling to create and maintain a smoother inner bbl surface. Cleaning with strong copper solvents removes that valuable fouling along with all the rest. It will take several shots to restore the fouling and accuracy to its peak level. This is why many shooters claim that cleaning their barrel ruined the accuracy.

So, if the strong solvents are not the best answer, what should we do? I run a patch wet with carbon solvent thru the bbl to swab out powder residue and any carbon build up. Then, I take a tight fitting patch and add a few drops of a "Mild" abrasive product. My favorite is one called KG#2 but there are others. This is not capable of removing steel from the bbl and is not a lapping compound. It is however, capable of scouring away some or most of the surface copper fouling from the bbl while leaving any fouling built up in the voids of the surface of the steel walls of the bbl.

The process is not time consuming. I make about 6 passes over the first 6" of the chamber end of the bbl. Then I increase the length of the stroke to 12" and then 18" and so on, until the patch comes out the muzzle. I follow this cleaning step with several wet patches using carbon solvent only. No Hoppes, no Sweets, none of those. The goal is to clean out all of the abrasive residue. Then I use 2-3 dry patches to remove the solvent and finish with one patch lightly wet with Kroil to prevent rust.

The result is a rifle that has a clean, cold bore shot that is as close to the same as a fouled warm bore shot as possible. For target shooting, I clean with one dry patch to remove oil and shoot. For hunting rifles, I will patch it and then shoot one shot to foul the bbl a day or two before the hunt and then clean it again after all hunting is over. This cleaning process takes only 5 min and does not damage the bbl at all. If you scope a cleaned bbl using this process, it is rare to not see some copper remaining and I want that to help maintain top performance. While a rifle that is shot a great deal will eventually develop some heat checking and other erosion of the throat of the bbl, it is a very slow process on a hunting rifle as they do not get shot hundreds of times in each session. This is not the case with a target rifle or a varmint rifle used for prairie dogs for example. Those do wear out faster.

Rimfire - the same process will work for rimfire but in their case, the fouling is both wax lube and lead along with the powder residues. With rimfire, I just use fewer strokes since that kind of fouling is easy to scrub out and does not require lots of elbow grease. I do soak the chamber with my carbon solvent first since the rimfire ammo seems to create a hard carbon ring right at the front of the chamber. I am not claiming that my way is the "only" way that works. But, I have found it to work consistently with lots of different rifles and calibers from 22lr and 17 rimfire to big bore centerfire and all in between.

I have a friend who has a old 30-06 hunting rifle and one of his other friends cleaned the bore with an electrolysis process. It lost all of its accuracy. Because the cleaning removed all of the copper fouling including the good fouling that had built up in the pores of the steel surface in the bbl. It has taken lots of rounds and a few cleaning sessions using my cleaning method to restore some of the accuracy that was lost when he had it cleaned incorrectly. Copper solvent cleaning is not as detrimental unless you let it soak for long periods of time. But is always removes some of the good fouling and usually requires a few or a lot of shots to get it back depending on how smooth the bbl is to begin with.

Obviously, this process is less beneficial when applied to a very smooth, polished, hand lapped match bbls. That is in part, why they are prepared that way. There are fewer voids to fill and thus, less change will occur from copper build up. Bad fouling with copper will still build up and will still need to be removed regardless of the process you choose to clean it. My process will still work, but the benefits will be smaller since the bbl on a hand lapped match bbl is better to begin with.

Very well said. There are tools and methods that apply to all firearms in order to avoid damage to the crown, throat or lands of the rifling. There are also proper cleaning methods that apply to each bore condition and age, etc.

Firearms that normally use lead bullets with no jacket, like rimfire, muzzle loaders and Black Powder Cartridge firearms should be cleaned differently from those that use jacketed bullets, or mono metal bullets.

I have everything from $5,000 Olympic level 10 meter air rifles, to heavy caliber DG rifles and long range target rifles. Each one has tools and a cleaning method suitable for that type of rifle.

 

[RobBrown505]

What thoughts/experience can anyone share about the JB non-embedding bore cleaning compound? I’ve always wondered about this. One person recommended using JB to address tooling marks on new barrels but, like others, I’ve never done a barrel break in and I have some stunningly accurate rifles that don’t seem hard to clean.

 

[skydiver386]

What thoughts/experience can anyone share about the JB non-embedding bore cleaning compound? I’ve always wondered about this. One person recommended using JB to address tooling marks on new barrels but, like others, I’ve never done a barrel break in and I have some stunningly accurate rifles that don’t seem hard to clean.

I have seen really rough factory barrels improved with proper lapping, but I've also seen barrels ruined and made oversized from aggressive lapping. That's why a bore scope and proper tools are essential. You want to remove just barely enough material to smooth out any tool marks and NO MORE.

Shooting bullets coated with abrasives is a half fast way to do things. Hand lapping is best left to those with experience, or at least someone who has studied it well enough to know what needs to be done.

 

[Russ16]

What thoughts/experience can anyone share about the JB non-embedding bore cleaning compound? I’ve always wondered about this. One person recommended using JB to address tooling marks on new barrels but, like others, I’ve never done a barrel break in and I have some stunningly accurate rifles that don’t seem hard to clean.

Back in the early 90s many gun writers in reloaded magazine swore by JB compound and Kroil to clean guns. I used to use that method almost exclusively. Wet the bore with Kroil then smear a wet patch with JB and run it through with short strokes. Dry patch then Kroil then dry patch. Repeat until final patches are clean.

It works great and is still what I do on a NIB gun to get any residual machine oil etc out. I really only stopped because it is sort of time consuming. I do believe it is easier on the bore than wire brushes.

This is the blue labeled JB the red version I have not used and have heard can do too much polishing.

 

[Cooposo]

This thread has been helping with questions I’ve had for a long time. Can someone please expound on the below ideas or correct me if I’m wrong? This is not meant to be sarcastic or provocative. I’m really trying to decide what I should change in my cleaning approach. I’m no gunsmith. Walking through things:

1) I pull the trigger and send a bullet through the barrel. This barrel has some imperfections in terms of tooling marks, pits, voids, etc.

2) With the shot, some amount of copper fouling from the bullet is deposited on the surface of the bore. Some of this copper fouling is a good thing in terms of accuracy, and removing it should not be pursued unless accuracy in the rifle is starting to fall off. BUT some people don’t believe that or their individual rifle doesn’t hold to that, so they frequently clean that copper off back down to the bare bore metal.

3) With the shot, burning powder causes carbon deposit throughout the bore, and this is often worse at the throat and at the muzzle if using a suppressor or muzzle brake. This carbon is not a big deal, but should be cleaned out if accuracy starts to degrade or pressure starts to build. BUT some people believe that this carbon buildup is a problem no matter what (given that it introduces a variable) and should be at least partially removed after every practice session. Some people think it should be completely removed so any new shooting is through a carbon free barrel.

4) With the shot and with use, other residue besides the above copper and carbon will remain on the surface of the bore. Some shooters believe these other chemicals, rust, and residues are not a big deal and do not necessitate cleaning. Others use gun oil or another product to clean or neutralize them after every shooting session, out of fear that they will contribute to corrosion of the bore.
5) Some people believe the tools themselves used in cleaning can damage chambers, throats, bores, and or crowns. That potential damage is more of a risk to permanent accuracy than any of 1-4, so best not to clean or to do so under very controlled circumstances- using bore guides, only cleaning in certain directions, only using patches or plastic brushes, etc. Another camp uses abrasives in pursuit of a good clean. Another camp says there’s no way our cleaning tools can account for anywhere near the damage that the explosion of shooting a bullet down the barrel can cause, so don’t even worry about that aspect whether you clean frequently or not.

6) One camp backs up their position with pictures from a bore scope (I find these super interesting, by the way) illustrating the above principles. Another camp says stop worrying about what the bore looks like, just shoot the rifle and then clean it if accuracy falls off.

So someone who wants to diligently clean, remove carbon, and remove copper has ample reasons to do so. But someone who wants to superficially and quickly clean has some good evidence for taking this approach. But someone who never wants to clean has strong arguments…to not to.

But in general, the trend within the industry is less cleaning than has been the tradition in years past.

What am I missing? What am I not understanding? Or is there never going to be a consensus on all this and thus no reason to change my approach? And, most importantly, which of the above points have been so abundantly proven or disproven that I should not even consider them?

And one bonus question-How is any carbon, rust, soot, or other particles a threat to the steel of the bore if is sitting on a nice layer of copper? Or is that layer of copper not evenly distributed so the steel of the bore is always at risk of corrosion if anything at all corrosive is left in the bore?

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

All that I would like to add, for the love of Africa, do not defoul your barrel before you get on the plane.
I have seen countless hunters arrive on our shooting range, shoot a dinner plate group, only for them to tell me that it was shooting 1 MOA before they left.
My first question is did the defoul the barrel using coppor solvent and 100% of them say yes. Easy fix, it just going to cost you 1/2 to 1 box of ammo sending rounds down range until the group closes up again.
If you feel that you are getting close to the number of shots where you usually defoul your barrel because you are seeing your groups get bigger, do the clean and get back onto the range to sort things out befire your leave.
I keep cheap ammo around just for this type of stuff.

 

[Russ16]

This thread has been helping with questions I’ve had for a long time. Can someone please expound on the below ideas or correct me if I’m wrong? This is not meant to be sarcastic or provocative. I’m really trying to decide what I should change in my cleaning approach. I’m no gunsmith. Walking through things:

1) I pull the trigger and send a bullet through the barrel. This barrel has some imperfections in terms of tooling marks, pits, voids, etc.

2) With the shot, some amount of copper fouling from the bullet is deposited on the surface of the bore. Some of this copper fouling is a good thing in terms of accuracy, and removing it should not be pursued unless accuracy in the rifle is starting to fall off. BUT some people don’t believe that or their individual rifle doesn’t hold to that, so they frequently clean that copper off back down to the bare bore metal.

3) With the shot, burning powder causes carbon deposit throughout the bore, and this is often worse at the throat and at the muzzle if using a suppressor or muzzle brake. This carbon is not a big deal, but should be cleaned out if accuracy starts to degrade or pressure starts to build. BUT some people believe that this carbon buildup is a problem no matter what (given that it introduces a variable) and should be at least partially removed after every practice session. Some people think it should be completely removed so any new shooting is through a carbon free barrel.

4) With the shot and with use, other residue besides the above copper and carbon will remain on the surface of the bore. Some shooters believe these other chemicals, rust, and residues are not a big deal and do not necessitate cleaning. Others use gun oil or another product to clean or neutralize them after every shooting session, out of fear that they will contribute to corrosion of the bore.
5) Some people believe the tools themselves used in cleaning can damage chambers, throats, bores, and or crowns. That potential damage is more of a risk to permanent accuracy than any of 1-4, so best not to clean or to do so under very controlled circumstances- using bore guides, only cleaning in certain directions, only using patches or plastic brushes, etc. Another camp uses abrasives in pursuit of a good clean. Another camp says there’s no way our cleaning tools can account for anywhere near the damage that the explosion of shooting a bullet down the barrel can cause, so don’t even worry about that aspect whether you clean frequently or not.

6) One camp backs up their position with pictures from a bore scope (I find these super interesting, by the way) illustrating the above principles. Another camp says stop worrying about what the bore looks like, just shoot the rifle and then clean it if accuracy falls off.

So someone who wants to diligently clean, remove carbon, and remove copper has ample reasons to do so. But someone who wants to superficially and quickly clean has some good evidence for taking this approach. But someone who never wants to clean has strong arguments…to not to.

But in general, the trend within the industry is less cleaning than has been the tradition in years past.

What am I missing? What am I not understanding? Or is there never going to be a consensus on all this and thus no reason to change my approach? And, most importantly, which of the above points have been so abundantly proven or disproven that I should not even consider them?

And one bonus question-How is any carbon, rust, soot, or other particles a threat to the steel of the bore if is sitting on a nice layer of copper? Or is that layer of copper not evenly distributed so the steel of the bore is always at risk of corrosion if anything at all corrosive is left in the bore?

I would only add that the cleaning routine many of us were taught by our fathers and grandfathers was rooted in a different time. Primers and powders were more corrosive and cleaning was more of a necessity. Also many of them learned the cleaning methods in the military of 50+ years ago which had different requirements and reasons than a 21st century hunting rifle.