What is it about European cartridges in North America?

[Red Leg]

But then there is the question of is the US cartridge similar to the European one or is it the European one similar to the US one?

There used to be a phobia here in the US about anything metric, hence the .284 caliber of cartridges instead of 7mm. Same with the .243's, 257's, and a slew of others.

Now it is the other way around. More of the new cartridges are accepting their metric designation instead of the SAE version.

Rifle and ammunition manufacturers at least love it. Build the same old ballistics into new packages for old and new buyers. Just think how many 6.5 Creedmoor owners think they actually own something "new"!

 

[OxfordTheCat]

Lower velocity, lower recoil, and easier to shoot with high sectional density bullets.

US cartridge development worshipped at the altar of velocity.
European cartridges went with heavier, high sectional density bullets.

I'm not a fan of sharp recoil and I definitely know which side I favour...

That and the availability of rifles: As of six or seven years ago I could (and did) buy beautiful Husqvarna sporters in 6.5x55, 9.3x57 and 9.3x62 for less than $300 CAD. Prices regrettably now closer to $500.

At that price, why on earth would I be wasting my time buying some synthetic stocked Browning X-Bolt or Winchester abomination, that don't have any iron sights, in 270 or 308 for triple or more of the price?

A better question would be:

What's with the fascination with new fangled North American cartridges?

Seems to me that 6.5x55, 7x57, 375 H&H (along with the other H&H magnums), and 9.3x62 were getting it done just fine prior to the onslaught of the half dozen or so "new" flavours of 6.5, various .27 calibres, and the smattering of .375s; along with the other myriad of special snowflake "______ Improved" and " %insert-manufacturer-name-here% Magnum" cartridges that have appeared.

 

[Nevada Mike]

It does seem that the .25 caliber cartridges are an American idea. I have a .25-'06 and a .257 Roberts - both excellent calibers, even if the .257 R is built on 7 x 57 brass. Oh, and I have one of those, too. And the USA certainly had a slew of BIG & SLOW cartridges when slaughtering the buffalo was popular?

So realistically, doesn't this have a lot to do WHAT is the available game and WHERE, and under WHAT CONDITIONS it is hunted?

 

[sestoppelman]

I have always loved the metrics. 6.5x55, 7.5x55, 7x57,7x64, 8x64, 9.3x57, 9.3x62, had them all. No better than the domestic equivalents just different.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I see a lot of the European cartridges mentioned are former military.
Coincidence?

 

[Professor Mawla]

Reading this thread , I cannot help but recall how things were so different during the 1970s ( when I first began hunting and had visited the United States for the first time ) . I apologize if my thoughts may come off as a bit scattered . If my memory serves me correctly , it was not actually until the mid 1980s that European calibres were beginning to develop a following in the American market . Up until that time , it was almost as if most American hunters deliberately shied away from non American calibres ( perhaps they felt that opting for American calibres exclusively , was the more patriotic thing to do ) .

Back in those days ( 1960s and 1960s ) , the 7 mm Remington Magnum actually had a larger following in the United States than the 7x57 mm Mauser . Weatherby calibres ( such as the .300 Weatherby Magnum , .378 Weatherby Magnum and .460 Weatherby Magnum ) were extremely trendy , as velocity was perceived as being the end all in ballistic efficiency ( five decades later , we now know this not to be true ) . European calibres were seen as little more than curios ( more popular among American arms collectors rather than American hunters ) .

I do not know how accurate my observations were at the time ( I was still in my early twenties during the 1970s ) , but it seemed to me that American calibre development during this era was largely influenced by the need to create cartridges which would fit in a standard .30-06 Springfield length action ( or even shorter actions , hence the rising popularity of the .308 Winchester during this era ) . This philosophy led to the creation of ” Short Magnums “ such as the .300 Winchester Magnum , .338 Winchester Magnum and .458 Winchester Magnum . By the time the 1980s came in , there was a greater availability of Magnum length actions ( such as the BRNO ZKK - 602 ) on the market . And thus , calibres such as the .416 Rigby and .505 Gibbs began to get popular on the American market . This is what fortunately revived several of the old British Nitro Express calibres ( which had previously faded into obscurity , after ICI Kynoch ceased manufacturing central fire ammunition in 1972 ) . Concurrently , the trend of short Magnums slowly began to somewhat abate .

One European ( or rather British ) calibre which has always been consistently popular in the United States ever since it was first offered as a chambering for the Winchester Model 70 , was the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum . Ever since 1937 , the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum has become an instant hit amongst American big game hunters ( and with very good reason ) . One European calibre which has never quite had a following in the United States , is the 10.75x68 mm Mauser ( also known as the .423 Mauser ) . It was an unpopular calibre back in those days ( being considered as a “ Poor Man’s .404 Jeffery “ ) and it is still extremely unpopular today . One North American calibre which has successfully managed to completely surpass it’s British counterpart in terms of popularity , is the .243 Winchester . It has completely pushed the very similar .240 Holland & Holland “ Apex “ and the .244 Holland & Holland Magnum into obsolescence .

Well , today things are different . European calibres are clearly holding their own against North American calibres ( in terms of popularity ) in the United States . Me personally ? I do not believe that good calibres know any national boundaries . I absolutely love the 7 mm Remington Magnum , .338 Winchester Magnum and .458 Winchester Magnum . But at the same time ; I really appreciate the 7x57 mm Mauser , 9.3x74 mm Rimmed and the .505 Gibbs .

 

[457121]

I respectfully disagree with the Professor. Euro cartridges don't even remotely come close to holding their own in the the USA as far as market share or volume of guns and ammo made. The 3 exceptions are the 9mm Luger and 7.62x39mm, and the .375 H&H. Every other Euro cartridge is a niche/boutique caliber in the USA. I would say 99% of American shooters have never heard of most of the Euro calibers mentioned in the posts in this thread. It just so happens that some of the 1% gather here and have similar interests and that the US market is large enough that the 1% is actually enough to make some sales. I really like 16 ga. shotguns and know a few others that do also but it is basically dead in the USA. Sometimes one of my 16ga. friends talks like it's making some kind of minor comeback because he met someone else who likes them too.

 

[Red Leg]

I respectfully disagree with the Professor. Euro cartridges don't even remotely come close to holding their own in the the USA as far as market share or volume of guns and ammo made. The 3 exceptions are the 9mm Luger and 7.62x39mm, and the .375 H&H. Every other Euro cartridge is a niche/boutique caliber in the USA. I would say 99% of American shooters have never heard of most of the Euro calibers mentioned in the posts in this thread. It just so happens that some of the 1% gather here and have similar interests and that the US market is large enough that the 1% is actually enough to make some sales. I really like 16 ga. shotguns and know a few others that do also but it is basically dead in the USA. Sometimes one of my 16ga. friends talks like it's making some kind of minor comeback because he met someone else who likes them too.

Exactly correct. Other than British African cartridges (and for the vast majority that means .375 H&H), the overwhelming majority of American hunters know absolutely nothing about European metric cartridges. That would include the venerable 7x57 which was likely more popular in the States in the '50's (when O'Conner would often praise it) than it is today.

 

[Hogpatrol]

Interesting no mention of the 6.5x47 Lapua, my favorite cartridge, US or European. It does everything, and more than the 6.5 CM and the Swede.

 

[arizonajake]

My hunting calibers and rifles are a mix of European and American designs:
.22 l. r. - Sako M78
.22 WMR - Steyr Zephir II
.222 Rem. - Sako L46
.223 Rem. - Sako L461
.243 Win. - Sako AII
6.5X47mm Lapua - Sako AII
.260 Rem. - Tikka 595
.30-06 Spfld. - Colt-Sauer
.375 H & H Magnum - Winchester M70
.404 Jeffery - Remington P1917

 

[Jörg Krüger]

A person can always ask themselves what came first.
6.5x55 or 260 Rem/ 6.5 Creedmore
7×57 or 308
8×57 or 30-06
308 Norma or 300 Winmag
375H&h or 375 Ruger
The list goes on.

Yes sure there might be a few tweaks like a shorter action(If you want to say a split second of bolt throw is a mayor advantage) , but otherwise it looks like re-inventing of a wheel to me.

Just my humble opinion

 

[bruce moulds]

Interesting no mention of the 6.5x47 Lapua, my favorite cartridge, US or European. It does everything, and more than the 6.5 CM and the Swede.

what can it do more than the other 2 other than shoot the tightest groups at 300m in really accurate target, bench, or fclass guns.?
bruce.

 

[mark-hunter]

the only thing I know about 6.5 lapua, from theoretic research that it is match cartridge designed to withstand large number of firing for longer barrel life. So, any eventual benefits, could be reasearched in that direction. Is it better then other two??? I dont know.

 

[Serbian Hunter]

Pls allow to one European hunter to remind you of one of best caliber ever - .45/70 Govt
I prefer more eclectic approach, trying to get best of both worlds. Some of European calibers I will chose any day over US calibers: 9.3x74R, 7x65R and 6.5x57R (rimmed cal for my single/double shots) and 9.3x62, 7x57, 6.5x57, 8x57, 8x68 in bolt action. On the other hand, I adore some of US calibers which are unbeatable - .45/70 comes 1st followed by .338WM, .375 Ruger. My whole handgun battery rely mainly on US calibers: .45acp, .357 Mag, 10mm auto, .44 Mag and .454 Casull plus .22lr and 9 Para from EU

 

[Witold Krzyżanowski]

Truth in lending, from a typical North American game animal's perspective, there is no meaningful difference between a group of cartridges such as the 7x57, 7x64, 6.5X57, 8X57, .270, 280, AND 30-06. However, the rifles in which many of these European creations are chambered can be very special indeed. The rimmed versions such as the 7x57R, 7x65R, and 6.5x57R are often housed in some of the most beautiful single shots and combination guns ever created - perfectly balanced and useful firearms that make pre-64 Model 70 feel like a pipe in a 2x4. This Bradshaw 7x65R is an example.

When one moves up into the realm of the 9.3, whether the 62mm in a bolt action or the 74R in a host of wonderful double rifles, they occupy a relatively low recoiling hard hitting niche not really filled by a corresponding caliber except perhaps the venerable Whelen. The 62 and 74R are something like the .338 Win Mag without all the drama. And of course you would have a hard time finding a 35 or .338 in a configuration like this pre-war German double.

The British, of course, pretty much defined the general purpose and dangerous game calibers for Africa, so I would assume your question didn't really refer to something like the .375.

My Rigby Highland Stalker in .275 (an Anglicized name for the 7x57) essentially does nothing that a Remington 700 won't do in .280. But that Rigby represents a level of tradition and craftsmanship somewhat missing in the usual Remington.

It is the special quality of so many of those firearms that is the attraction for me.

I agree with you Red Leg.

 

[Hogpatrol]

what can it do more than the other 2 other than shoot the tightest groups at 300m in really accurate target, bench, or fclass guns.?
bruce

Bruce, how many have you shot or are you just parroting what you read on the web?

 

[HWL]

A cartridge always needs a rifle to be brought to life.

The Continent and Britain have rifles to offer, the Americans do not have.

This alien rifles transfer the European cartridges.

This package of rifle and cartridge is, what it makes it irresistible

Those, who have handled this rifles, know what I am talking about.


HWL

 

[WAB]

A cartridge always needs a rifle to be brought to life.

The Continent and Britain have rifles to offer, the Americans do not have.

This alien rifles transfer the European cartridges.

This package of rifle and cartridge is, what it makes it irresistible

Those, who have handled this rifles, know what I am talking about.


HWL

I agree with you, but I will say that there are custom and semi custom American makers who will rival the best that Europe has produced.

 

[HWL]

I agree with you, but I will say that there are custom and semi custom American makers who will rival the best that Europe has produced.

Noting said about the quality of American firearms..... but the Americans do it in a different way, with a different result.

Same with the Brits.... they perfected the SxS rifle and shotgun in a way witch is unparalleled.

This does not mean, you cannot have a beautiful continental or american....


HWL

 

[Nevada Mike]

Spoke to my safari outfitter today. Told me to just bring my .404J and my 7mm RM. Sorry that I don't have gobs of calibers to choose from... oh well, the plight of the disadvantaged.