What do you think of Tiger and Jaguar being hunted in South Africa?

[Dragan N.]

I'm sorry, but rather you tell our forum what "Red Leg would say" how about letting me speak for myself. I would also note, I feel no compunction to force you or anyone else to agree with me. But I do have a clear understanding about what I believe is ethical hunting; and that belief absolutely colors with whom I would care to share a campfire. And if anyone has a problem with that they are absolutely welcome not to invite me to their's.

I have no problem with fences where the fenced ground is adequate for the animal to not perceive it is confined. A lot of game ranges meet that standard. Those that advertise a particular animal or score typically do not. The big cats never ever fall into that category. They are raised by humans who they learn to at least partially trust. They are drugged and then they are released for some shooter to use as target practice. No game farm owner can afford great cats which are truly wild. Whatever this "sport" is - it isn't hunting. And I am convinced it is a practice which tarnishes all of us who love Africa.

And by the way, I don't blame the outfitters who offer this. They are simply feeding demand.

All depends on how strict your ethics are. For example when you hunted Africa I imagine each of those times you had a guide along with a team of trackers with you right? Some people would consider that unethical and would question if it is truly your trophy i.e. could you have gotten that animal without a guide and a team of trackers? Now I personally don't agree with this, but you can find people/hunters, mostly those who have never been on guided hunts, that think this way.

With that being said I kind of agree with you and I personally don't find shooting a drugged up zoo animal and paying big $$ to do it that appealing.

But going back to the tiger hunting in South Africa, from my understanding it is not economically feasible for game farmers to keep truly wild big cats on their properties due to price. Most people who shoot these lions in South Africa do it because it is a lot cheaper than a truly wild lion hunt in say Tanzania. The pen raised South African lions are 5-6 times cheaper as far I know. Now with tigers, if South Africa is the only place you can shoot tigers there might be a market here for game farmers to keep truly wild tigers, ie establish a breeding population and let them feed on animals on there own, and sell them for very high prices to very wealthy hunters. Money unlike with the people who hunt pen raised lions is of no issue to these people. I am guessing there would be a demand for this if it was the only place in the world you could do it.

 

[Lbarr265]

Just found this thread looking and drooling over the trophy lion photos and someone posted the tiger pictured earlier and I followed the thread back here. Sorry for reviving a dead topic. Anyway I had one of those ‘great’ midnight ideas that may not be practical or great tomorrow morning but I’ll throw it out there and see what y’all think.

Captive animals will breed faster that wild animals, and have a higher survival rate for young to adulthood. This is well established for a majority of species with a few exceptions. So I have no problem breeding tigers for hunting. Now the first time you drug them (other than for required veterinary procedures) youve lost all credibility in my eyes. Why not establish a breeding program in Africa where for every one bred for high fenced hunting one must be released into the wild. Liters contain 2-3 cubs which are ready to leave their mother by 2-2.5 years old. The governments of the home countries (India, Russia, China etc.) won’t actually help these animals short of a rebellion and new government. They need a long term home, African countries have established procedures for having large wild cats within their borders and could be that long term home range (America could take some notes from them regarding mountain lion management in my opinion, but that’s off topic). Tanzania, Zambia, Mozambique, and several others have rainforest or tropical forest that would be perfect for tigers. The first few years there wouldn’t be a significant wild population to hunt and it would all be high fenced but that would eventually morph into both types when the wild population was established. That way those who could afford to tiger hunt (wish I was talking about myself) would get their hunt, free range, as well as contribute to the growth of a wild tiger population. The money could then be treated split between breeding cost/profit, support anti poaching efforts already in place and return some portion to the community such as with the campfire program(to help locals tolerate dangerous animals). Everyone wins but the antis and whatever Bureaucrat has to draw up tiger hunting laws and quotas for those countries, which would probably take at least 2 decades after the program started to establish a wild population and have sufficient census data to prove they are huntable.

Yes they will displace some lions and compete with them for game, but the two species used to share ranges so it shouldn’t be a big issue. Better have two cats doing ok than one cat doing good and one extinct. And actually thinking about it the breed one release one law would work for lions as well in areas they want wild lion populations. It will drive up the cost of canned lion hunting for sure but the money will be benefiting lions not lining the pockets of bureaucrats

Also if you’re against hunting animals outside of their home range remember white tails didn’t used to be native to Kansas, but I’m guessing few people would pass a good private land Kansas deer hunt.

 

[IvW]

Just found this thread looking and drooling over the trophy lion photos and someone posted the tiger pictured earlier and I followed the thread back here. Sorry for reviving a dead topic. Anyway I had one of those ‘great’ midnight ideas that may not be practical or great tomorrow morning but I’ll throw it out there and see what y’all think.

Captive animals will breed faster that wild animals, and have a higher survival rate for young to adulthood. This is well established for a majority of species with a few exceptions. So I have no problem breeding tigers for hunting. Now the first time you drug them (other than for required veterinary procedures) youve lost all credibility in my eyes. Why not establish a breeding program in Africa where for every one bred for high fenced hunting one must be released into the wild. Liters contain 2-3 cubs which are ready to leave their mother by 2-2.5 years old. The governments of the home countries (India, Russia, China etc.) won’t actually help these animals short of a rebellion and new government. They need a long term home, African countries have established procedures for having large wild cats within their borders and could be that long term home range (America could take some notes from them regarding mountain lion management in my opinion, but that’s off topic). Tanzania, Zambia, Mozambique, and several others have rainforest or tropical forest that would be perfect for tigers. The first few years there wouldn’t be a significant wild population to hunt and it would all be high fenced but that would eventually morph into both types when the wild population was established. That way those who could afford to tiger hunt (wish I was talking about myself) would get their hunt, free range, as well as contribute to the growth of a wild tiger population. The money could then be treated split between breeding cost/profit, support anti poaching efforts already in place and return some portion to the community such as with the campfire program(to help locals tolerate dangerous animals). Everyone wins but the antis and whatever Bureaucrat has to draw up tiger hunting laws and quotas for those countries, which would probably take at least 2 decades after the program started to establish a wild population and have sufficient census data to prove they are huntable.

Yes they will displace some lions and compete with them for game, but the two species used to share ranges so it shouldn’t be a big issue. Better have two cats doing ok than one cat doing good and one extinct. And actually thinking about it the breed one release one law would work for lions as well in areas they want wild lion populations. It will drive up the cost of canned lion hunting for sure but the money will be benefiting lions not lining the pockets of bureaucrats

Also if you’re against hunting animals outside of their home range remember white tails didn’t used to be native to Kansas, but I’m guessing few people would pass a good private land Kansas deer hunt.

Tiger and Jaguar are not native to Southern Africa and trying to release them into the wild here would be disastrous.

It is however a good idea for lion and I wish they would do it that way to increase the lion population in SA instead of the hand raised, release and hunt debacle(CBL) that is now again headlines all over the world and once again bringing CBL hunting and hunting in general in Africa under the spotlight. Not what we need.

 

[Lbarr265]

Why would it be disastrous? The point of my post was looking for someone to shoot down my idea and point out the flaws. What harm would it cause?

 

[Red Leg]

Why would it be disastrous? The point of my post was looking for someone to shoot down my idea and point out the flaws. What harm would it cause?

I don't know - like maybe they both would be invasive species on the continent of Africa? Why don't we release tigers in Yellowstone?

 

[IdaRam]

Why would it be disastrous? The point of my post was looking for someone to shoot down my idea and point out the flaws. What harm would it cause?

Hi Lbarr, here’s my thoughts on the matter.
The introduction of non-native species, whether intentional or accidental, into environments they haven't traditionally occupied commonly ends in disaster. We have a number of examples to look to here in the U.S. Carp for example. Carp are a non-native species that have changed many lakes and rivers that native species once occupied to the point those native species can no longer exist there. Or only exist in a fraction of the number they once did.
Also, we have a real problem with zebra and quagga mussels in many waters here in the U.S. They have come in on boats and ships and are now being dispersed by recreational water craft and are creating real havoc in an increasing nimber of waters.
One of the issues I can see immediately with Tiger and Jaguar reintroduction into non-native habitats in Africa is the already dwindling lion habi

 

[IdaRam]

tat.
The number one challenge lion face is habitat loss. Competition from Tiger and Jaguar would place and additonal challenge to that issue I believe.
What about the native peoples? I think they would probably not be very supportive of another large predator or two killing their livestock and family members.
And what about the unforseeable consequences that are ever present when introducing non-native species? We just can’t ever know all of the possible consequences such as disease for one example. Non-native species are frequently not as disease resistant as native species.
While I would love nothing more than to see Tiger populations get some much needed habitat, I just don’t see it being in Africa.
Also, Jaguar have plenty of habitat and decent populations in parts of South America. If hunting was legalized for Jaguar and they had value, I think we would see much change circumstance. I don’t think Jaguar need the same help as Tiger do.
Just my two bits and thank you for asking the question

 

[sierraone]

Did any of you notice that many of the posts on this thread could be virtually a cut and paste to the PHASA Captive Lion thread? I believe there is another on the forum also, but can't locate it.

 

[Lbarr265]

I don't know - like maybe they both would be invasive species on the continent of Africa? Why don't we release tigers in Yellowstone?

I am not sure what you are referring to both, I am only talking about tigers, unless you mean both Siberian and Bengal tigers. Tigers are more of a niche between leopard and lion, they don't hunt in prides on the ground but are much larger and capable of surviving off larger game that leopard doesn't normally target.

The difference between Africa and Yellowstone is there is already a significant wild large cat population in Africa, there isn't one in Yellowstone. The apex predators in Yellowstone, bears, are significantly different in how they fill that apex role than tigers are from lions, the apex in Africa, particularly in the fact that all large predators in Yellowstone are omnivores, whereas cats are not. There also isn't a significantly established hunting industry there for large cats. I'm told the only reason African individuals tolerate lions/elephants/ other dangerous game, is the hunting industry which is so crucial to them. That hasn't been established in North America, so I don't see farmers in Montana being tolerate of tigers when they aren't tolerant of grizzlies or wolves now, but the African people are tolerate to some extent of lions. I would be willing to hear any other locations you may have to consider for a long term location for tigers until Asia gets their act together.

Hi Lbarr, here’s my thoughts on the matter.
The introduction of non-native species, whether intentional or accidental, into environments they haven't traditionally occupied commonly ends in disaster. We have a number of examples to look to here in the U.S. Carp for example. Carp are a non-native species that have changed many lakes and rivers that native species once occupied to the point those native species can no longer exist there. Or only exist in a fraction of the number they once did.
Also, we have a real problem with zebra and quagga mussels in many waters here in the U.S. They have come in on boats and ships and are now being dispersed by recreational water craft and are creating real havoc in an increasing number of waters
Also, we have a real problem with zebra and quagga mussels in many waters here in the U.S. They have come in on boats and ships and are now being dispersed by recreational water craft and are creating real havoc in an increasing nimber of waters.
One of the issues I can see immediately with Tiger and Jaguar reintroduction into non-native habitats in Africa is the already dwindling lion habitat.
The number one challenge lion face is habitat loss. Competition from Tiger and Jaguar would place and additional challenge to that issue I believe.
What about the native peoples? I think they would probably not be very supportive of another large predator or two killing their livestock and family members.
And what about the unforseeable consequences that are ever present when introducing non-native species? We just can’t ever know all of the possible consequences such as disease for one example. Non-native species are frequently not as disease resistant as native species.
While I would love nothing more than to see Tiger populations get some much needed habitat, I just don’t see it being in Africa.
Also, Jaguar have plenty of habitat and decent populations in parts of South America. If hunting was legalized for Jaguar and they had value, I think we would see much change circumstance. I don’t think Jaguar need the same help as Tiger do.
Just my two bits and thank you for asking the question .

I agree jaguar doesn't need the same amount of help the tiger does. I didn't mention jaguar in my original post for that reason.

You have listed two examples of accidental invasive species which considerable out bred their native counterparts with no real predator threat to keep them in check. You could also look to the ringneck pheasant which is only native to Asia, but has assimilated nicely in america as well as other locations, as they are not as prolific as carp, and are controlled well by the weather and predators, and are now part of a healthy ecosystem. I think tigers will not have any predators other than hunters to keep them in check in Africa, but they would certainly be subject to the availability of food just as lions are and subject to drought. They aren't nearly as prolific as a fish or a muscle having hundreds of offspring in their life. Bees aren't native to america, yet they are now considered vital to the ecosystem. A more apt analogy for this instance may be house cats in Australia that eat the smaller marsupials. But again nothing hunts the house cats, in fact we protect them. This wouldn't be true of tigers.

As far as disease I did some digging and there are actually quite a few tigers in high fenced areas, some hunted some not, but they seem to be doing well and some are even breeding in high fenced areas in Africa without issues expect from poachers. Looking at it I am not the first person to propose this, others have tried and been shut down by the government, so that is likely to stay the case.

The point I agree with you on is the disappearance of habitat by human encroachment. But it is slower in Africa than in the tigers native ranges. Unfortunately unless we issue population control habitat will continue to disappear without protection, which takes money. And hunters will pay to hunt. I'm sure the locals would tolerate tigers for $100,000 US per head, if that is what it takes, and you know someone out there would pay it to hunt wild tigers.

I appreciate your two bits, and thanks for being more patient with me than I probably would be in your shoes.

Did any of you notice that many of the posts on this thread could be virtually a cut and paste to the PHASA Captive Lion thread? I believe there is another on the forum also, but can't locate it.

I haven't seen that forum but am interested in looking for it if you can find it. I'm sure it is full of negativity in places but I would still be interested in reading it.

 

[AfricaHunting.com]

I haven't seen that forum but am interested in looking for it if you can find it. I'm sure it is full of negativity in places but I would still be interested in reading it.

@sierraone was referring to the following thread: PHASA captive bred Lion hunting.

 

[Lbarr265]

@sierraone was referring to the following thread: PHASA captive bred Lion hunting.

Thank you. Looks like I have more reading to do

 

[Eric Anderson]

Attached is a website screen shot which was taken today of the hunting gallery page of a company called Gotsoma Safaris based in South Africa, the link to their website homepage is www.gotsoma.co.za and the direct link to their gallery where the screen shot was taken from is Gotsoma Safaris Gallery. The screen shot shows a photograph of a bow hunter with a Tiger and a rifle hunter with a Jaguar

What do you think of Tiger and Jaguar being hunted in South Africa?

View attachment 21314

I am for anything and everything that could possibly save tigers from extinction. Period.

 

[Philip Glass]

Private ownership and management of wildlife is why we are having these discussions in the first place. Some hunting is better some is harder so to each his own. Those two animals can’t be hunted anywhere but RSA so at least there is an option.
For me I first want to hunt the wild places with native game but someday who knows......
Phili

 

[Tom Leoni]

Not enough info to go on.

1 - Are the species being introduced in SA and have they reached a healthy population level?

2 - If so, do they have minimum or negligible negative impact on the indigenous fauna?

3 - Are they being hunted ethically and do they have a large enough habitat in which to roam free?

If the answer to these questions is "yes," then great. Heck, I'd love to get me a tiger some day, and I don't think I'd be able to get one in its natural habitat (not within my lifetime). If not I'd pass, although I'd enthusiastically defend the right of any hunter to ethically pursue such a hunt if it was his "bag."

 

[AdrianGS]

HOW DID THESE HUNTS CONTRIBUTE TO TIGERS AND JAGUARS?

It has been some time since the posting of these photos and discussion all over the world on anti hunting sights. I received lots of negative publicity due to these hunts and even received death threats. Well I will take it all over again and many hunters are extremely positive and supportive. I am happy to announce that due to these hunts the population of Tigers and Jaguars in South Africa are healthy and growing. Now every one might ask is Gotsoma Safaris still hunting tigers and Jaguars? The answer is yes. The only way to sustain tigers and jaguars are from hunting income. Breeding these animals are not cheap. I also read comments that these animals are hunted in small confined areas, no they are not.

Well I stumbled across this again and thought I wanted to give some feedback.

Stay safe and stay healthy Covid-19 is a problem not Tiger Hunting in South Africa and not Jaguar Hunting in South Africa.

 

[Cam Moon]

There are so many variables, and so many different standards as far as ethics go that we as hunters will never always agree 100%.
From longbow vs compound, is crossbow hunting still archery? Black powder, single shot, repeater, semi-auto. Iron sights vs scope, use of a rangefinder, (how about scope with built in rangefinder?) Hunting at waterholes, natural vs man-made waterholes, tree stands, blinds, use of dogs, professional trackers or guides, hunting over bait, night hunting, using tree cameras, use of decoys, long shots, spotting scopes, vehicle use, OHV use, shooting females, shooting prime trophy animals vs ones past their prime, use of calls, electronic vs manual calls, scent blockers, nutrient supplements, captive bred, free range, farmed animals, fenced enclosures, how large is large enough, what happens to the meat? What happens to the rest? What if the meat is donated rather than consumed by the hunter? Group hunting, Sunday hunting, age requirements, radio/phone communication, endangered species hunting, hunting only native animals (and then is that by province/state? By country? By continent? By natural terrain?) Hunting for meat vs a trophy, predator hunting, darting, shooting birds not in flight, the list goes on. And on. And on! There will ALWAYS be someone out there who is more ethical than you are. No matter what. ALWAYS. I read some comments on some threads and wonder when peckers and rulers are going to come out! Why not agree to disagree?
For me, I do want a hunt. I don't want to shoot fish in a barrel. But at the same time, if I'm paying for a trophy hunt, I don't want to come back empty handed either. I'm not going onto the property and finding what's naturally present to construct my own bow or spear. But I'm also not about to walk up to the pen, stick my gun through the fence and shoot something and think I "hunted" it.
I used to be a meat hunter and I judged trophy hunters. I thought I was superior, "better" than them. Do you know why I've changed my mind? Because I've educated myself!
I think most of the greenies out there have their hearts in the right place. I think many of them think they are helping when they are causing more harm than good. Why? They did not educate themselves. They made judgements based on their preconceived ideas or morals without seeking all the information required to make a sound decision.
I don't want us, as hunters to make the same mistakes. Do I want to shoot a bottle fed pet in it's pen? Hell no! Would I consider hunting a CBL? Possibly. What if it was born in captivity, but it was born in an area that's 500 acres in size? If it was raised by it's mother, was never bottle fed, or pet, or used as a photo op for tourists? If it was released at least a month earlier into 35,000+ acres where other lions reside, and hunt and fend for themselves? If I hunted on foot, not from a vehicle? Would I consider a hunt like that? Yes. Yes I would. Is this a wild lion hunt? No.... Not in my mind anyway. I couldn't afford what I would consider to be a truly wild lion hunt. But in my mind it's not a canned hunt either. I may still choose to not do a hunt as I described, for a number of reasons. But if I weighed the variables and felt it was within my ethics or standards, at least I know it's available.
Because I took the time to educate myself.

 

[WebleyGreene455]

I don't know - like maybe they both would be invasive species on the continent of Africa? Why don't we release tigers in Yellowstone?

Kinda reminds me of how there's a population of hippos thriving in Colombia because they escaped Pablo Escobar's private zoo after his downfall and began breeding. Which apparently has had some small beneficial impact but at the same time you have hippos present where they should not be, rapidly increasing in population. Colombia's arguing over culling them, removing them entirely, or establishing some kind of breeding preserve and then exporting them to zoos and to Africa where they belong.

Edit: Oops, I didn't realize this was several years old. Apologies.

 

[Jeff75]

This hunting is not appealing to me either but I also do not judge those who do.

Here is some food for thought, I keep reading posts that hunting them out of their natural habitat is a huge turnoff. Do those of you who feel that way also feel the same when hunting Nyala in the EC or Black Wildebeest in Limpopo or Lechwe in KZN or any of the vast array of plains game that we all hunt in SA, so much of this game is far from its natural habitat? It not be as far from home as Tiger or Jaguar but it still doesn't really belong.

Heck, I had no qualms about hunting fallow deer in the western cape, and it doesn't get more non-native than that. Personally, the non-native thing doesn't bother me, but I'd take a pass on hunting a captive raised animal released into a not very big fenced enclosure a day or two before the shoot. But if it's legal, too each their own.

 

[Cam Moon]

I believe the minimum legal requirement in this case is 30 days. As far as the size of enclosure, opinions vary on what (if any) is acceptable. Thoughts?

 

[Dee S]

My first thought when I read the title alone was "WHY?"