Thinking About Buying A Vintage Shotgun? Read This First

rookhawk

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Thinking About Buying a Vintage Shotgun? Read This First.


I get this question via PM, email, text, and phone about five times a month. So, I’m posting this primer to reduce redundant conversations—and more importantly, to help people avoid wasting money or losing fingers.


If you're considering buying a vintage shotgun, understand this: 99% of the general public lacks the expertise needed to determine whether a gun is safe, valuable, or functional.


Here’s why that matters.

Proof Marks and Safety: Why Europe Is Different​


Most fine shotguns were made in Britain or continental Europe, where they were hand-built and rigorously tested. Once final assembly was complete, these guns were sent to a government Proof House to be test-fired with a 1.5x high-pressure load—twice per barrel. If the gun survived, it was “proven” safe. The proof technician then stamped the barrels with markings indicating original bore diameter, choke, and chamber length—critical safety information not visible to the eye.


That proof mark is half of your warranty that the gun was originally safe.


What about American-made shotguns? While many were built to safe standards, there is no equivalent to a proof house in the U.S.—and no evidence that the gun remains safe after 50 to 100 years.

The Other Half of the Warranty​


In Europe, if any part of a gun’s barrels is modified, it must legally go to a licensed gunsmith and then back to the proof house for re-proofing. This ensures the gun’s integrity is re-certified. Skipping this process is a felony.


In North America? No such system exists. There's no proof house, and no product liability on used firearm sales. That means many “fine” shotguns on the U.S. market have been modified may look great—but can be functionally dangerous.

Common (and Dangerous) Modifications​


These include:


  1. Lengthening chambers to accept higher-pressure loads than the original chamber design permits.
  2. Polishing out pitting from the bore or exterior, which may thin the barrel walls to dangerous levels.
  3. Restoration that invalidates proof—making the gun both unsafe and less valuable, even if it looks pristine.

These issues are almost never disclosed. Why? Because in North America, there are no consequences for selling unsafe vintage shotguns.


Let me be blunt: If you're buying a vintage shotgun in the U.S. without doing your homework, you're gambling with your wallet—and your safety.

The Most Dangerous Myth​


No one—no matter how experienced—can look at a shotgun and tell if it’s safe. Not me, not you, not anyone.


Experts can spot signs that a gun has been reworked or repaired, but they cannot judge wall thickness or chamber alterations by eye alone.

So How Do You Buy a Vintage Shotgun Safely?​


You have three options:

Option 1: Do It Yourself (the Right Way)
Get the right tools and do the work:
  • Wall Thickness Gauge
  • Bore Gauge
  • Chamber Gauge
  • Proof mark reference books
  • Factory ledgers, if available
This allows you to determine:
  • What the gun was originally
  • Whether it’s still in that original condition
Option 2: Pay a Premium to Avoid Risk
Buy only from reputable dealers or auction houses that:
  • Cite minimum wall thickness
  • List chamber length, choke, and relevant details
  • Allow inspection or return windows
They’re rare—and expensive—but they’re selling to informed clients, not gambling with your safety.

Option 3: Hire an expert to represent you
Retain an independent third party that will negotiate price, evaluate condition, negotiate return policy, and take initial delivery and inspection duties. Competent agents will:
  • Cite minimum wall thickness
  • List chamber length, choke, and relevant details
  • Verify drop at heel, comb, cast, and pitch of the stock along with the all-important length-of-pull
  • Identify latent defects
  • Assess originality
  • Prescribe minor repairs or servicing
  • Refer you to the top expert for a given specialty repair or adjustment
Typically an independent expert is going to save you multiples of whatever their fee may be. This can be through better negotiation with the seller, or identification of a known gun that meets your requirements for less than your budget. The independent expert is also more likely to be successful in obtaining you a full refund because of their timely facts gained during the three day inspection period.

And Always:
Negotiate a 3-day, non-firing inspection period.
Either inspect it yourself or send it directly to a qualified gunsmith. Do this before your return window closes.

But Is It Valuable?​


Even if the gun is safe, that doesn’t mean it’s worth the price. A trained eye will assess:
  • Whether the stock is original
  • If it’s been reworked or refinished
  • Whether the ejectors function
  • If dimensions (drop, pitch, cast, LOP) are correct
If it’s an expensive gun, you need more than safety checks—you need expert appraisal.

Bottom Line: Caveat Emptor



If the seller can’t provide chamber length, bore size, wall thickness, choke, and proof marks: Do not buy the gun.


Don’t assume big retailers like Cabela’s sell only safe guns. They don’t. They lack the expertise and tools to evaluate them properly. Many unscrupulous dealers sell dangerous guns to Cabela’s or dump them at auction houses that do not require disclosure of crucial information.

A Closing Anecdote​


At a collector’s show, I once carried 40 pounds of books and measuring tools to evaluate shotguns. Fellow dealers laughed and asked why I was bothering. I asked how they bought guns all weekend without tools.


Their answer?
"We never buy from the general public at anywhere near wholesale. We can afford to lose money on a few."


Some dealers checked purchased guns later—others sold them “as-is” because, well, there’s a sucker born every minute.


More Caveat Emptor.

A Postscript​


I’ve inspected many shotguns after purchase and had to tell the new owner:

"You now own a worthless and unsafe firearm."

Some have gone on to resell those guns, undisclosed, rather than destroy or repair them.

Selling a known-dangerous gun, in my opinion, borders on manslaughter. But greed often trumps integrity.

Be suspicious. Be safe.
– Jerome @AfricaHunting.com (please sticky this in the classifieds section)
IMG_2930.JPG
 
As one of said people who has asked you this question - I really appreciate the thoroughness of information shared here.

Unconscious incompetence is my least favorite stage of learning. I dislike it when it comes at the expense of my wallet, but it’s worse when it’s impacts health.
 
Great advise. It is common to find "sleeved" guns. These are guns that had barrels that would no longer pass proof likely due to heavy pitting, thin walls, etc. Some sleeving jobs are excellent and some not so much. It hurts the value of the gun but the buyer has a pretty good chance of having safe barrels and it gives the opportunity to have a higher end gun at a much reduced cost. Just keep in mind that if you ever go to sell it, the gun will have less demand and a lower price. Either way, it amazes me that I can purchase a hand made English sxs for less than it would cost me to just have the engraving done, let alone everything else. And the market for side by sides does not seem to be improving much, which is a good deal for buyers.
 
Great advise. It is common to find "sleeved" guns. These are guns that had barrels that would no longer pass proof likely due to heavy pitting, thin walls, etc. Some sleeving jobs are excellent and some not so much. It hurts the value of the gun but the buyer has a pretty good chance of having safe barrels and it gives the opportunity to have a higher end gun at a much reduced cost. Just keep in mind that if you ever go to sell it, the gun will have less demand and a lower price. Either way, it amazes me that I can purchase a hand made English sxs for less than it would cost me to just have the engraving done, let alone everything else. And the market for side by sides does not seem to be improving much, which is a good deal for buyers.

There are world-class sleeved guns done in the UK where the metallurgy was so perfectly matched that the lines are invisible and even the bluing across the two steels is indistinguishable. Those guns are only worth something if they are so obscenely rare that the unsleeved alternative is not available at virtually any price. (e.g. A Dickson or MacNaughton sub-gauge)

Unfortunately, there was another kind of "Best" sleeving that was popular 15 years ago. It was called Teague Lining and it involved reaming out the entire barrel from muzzle to chamber, then using an aerospace glue for adhesion, a full length tube was pressed into the barrel. MANY best grade damascus guns had this 8000 pound service done to them and they looked perfect. Ten years ago these guns were selling for almost the same price as un-sleeved guns. Unfortunately, they are now totally worthless. The glue failed in time and it caused riveling (rippling?) of the entire barrel.

I recommend avoiding sleeved guns unless you're an advanced collector looking for a $20k British best gun to complete a collection that would otherwise cost $80k. Most sleeved guns are unsaleable and undesirable.
 
Awesome resource Rookhawk. Thanks for taking the time to compile, even if motivation was selfish
 
@rookhawk - would be interested to know the frequency of injuries related to UNsafe Vintage firearms vs Modern ones? Obviously when either occurs it makes “headlines” and is written/talked about a lot but it appears both are a very rare occurrence. Now, “rare” is a relative term and without context - meaningless …as are “Warnings” without some data to put the warnings in perspective. Maybe incidents/accidents using Vintage firearms would be higher if those using those firearms were less experienced. A very random observation I’ve made is that most people interested in Vintage firearms are “Vintage” themselves and have handled many types of firearms, are careful, and appreciate the limitations an older firearm may have. They don’t load Great Grandpas .45-70 with Buffalo Bore ammo or a Damascus Shotgun with a Hevi Shot Turkey load. Also, even modern Firearms are sometimes being “Recalled” for Safety issues so I assume “Nothing is completely Safe”. You bring up very good points regarding when buying an older used shotgun and needing to be aware of any “modifications/restorations” that may have been made. Most good condition Vintage shotguns (LC Smith, Fox, Winchester model 21) function safely with modern target loads - providing chamber length and forcing cones lengths are correct, barrels and action are in not loose etc.. As you point out, a passing glance or quick once over of these guns may not be enough to reveal problems. Either way, I would Not use any “Hot loads” in older shotguns regardless of how well the gun checks out.
From a practical standpoint, there’s only so much “inspection” that can be done at a Gun show or OnLine purchase and even with a “3 Day” inspection period a buyer might not have time to get the complete Gunsmith inspection completed that you recommend. What would you recommend as a reasonably quick basic inspection to eliminate the most crucial and obvious warning signs?
 
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I have learned that if shopping uneducated. you’re better off buying uncut diamonds in the NY Diamond district than a used fine shotgun.
 
From a practical standpoint, there’s only so much “inspection” that can be done at a Gun show or OnLine purchase and even with a “3 Day” inspection period a buyer might not have time to get the complete Gunsmith inspection completed that you recommend. What would you recommend as a reasonably quick basic inspection to eliminate the most crucial and obvious warning signs?

I do not recommend any shortcuts to an inspection. I would not buy a vintage shotgun at a gun show unless I have all my gauges handy, the most important one being my 30lb wall thickness gauge. If the gunshow dealer is reputable, he may have published choke, minimum wall thickness, cast, LOP, and other relevant points. EVEN THEN, I state that I will inspect the shotgun and he agrees to take it back within 3 days if my independent verification doesn't jive with his claims. (I've never had to use this term, thankfully)

As to your other question that was basically how frequent are injuries, I don't have the data. I will tell you that the "standard" I and other collectors expect is .030" minimum wall thickness for 2.75" chambered guns, and .024" minimum wall thickness for 2.5" chambers, and at all times .065" or greater walls 9" from the breech. Nonetheless, there are guns with as thin as .017" walls that have passed re-proof in the UK but they are an anathema. While they might be "proven safe" they dent incredibly easily and the slightest of pitting could lead to a catastrophic failure in the years to come. There is no tool that can measure the minimum wall thickness between the ribs and the barrels, if caustic solder/braize was used it can fester between the ribs and result in invisible pitting reducing the wall thicknesses in places you cannot see. Hence, that's why you buy guns with a margin of error which is why I cite .024" and .030" as good rules of thumb.
 
Awesome resource Rookhawk. Thanks for taking the time to compile, even if motivation was selfish

Anything I can do to stop repeating myself, or delivering un-useful "too-late, so sorry, you own it" advice is a personal win.
 
You sir, you are a wealth of knowledge, thank you for sharing it. BTW, I like the Giraffe leg cigar ash tray. (y) :D
 
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Great advice Rookkawk. Thank You for taking the time to share
 
I do not recommend any shortcuts to an inspection. I would not buy a vintage shotgun at a gun show unless I have all my gauges handy, the most important one being my 30lb wall thickness gauge. If the gunshow dealer is reputable, he may have published choke, minimum wall thickness, cast, LOP, and other relevant points. EVEN THEN, I state that I will inspect the shotgun and he agrees to take it back within 3 days if my independent verification doesn't jive with his claims. (I've never had to use this term, thankfully)

As to your other question that was basically how frequent are injuries, I don't have the data. I will tell you that the "standard" I and other collectors expect is .030" minimum wall thickness for 2.75" chambered guns, and .024" minimum wall thickness for 2.5" chambers, and at all times .065" or greater walls 9" from the breech. Nonetheless, there are guns with as thin as .017" walls that have passed re-proof in the UK but they are an anathema. While they might be "proven safe" they dent incredibly easily and the slightest of pitting could lead to a catastrophic failure in the years to come. There is no tool that can measure the minimum wall thickness between the ribs and the barrels, if caustic solder/braize was used it can fester between the ribs and result in invisible pitting reducing the wall thicknesses in places you cannot see. Hence, that's why you buy guns with a margin of error which is why I cite .024" and .030" as good rules of thumb.
Thanks a lot for writing all of this up @rookhawk . You sharing this hard earned info freely is truly kind of you.
 
I have bought and imported a number of 'vintage' shotguns directly from the UK. I have a trusted UK dealer that inspects the gun prior to my commitment to buy. Most UK dealers will send the gun that you are interested in buying to a UK person/firm to inspect for you and the cost is nil to very little.

I have done the importation on my own in the past but now use a broker. When the gun arrives here I send to my 'smith, who is highly qualified and knows me well. He vets the gun again and makes recommendations and does other work that may to be done.

It is interesting to note that vintage doubles in the UK are decreasing in price - all but the very best collectable guns. The UK is now shooting (almost completely) non-toxic shot and the generation that originally owned and appreciated these old treasures have passed on and left their arms to their heirs... most of whom shoot O/U guns or don't shoot at all. I own a couple guns that are now worth LESS than I paid for them 10 or 15 years ago. I don't really care because I shoot and appreciate them.

I also think that high quality boxlock guns are a tremendous bargain right now. Especially ones made by lesser known makers. But you must, as Rookhawk points out, take the trouble to educate your self prior to buying. I have a nice 20b Robertson (spec'd, finished and sold by Boss of London) that I bought for less than $2500. Another is a lightweight 16b from Jos. Harkom of Scotland that cost me $2200... Great bird guns for an AZ quail hunter.
 
Pictures please. :D
 
Great Advice!!!!!

I unfortunately learned the hard way on the first (Vintage English Double sold by Cabel's) I had a VERY good gunsmith look at it and shake his head and then sit me down and give me shotgun 101-505 level class that covered all the things your mentioned etc. He is now retired and a good friend that lets me use his measuring tools and books.

@rookhawk advice is SPOT ON!!!!
 
All excellent points. I’ll add a small note about vintage English shotguns. Matching shot weight alone can’t be an indication of whether a particular cartridge is safe for a particular shotgun.

For example, the two photographs below are of a 1954 made 12 gauge (2.75”) fully choked BSA (Birmingham Small Arms) Model XII which was proofed for 1 1/4 Oz of shot (a 36 gram load).
IMG_3544.jpeg

First picture was taken in October 1st, 2024 (at the beginning of last waterfowl hunting season)
IMG_4105.jpeg

Second picture is taken from 1st May, 2025 (end of last waterfowl hunting season).

The shotgun was as tight as a bank vault in October. But by May (13 hunting trips and roughly 260 rounds later), you can clearly see that the shotgun has begun to get slightly “Off-Face” by developing a little bit of a gap between the breech & the receiver. It was also begun to get slightly loose, but shoots otherwise very strong & accurately.

The current owner (a reasonable and educated young gent) followed the proof marks and only runs 1 1/4 Oz loads through it. But he made the mistake of using high velocity American Winchester Super-X 1 1/4 Oz loads (1330 FPS velocity) through it (mostly #6). A more less hotter cartridge loaded more in line with 1950s era British service pressures is more desirable.

The owner now uses Sellier & Bellot Fortuna 1 1/4 Oz loads in the shotgun (after having a gunsmith retighten the old gun and put it back “On-Face”). Velocities are a little slower (1263 FPS) but game is still dropping very cleanly.
 
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I am already talked out of the idea.
Besides, there is another storm on the horizon.
Mandatory non lead shot (steel), additional thing that can ruin a vintage shotgun, if it is choked.
 
Thanks for sharing all your hard earned wisdom @rookhawk !
 
I have bought and imported a number of 'vintage' shotguns directly from the UK. I have a trusted UK dealer that inspects the gun prior to my commitment to buy. Most UK dealers will send the gun that you are interested in buying to a UK person/firm to inspect for you and the cost is nil to very little.

I have done the importation on my own in the past but now use a broker. When the gun arrives here I send to my 'smith, who is highly qualified and knows me well. He vets the gun again and makes recommendations and does other work that may to be done.

It is interesting to note that vintage doubles in the UK are decreasing in price - all but the very best collectable guns. The UK is now shooting (almost completely) non-toxic shot and the generation that originally owned and appreciated these old treasures have passed on and left their arms to their heirs... most of whom shoot O/U guns or don't shoot at all. I own a couple guns that are now worth LESS than I paid for them 10 or 15 years ago. I don't really care because I shoot and appreciate them.

I also think that high quality boxlock guns are a tremendous bargain right now. Especially ones made by lesser known makers. But you must, as Rookhawk points out, take the trouble to educate your self prior to buying. I have a nice 20b Robertson (spec'd, finished and sold by Boss of London) that I bought for less than $2500. Another is a lightweight 16b from Jos. Harkom of Scotland that cost me $2200... Great bird guns for an AZ quail hunter.
@Nevada Mike good on you for importing those guns. But do please note that your comment about the uk almost completely using non toxic shot is not correct. There has been no fixed date to ban or phase out lead shot. There are places where you can’t use it. ie waterfowl lakes and seashore. But pheasant, partridge and clay grounds is still all lead shot.
Your right about there being some fine deals though.
 

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