The Cartridge Which Is Loved By Some, Loathed By Many, But Known By All

Jaws

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Jaws
What a most insightful reply . For a gentleman such as yourself , l should think a 9.3 millimeter mauser calibre bolt operation rifle for general use and a .458 Winchester magnum calibre bolt operation rifle for Gaur would be the perfect Shikar battery which l would recommend to you , were l guiding you in India during my career as a professional Shikari from 1962 to 1970 .

Thank you Mr Rahman,

Unfortunately I think it wont ever be the case, but it is nice to dream of an era when those ideas were possibilities.
The .458WM I mentioned belongs to my father & has become his favorite, my exposure to it has certainly started a keen fondness of it, but I have my own rifles which I have come to appreciate and fancy to have on an adventure.
The 9.3 x 62 is an all round rifle I cannot fault but it does have its limitations. Mine is used for small to medium & certain large game (Warthog, Impala,Gnu Kudu, Eland )
Guar I know very little about, but my preference would be my scoped .404J. in recent times I have come to adore this caliber for just about all game as a result of its moderate velocities, but can do everything the 9.3 does & more with perhaps exception to be able to take longer shots, but my comfort levels are to 300m & less for plains type game & usually for the pot, to which I have better suited rifles to choose from.

For the thickets where dangerous game is to be encountered at close ranges of 40M & less, I would gladly carry my 470Ne or 450/400Ne where a scope is not ideal.

This probably explains why no diversified hunter can be satisfied with only one rifle and not a single caliber can truly be the ultimate best for all purposes & situations.
 

CoElkHunter

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Nope, what I NEED is have my surgeon remove his last stitches tomorrow so I can hunt more!
I deserve (not need) an ATTABOY! for being able to mow, harrow, and seed Rye in our horse pastures with those stitches still in. Just finished seeding today and a cold front with rain is due tomorrow.
And I NEED to have another big BBQ for my hunting friends (and maybe a couple relatives) to eat some of the game in our freezers so I have an excuse to shoot more.
I NEED to use a few more of my rifles to kill feral hogs so all of them can say they have done that.
I NEED to take my .405 and .458 doubles to Africa, Australia, etc just for the fun of it.
I NEED to kill some black bears with those doubles too. Two such hunts have fallen through , but another is now booked. Wife says she wants a bear rug, so,,,.

I NEED to HUNT more!!!

CEH, you got me there, it is all photo shopped by my wife! She also did this nice Simson Co Trade Label for the Simson DR gun case:
crs,
You certainly seem to have your needs in order! Wish I could organize mine like that! Ha! Ha!
Nice hunting photo by the way with your large game animal and the LEVER ACTION rifle you took it with!
CEH
 
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crs

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Jaws said "it functions flawlessly, is accurate as can be & it kills what it is aimed at."

Thank you Jaws! The simple truth shorn of all the trivial BS that often accompanies such discussion.

That is how I feel about all my rifles regardless of caliber. IMHO, Killing what it is aimed at is the purpose of a rifle. If they do not live up, they are passed on.

In fact, I may add that to my footnote.
 

Tokoloshe Safaris

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Mister Rahman, I grew up reading Jim Corbetts fine books, I still re-read them about once a year. I have two questions for you. 1. Did you ever meet him? 2. Do you know of any excellent books written not by him but about him?
 

IvW

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But IvW ,
Aren't semi autos illegal in Africa ? :(

What? No, I own and use a nine shot semi auto FN Browning whale back shotgun...licenced....

Not sure where you get your info?
 

Kawshik Rahman

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Mister Rahman, I grew up reading Jim Corbetts fine books, I still re-read them about once a year. I have two questions for you. 1. Did you ever meet him? 2. Do you know of any excellent books written not by him but about him?
Toloshe Safaris
I was born in 1943 but l never had the privilege to personally meet Jim Corbett . However , l own all the books ever written by this great man .
In regards to your second question , why yes. I was just sent an excellent article about Mr. Corbett's rifles last week by fellow forum member , Hoss Delgado. It is an excellent piece of writing.
 

Kawshik Rahman

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What? No, I own and use a nine shot semi auto FN Browning whale back shotgun...licenced....

Not sure where you get your info?
IvW
On a related subject.
Thank you for bringing these nine shot pieces to my attention. I was only aware of the Belgian Browning auto loader 12 bores which held five cartridges .
 

Wyatt Smith

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IvW
On a related subject.
Thank you for bringing these nine shot pieces to my attention. I was only aware of the Belgian Browning auto loader 12 bores which held five cartridges .
They made 16 bore and I believe 20s also. Some of the 16s were called “sweet sixteen” and those are highly desirable. I’m sure the others know more than I do about them and would be glad to tell you
 

IvW

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I'm probably one of the very few people that has no affection towards the .300WM .375H&H / Ruger & .416 in all its forms.

I dislike the .416 Rigby

It is pretty obvious, my opinion regarding the .458WM will be in support of this underdog.

Three of the best calibers ever invented and most widely used by professionals and visiting hunters alike yet you do not like them? Very strange....

Recoil seems to be the main factor

The old man & I obtained a .458WM with the intention of converting it to a Lott, but due to the endless license issues in SA, we decided to give the WM a try & surprisingly we both fell in love with it.

No need to re licence, get a gunsmith to fill in the alteration to firearm form, make a small motivation and away you go...

The mild recoil makes it a pleasure to shoot, despite being a Musgrave push feed,( I can imagine the critics going nuts about this double whammy for a DG gun) it functions flawlessly, is accurate as can be & it kills what it is aimed at.
Reloading 450grn / 480grn Peregrine bullets (another sh!t in the pants moment, light for caliber bullets!) the old man has taken from jackal to lion & if we can get the bloody time, buffalo, hippo & elephant without a doubt.

With modern ammunition, the .458WM has come to its own right as a capable DG rifle. Probably not the best choice as a PH rifle, but heck, I know of plenty PH's that legally guides with a .375 which I don't consider a stopping rifle.

Again recoil....

I own a Musgrave push feed with the puny extractor claw. Take the bolt out and look at its construction and see how it is held in place in the bolt and then think about relying on that to extract the spent case of a high pressure cartridge in the heat of a DG hunt in the Zambezi valley in October for example....The one I own is a mini model 90 limited edition rifle, yes very accurate but every now and again the extractor dislodges itself from the bolt...it is only in 222 Rem....

Only reason for using lighter bullets is due to the case capacity issues, if it delivered what it should with the 500 gr bullets there would be no need for it or the rifle is rather used for PG instead of DG....or owners step down in weight and try and convince themselves that no they have the ultimate rifle that could not achieve what it was supposed to in the first place...

With South African powders 500gr bullets are plodding along at below 2000 fps, not my idea of a DG cartridge...

A lion is soft skinned and not hard skinned using a 450gr in 458 caliber is not a good idea for elephant....

Most PH's own and use a 375H&H and is in most cases the first rifle they buy, however the ones who regularly hunt DG step up to larger calibers most start at the 458 Lott or larger, very few use the 458 WM by choice....

I sincerely hope your rifle does not fail in the critical moment and you have a safe and successful DG hunt on the animals you still wish to hunt.
 

IvW

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IvW
On a related subject.
Thank you for bringing these nine shot pieces to my attention. I was only aware of the Belgian Browning auto loader 12 bores which held five cartridges .

This one seems to have a magazine extension fitted which extends past the original barrel. The barrel was also extended, something I have never seen on any other shotgun before. This does not effect the operation or accuracy of the shotgun and it functions without any issues. Over the tube where the long recoil spring is located it has a brass fitting that slides up and down during firing. This is used to adjust the function of the shotgun and is put on the one side for lower cartridges such as 28 gram and then on the other side when using 35 gram cartridges.

It holds 8 in the mag and one in the chamber if desired. I originally bought it for self defense but have used it often on pigeons and doves.

I should take it out and take some pictures.
 

Kawshik Rahman

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They made 16 bore and I believe 20s also. Some of the 16s were called “sweet sixteen” and those are highly desirable. I’m sure the others know more than I do about them and would be glad to tell you
Wyatt Smith
This is most educational . In Bangladesh , they the Browning 12 bore auto loader is very popular among hunters and for home defense. The 70 millimeter cartridge version would always get imported , but since the last decade the 76 millimeter cartridge version has also been imported . My niece uses use with slug type bullets for Chital deer.
 

kurpfalzjäger

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Interesting discussions, & thanks to the OP for the entertaining stories from India's glory days.

I'm probably one of the very few people that has no affection towards the .300WM .375H&H / Ruger & .416 in all its forms.
I am however captured by the .300H&H, 9.3, 404, 450/400Ne, 450Ne & .470Ne. Believe me if I say I really cant put my finger on it as to why precisely, besides from the fact that I perceive these calibers to be practical in their functions , recoil vs ability & moderate velocities. There is also just the look to what I like about the form of these cases. Its somewhat hard to explain so I will call it an emotional attraction to the somewhat underdogs vs the raved about champions...
I dislike the .416 Rigby due to the obnoxious fellow that introduced me to the caliber when I was a young boy & the BS he spewed over his safe queen.

It is pretty obvious, my opinion regarding the .458WM will be in support of this underdog.
I used to be skeptical as a result of all the critics , historical, current by all & sundry whether professional or not but blasting away with an opinion of their own. Some with plausible credit, others based purely on conclusion from literature.
The old man & I obtained a .458WM with the intention of converting it to a Lott, but due to the endless license issues in SA, we decided to give the WM a try & surprisingly we both fell in love with it. The mild recoil makes it a pleasure to shoot, despite being a Musgrave push feed,( I can imagine the critics going nuts about this double whammy for a DG gun) it functions flawlessly, is accurate as can be & it kills what it is aimed at.
Reloading 450grn / 480grn Peregrine bullets (another sh!t in the pants moment, light for caliber bullets!) the old man has taken from jackal to lion & if we can get the bloody time, buffalo, hippo & elephant without a doubt.

With modern ammunition, the .458WM has come to its own right as a capable DG rifle. Probably not the best choice as a PH rifle, but heck, I know of plenty PH's that legally guides with a .375 which I don't consider a stopping rifle.


I don't want to disagree explicit with you , first because I don't live in Africa and secondly because of my English , I don't want to be misunderstood. Furthermore , for the most part i am in agreement with the statements of @IvW.

Nevertheless , I also find it strange that you reject very good cartridges like the 416 Rigby and praise highly other old-fashioned cartridges or compromises like the 458 Win Mag.

Today we have a very large selection of good rifles with good cartridges for DG hunting , so that we are not dependent on these different compromises , like all the ones you have to close with the cartridge 458 Win Mag for example. Also in terms of price are such rifles accessible for PH.
 
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mark-hunter

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@kurpfalzjäger

Selection of cartridges - calibers, is not always based on cartridge and calibers performance (which one is better), but also with two other things to consider:

1) price of ammunition, and availability of ammunition in local shops
2) availability and price of rifles in certain calibers.

For example: from the beginning 458 wm was designed to fit standard action of rifle winchester 70, and for american middle class market. And it remains in this category.

Then, I am not aware of many budget rifles chambered in other calibers like 416 rigby, 404 jef.... etc

For example, on DG calibers, serbian zastava produces mauser type rifle m70, only in 375 H&H, and 458 wm.... Thats it.

So who ever is limited in budget and market-offer options , will have to look in direction of 458 wm, for instance.
The only other rifle brand in budget pricing that comes to mind is CZ 550, with quite good selection of DG calibers.

And thats about it.

Ruger and other american brands produce rifle in proprietary calibers such as 375 Ruger, and it reduces avialiability of ammunitaion in local shops.
There is also a number of 416 calibers in same manner. For example: 416 Taylor, 416 Wby. Mag, 416 Dakota, .416 Rem. Mag., .416 Ruger, etc)

(we just yesterday had example of availability of .460 WBY ammo, in state of Texas)

So, basic question is, from all calibers good enough in DG performance:
- what is available, and what is economic?
- Not what is better or the best.

That is the main point of view when considering 458 wm caliber.
 

Hoss Delgado

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What? No, I own and use a nine shot semi auto FN Browning whale back shotgun...licenced....

Not sure where you get your info?
But IvW, in my thread " Buckshot and leopard : fact or fiction ? " another member posted a video of leopards being hunted from a Jeep with semi auto shotguns and you had commented that the hunt was illegal because semi autos weren't allowed in Africa ?
PS : Do you ever use your poor man's Double with shot for bird hunting ?
 

Kawshik Rahman

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@kurpfalzjäger

Selection of cartridges - calibers, is not always based on cartridge and calibers performance (which one is better), but also with two other things to consider:

1) price of ammunition, and availability of ammunition in local shops
2) availability and price of rifles in certain calibers.

For example: from the beginning 458 wm was designed to fit standard action of rifle winchester 70, and for american middle class market. And it remains in this category.

Then, I am not aware of many budget rifles chambered in other calibers like 416 rigby, 404 jef.... etc

For example, on DG calibers, serbian zastava produces mauser type rifle m70, only in 375 H&H, and 458 wm.... Thats it.

So who ever is limited in budget and market-offer options , will have to look in direction of 458 wm, for instance.
The only other rifle brand in budget pricing that comes to mind is CZ 550, with quite good selection of DG calibers.

And thats about it.

Ruger and other american brands produce rifle in proprietary calibers such as 375 Ruger, and it reduces avialiability of ammunitaion in local shops.
There is also a number of 416 calibers in same manner. For example: 416 Taylor, 416 Wby. Mag, 416 Dakota, .416 Rem. Mag., .416 Ruger, etc)

(we just yesterday had example of availability of .460 WBY ammo, in state of Texas)

So, basic question is, from all calibers good enough in DG performance:
- what is available, and what is economic?
- Not what is better or the best.

That is the main point of view when considering 458 wm caliber.
Mark Hunter
I was having a most interesting telephone conversation last night with my old friend , Don Fernando Delgado ( Hoss's grandfather ) about this topic . Fernando hunted a bull elephant in Kenya in 1968 . He recalls that in Kenya at the time , the .375 Holland and Holland magnum and the .458 Winchester magnum cartridges were the universal cartridges for shooting Africa's dangerous animals ( similar to India ) and that nothing else was popular ( or even available ) . He also reported that the .458 Winchester magnum cartridge was notorious at that time for failing to deliver a satisfactory performance . He also went on to say that , in light of this , many hunters went after all of Africa's " Big five " with a .375 Holland and Holland magnum .
Today , however , modern powders and bullet manufacturing techniques have indeed eliminated the problems of the old days . However , from my humble perspective , taking cartridge availability , cartridge affordability and the fact that most hunters can handle the recoil , l dare say that most hunters will visit Africa for generations to come , with a .375 Holland and Holland magnum calibre rifle .
 

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Loved By Some, Loathed By Many, But Known By All
my wife said as she looked over my shoulder for a moment
"Are you discussing Donald Trump? :sneaky:
 

kurpfalzjäger

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So, basic question is, from all calibers good enough in DG performance:
- what is available, and what is economic?
- Not what is better or the best.

That is the main point of view when considering 458 wm caliber.


I totally agree with you , the financial aspect and the availability are very good arguments for select a rifle and a cartridge.

But IMHO does not justified the statement from some that these selected cartridges are the best one , nobody needs more , and who uses something else is an amateur or an tourist.
 

Foxi

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Obviously, we have lots of smart people here in Texas!

maybe the future trade embargo with Colorado will also contribute to this.
:)
 
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