The Cartridge Which Is Loved By Some, Loathed By Many, But Known By All

Discussion in 'Articles' started by Kawshik Rahman, Nov 10, 2019.

  1. Jaws

    Jaws AH Senior Member

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    Thank you Mr Rahman,

    Unfortunately I think it wont ever be the case, but it is nice to dream of an era when those ideas were possibilities.
    The .458WM I mentioned belongs to my father & has become his favorite, my exposure to it has certainly started a keen fondness of it, but I have my own rifles which I have come to appreciate and fancy to have on an adventure.
    The 9.3 x 62 is an all round rifle I cannot fault but it does have its limitations. Mine is used for small to medium & certain large game (Warthog, Impala,Gnu Kudu, Eland )
    Guar I know very little about, but my preference would be my scoped .404J. in recent times I have come to adore this caliber for just about all game as a result of its moderate velocities, but can do everything the 9.3 does & more with perhaps exception to be able to take longer shots, but my comfort levels are to 300m & less for plains type game & usually for the pot, to which I have better suited rifles to choose from.

    For the thickets where dangerous game is to be encountered at close ranges of 40M & less, I would gladly carry my 470Ne or 450/400Ne where a scope is not ideal.

    This probably explains why no diversified hunter can be satisfied with only one rifle and not a single caliber can truly be the ultimate best for all purposes & situations.
     
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  2. CoElkHunter

    CoElkHunter AH Fanatic

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    crs,
    You certainly seem to have your needs in order! Wish I could organize mine like that! Ha! Ha!
    Nice hunting photo by the way with your large game animal and the LEVER ACTION rifle you took it with!
    CEH
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2019
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  3. crs

    crs AH Fanatic

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    Jaws said "it functions flawlessly, is accurate as can be & it kills what it is aimed at."

    Thank you Jaws! The simple truth shorn of all the trivial BS that often accompanies such discussion.

    That is how I feel about all my rifles regardless of caliber. IMHO, Killing what it is aimed at is the purpose of a rifle. If they do not live up, they are passed on.

    In fact, I may add that to my footnote.
     
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  4. Tokoloshe Safaris

    Tokoloshe Safaris SPONSOR Since 2017 AH Fanatic

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    Mister Rahman, I grew up reading Jim Corbetts fine books, I still re-read them about once a year. I have two questions for you. 1. Did you ever meet him? 2. Do you know of any excellent books written not by him but about him?
     
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  5. IvW

    IvW AH Legend

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    What? No, I own and use a nine shot semi auto FN Browning whale back shotgun...licenced....

    Not sure where you get your info?
     
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  6. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    Toloshe Safaris
    I was born in 1943 but l never had the privilege to personally meet Jim Corbett . However , l own all the books ever written by this great man .
    In regards to your second question , why yes. I was just sent an excellent article about Mr. Corbett's rifles last week by fellow forum member , Hoss Delgado. It is an excellent piece of writing.
     

  7. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    IvW
    On a related subject.
    Thank you for bringing these nine shot pieces to my attention. I was only aware of the Belgian Browning auto loader 12 bores which held five cartridges .
     

  8. Wyatt Smith

    Wyatt Smith AH Enthusiast

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    They made 16 bore and I believe 20s also. Some of the 16s were called “sweet sixteen” and those are highly desirable. I’m sure the others know more than I do about them and would be glad to tell you
     
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  9. IvW

    IvW AH Legend

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    Three of the best calibers ever invented and most widely used by professionals and visiting hunters alike yet you do not like them? Very strange....

    Recoil seems to be the main factor

    No need to re licence, get a gunsmith to fill in the alteration to firearm form, make a small motivation and away you go...

    Again recoil....

    I own a Musgrave push feed with the puny extractor claw. Take the bolt out and look at its construction and see how it is held in place in the bolt and then think about relying on that to extract the spent case of a high pressure cartridge in the heat of a DG hunt in the Zambezi valley in October for example....The one I own is a mini model 90 limited edition rifle, yes very accurate but every now and again the extractor dislodges itself from the bolt...it is only in 222 Rem....

    Only reason for using lighter bullets is due to the case capacity issues, if it delivered what it should with the 500 gr bullets there would be no need for it or the rifle is rather used for PG instead of DG....or owners step down in weight and try and convince themselves that no they have the ultimate rifle that could not achieve what it was supposed to in the first place...

    With South African powders 500gr bullets are plodding along at below 2000 fps, not my idea of a DG cartridge...

    A lion is soft skinned and not hard skinned using a 450gr in 458 caliber is not a good idea for elephant....

    Most PH's own and use a 375H&H and is in most cases the first rifle they buy, however the ones who regularly hunt DG step up to larger calibers most start at the 458 Lott or larger, very few use the 458 WM by choice....

    I sincerely hope your rifle does not fail in the critical moment and you have a safe and successful DG hunt on the animals you still wish to hunt.
     
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  10. IvW

    IvW AH Legend

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    This one seems to have a magazine extension fitted which extends past the original barrel. The barrel was also extended, something I have never seen on any other shotgun before. This does not effect the operation or accuracy of the shotgun and it functions without any issues. Over the tube where the long recoil spring is located it has a brass fitting that slides up and down during firing. This is used to adjust the function of the shotgun and is put on the one side for lower cartridges such as 28 gram and then on the other side when using 35 gram cartridges.

    It holds 8 in the mag and one in the chamber if desired. I originally bought it for self defense but have used it often on pigeons and doves.

    I should take it out and take some pictures.
     
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  11. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    Wyatt Smith
    This is most educational . In Bangladesh , they the Browning 12 bore auto loader is very popular among hunters and for home defense. The 70 millimeter cartridge version would always get imported , but since the last decade the 76 millimeter cartridge version has also been imported . My niece uses use with slug type bullets for Chital deer.
     
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  12. kurpfalzjäger

    kurpfalzjäger AH Veteran

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    I don't want to disagree explicit with you , first because I don't live in Africa and secondly because of my English , I don't want to be misunderstood. Furthermore , for the most part i am in agreement with the statements of @IvW.

    Nevertheless , I also find it strange that you reject very good cartridges like the 416 Rigby and praise highly other old-fashioned cartridges or compromises like the 458 Win Mag.

    Today we have a very large selection of good rifles with good cartridges for DG hunting , so that we are not dependent on these different compromises , like all the ones you have to close with the cartridge 458 Win Mag for example. Also in terms of price are such rifles accessible for PH.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
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  13. mark-hunter

    mark-hunter AH Fanatic

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    @kurpfalzjäger

    Selection of cartridges - calibers, is not always based on cartridge and calibers performance (which one is better), but also with two other things to consider:

    1) price of ammunition, and availability of ammunition in local shops
    2) availability and price of rifles in certain calibers.

    For example: from the beginning 458 wm was designed to fit standard action of rifle winchester 70, and for american middle class market. And it remains in this category.

    Then, I am not aware of many budget rifles chambered in other calibers like 416 rigby, 404 jef.... etc

    For example, on DG calibers, serbian zastava produces mauser type rifle m70, only in 375 H&H, and 458 wm.... Thats it.

    So who ever is limited in budget and market-offer options , will have to look in direction of 458 wm, for instance.
    The only other rifle brand in budget pricing that comes to mind is CZ 550, with quite good selection of DG calibers.

    And thats about it.

    Ruger and other american brands produce rifle in proprietary calibers such as 375 Ruger, and it reduces avialiability of ammunitaion in local shops.
    There is also a number of 416 calibers in same manner. For example: 416 Taylor, 416 Wby. Mag, 416 Dakota, .416 Rem. Mag., .416 Ruger, etc)

    (we just yesterday had example of availability of .460 WBY ammo, in state of Texas)

    So, basic question is, from all calibers good enough in DG performance:
    - what is available, and what is economic?
    - Not what is better or the best.

    That is the main point of view when considering 458 wm caliber.
     

  14. Hoss Delgado

    Hoss Delgado AH Fanatic

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    But IvW, in my thread " Buckshot and leopard : fact or fiction ? " another member posted a video of leopards being hunted from a Jeep with semi auto shotguns and you had commented that the hunt was illegal because semi autos weren't allowed in Africa ?
    PS : Do you ever use your poor man's Double with shot for bird hunting ?
     
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  15. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    I was having a most interesting telephone conversation last night with my old friend , Don Fernando Delgado ( Hoss's grandfather ) about this topic . Fernando hunted a bull elephant in Kenya in 1968 . He recalls that in Kenya at the time , the .375 Holland and Holland magnum and the .458 Winchester magnum cartridges were the universal cartridges for shooting Africa's dangerous animals ( similar to India ) and that nothing else was popular ( or even available ) . He also reported that the .458 Winchester magnum cartridge was notorious at that time for failing to deliver a satisfactory performance . He also went on to say that , in light of this , many hunters went after all of Africa's " Big five " with a .375 Holland and Holland magnum .
    Today , however , modern powders and bullet manufacturing techniques have indeed eliminated the problems of the old days . However , from my humble perspective , taking cartridge availability , cartridge affordability and the fact that most hunters can handle the recoil , l dare say that most hunters will visit Africa for generations to come , with a .375 Holland and Holland magnum calibre rifle .
     
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  16. mark-hunter

    mark-hunter AH Fanatic

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    Dear mr Rahman, well noted!
     
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  17. Foxi

    Foxi AH Elite

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    Loved By Some, Loathed By Many, But Known By All
    my wife said as she looked over my shoulder for a moment
    "Are you discussing Donald Trump? :sneaky:
     

  18. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    Now that l think of it , that would make Mr. Trump the .458 Winchester magnum calibre of American Presidents.
     

  19. kurpfalzjäger

    kurpfalzjäger AH Veteran

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    I totally agree with you , the financial aspect and the availability are very good arguments for select a rifle and a cartridge.

    But IMHO does not justified the statement from some that these selected cartridges are the best one , nobody needs more , and who uses something else is an amateur or an tourist.
     

  20. Foxi

    Foxi AH Elite

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    maybe the future trade embargo with Colorado will also contribute to this.
    :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
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