The Cartridge Which Is Loved By Some, Loathed By Many, But Known By All

Kawshik Rahman

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Dear Mr. @Kawshik Rahman you are a Bloody Legend! Make no mistake thats a Compliment on our great continent.
Thats a lot of data that you have reviewed to identify the members who have discussed the .458, me being one of them.
I read some bad reports on them shortly after buying my first Elephant gun as an impulse buy. I had fired a .375H&H and got a kick out of it, pardon the pun. I bought a .458 on special. My wife likes it because I smile when I fire it.
But I read the good the bad and the ugly soon finding that the bad publicity was mainly due to some historic issues that have long been rectified with modern components. Jacques Lott lived with a tale to tell and left a legacy to boot!
I was satisfied that was the case. But I also decided I wanted the iconic .375H&H. I could not justify both so I bought the .375 and sold the .458.
My 17 year old twin nieces were there when I let the first few rounds fly in the .375 and had no hesitation in lining up to shoot the elephant gun before there father arrived, he won’t live that one down.
Anyway, thanks for the reading Rawshik you have entertained many of us. Don’t give all of your stories to @Hoss Delgado , maybe write your own book. The more I read the better your English writing becomes.
Perhaps @Red Leg can get a .458 barrel for that straight pull thing he loves and do some reviews. I’m sure the .458 is quite suitable for the bear he will pursue (envious)
I was satisfied from reading many reviews the .458wm is a stopping rifle. I also hope I shoot well enough with the .375 to use it as a dropping rifle dropping my target when it counts.
Maybe I would consider a .416 if I could justify it but there are some avid .404 fans here.
Good luck and good health Mr Rahman, keep writing.
CBH Australia
I am heartfelt by your kind words and support. Indeed , at my age , l find that l appreciate most fire arms and cartridges and respect them all ( even if l personally prefer some over others a little bit more )
I look forward to any review given by Red Leg as there is much to learn from him. Perhaps , some day l will also write my own book . However , rest assured . Hoss Delgado is a far greater and more competent writer than l ever can aspire to be , with a far greater degree of knowledge on many modern fire arms.
 

Kawshik Rahman

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My PH in Botswana in 1990 carried a SxS in .458 Win. Boy he got red face, cussing, screaming mad:eek::eek::mad::mad::mad: when he saw it in the bottom of the makoro sloshing around in bilge water!! :eek:It was soft cased but man oh man I sure felt bad for the tracker who had to endure this and other verbal onslaughts!:(
Sestoppelman
That is most fascinating . May l ask what firm made the rifle ? The one which my client used , was made by the firm , Holland and Holland. And regulated for the Remington pattern of cartridge .
 

Kawshik Rahman

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Mr. Rahman, did you get any clients who used a 404 Jeffrey? CBH got me thinking about it and I can’t recall you ever mentioning it.
Wyatt Smith
Please forgive me . I do not have any experience with this cartridge personally. I have however , read of it in many books and articles which Hoss Delgado sends me . During my time , the three largest calibre's brought by client Shikaris to India were ( from smallest to largest ) :
1) 9.3 millimeter mauser
2) .375 Holland and Holland magnum
3) .458 Winchester magnum.
However , you will find this interesting.
The client who owned the double barrel rifle calibrated for .458 Winchester magnum , used to previously bring a .400 bore double barrel rifle made by the English firm , Jeffery for his Shikars . He would use an old stock of ICI Kynoch 400 grain metal envelope blunt head cartridges , to secure Gaurs . It was only after he had expended his existing stock of cartridges for this calibre , that he had Holland and Holland build him that luxurious double barrel rifle in .458 Winchester magnum , because ammunition for it was widely available in his home country.
I understand that the .400 bore cartridge is the double barrel rifle equivalent of the .404 Jeffery cartridge.
 

kurpfalzjäger

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Observe this picture , kindly provided to me by fellow forum member , Hoss Delgado . It is a comparison of the .458 Winchester magnum cartridge with the beloved .375 Holland and Holland magnum cartridge.
The cartridge case of the .375 bore is of 76 millimeter length . It fires a 300 grain bullet with superb penetration , because of that 76 millimeter cartridge case worth of propellant powder .
The .458 Winchester magnum has a 500 grain bullet ( exactly 200 grains heavier ) , yet it has a 65 millimeter cartridge case length . An issue is very visibly evident . If the .458 Winchester magnum's bullet is heavier than the .375 Holland and Holland magnum bullet , then why does it have a smaller case worth of powder , instead of a larger case's worth of powder ?


1) Either , they reduce the size of the bullet to accomodate a larger charge of powder. This is a compromise , as it means a lighter bullet.
2) They can get much closer to the beast to shoot it , so that velocities generated by the reduced charge of powder is of no consequence . The unsafe nature of this act , is foolhardy in and of itself ( although , many brave men have done so in days gone past )
3) They find some way to compress the necessary charge of powder into that 65 millimeter cartridge case . How successful , this has been , l cannot say .
4) They develop a propellant powder which generates the requisite velocity by using a quantity small enough to fit the 65 millimeter cartridge case . How successful , this has been , l again , cannot say.

There's the problem , the case is too small for an 500gr bullet.

1) If Winchester had offered right from the beginning this cartridge with a 450gr SP and FMJ bullet , we would have spared us 60 years of discussion. But when I speak of 450gr bullet , I mean classic SP or FMJ bullets , no Nosler Partition , A-Frame or lead-free bullets , they are too long again.

2) You have no choice , the cartridge is best suited for backup and close combat.

3) Does not work well , it's not safe at long time.

4) I don't think there is such a thing , you need space for the gas or you will create unsafe pressures.

That's the objective opinion of a 460 WM user !:)
 
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Kawshik Rahman

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There's the problem , the case is too small for an 500gr bullet.

1) If Winchester had offered right from the beginning this cartridge with a 450gr SP and FMJ bullet , we would have spared us 60 years of discussion. But when I speak of 450gr bullet , I mean classic SP or FMJ bullets , no Nosler Partition , A-Frame or lead-free bullets , they are too long again.

2) You have no choice , the cartridge is best suited for backup and close combat.

3) Does not work well , it's not safe at long time.

4) I don't think there is such a thing , you need space for the gas or you will create unsafe pressures.

That's the objective opinion of a 460 WM user !:)
Kurpfalzjager
Thank you so much for explaining to me everything in a scientific manner.
Personally , l prefer the .375 Holland and Holland magnum over the .458 Winchester magnum , preferably built on a specific mauser mechanism called the " Brevex " which was designed by French arms manufacturers ( sadly , it is very rare . I have only seen one such rifle in my entire life ) .
The .460 Weatherby magnum was a life long desire of mine to shoot. It is reportedly Roy Weatherby's greatest invention and the most powerful commercially made sporting cartridge available . Do you use shop bought ammunition or do you load your own cartridges ?
 

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Ben KK
This is most impressive. Those beasts look like Kuch Bihar water buffaloes .
Does your model 70 rifle have the mauser type extracting claw device ?
Thank you, Mr Rahman. Two are feral water buffalo (Bubalus bubalis) and one is a feral scrub bull (Bos taurus, in this case).

I no-longer own this rifle, and can’t recall much of the technical information about it, only that it was made in the 1990s (I think).

I am currently having a Mauser .458WM made.
 

kurpfalzjäger

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Kurpfalzjager
Thank you so much for explaining to me everything in a scientific manner.
Personally , l prefer the .375 Holland and Holland magnum over the .458 Winchester magnum , preferably built on a specific mauser mechanism called the " Brevex " which was designed by French arms manufacturers ( sadly , it is very rare . I have only seen one such rifle in my entire life ) .
The .460 Weatherby magnum was a life long desire of mine to shoot. It is reportedly Roy Weatherby's greatest invention and the most powerful commercially made sporting cartridge available . Do you use shop bought ammunition or do you load your own cartridges ?
I initially fired factory ammo. But I had pressure problems in the heat of Africa due to the very strong charge of the first Weatherby cartridges. Since then I make my "tropical loads".

My rifle caliber 460WM is a old classic one built in France in the seventies on a Brevex Mauser action.
 

Kawshik Rahman

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Thank you, Mr Rahman. Two are feral water buffalo (Bubalus bubalis) and one is a feral scrub bull (Bos taurus, in this case).

I no-longer own this rifle, and can’t recall much of the technical information about it, only that it was made in the 1990s (I think).

I am currently having a Mauser .458WM made.
Ben KK
Oh. Your species look similar to our Indian species , except for a slight difference in the way the horns curve.
 

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I'm not just saying this coz you're helping me write my book ( for free , l might add :) ) . 2k19 is almost over , and l can honestly tell you , Mr. K ...
You're the greatest contribution to AH forums of 2k19 :D
Now , back to guns ! The only way l see someone successfully making the .458 Win Mag into a good gun is by using lighter monometal solids to handload their own ammo... Think 465 grain cutting edge monolithic meplat brass Solids .
According to my research , Terry Irwin and Mike LaGrange are the only guys who actually spoke highly of the .458 Win Mag . Terry handloaded with 500 gr FMJ round nose solids . Mike used 500 grain Hornady DGS for the elephant culls in the '80s .
BTW , l got three rounds of .460 WBY MAG for ya to try when you come to the states . Will that do ? :D
 

Kawshik Rahman

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I'm not just saying this coz you're helping me write my book ( for free , l might add :) ) . 2k19 is almost over , and l can honestly tell you , Mr. K ...
You're the greatest contribution to AH forums of 2k19 :D
Now , back to guns ! The only way l see someone successfully making the .458 Win Mag into a good gun is by using lighter monometal solids to handload their own ammo... Think 465 grain cutting edge monolithic meplat brass Solids .
According to my research , Terry Irwin and Mike LaGrange are the only guys who actually spoke highly of the .458 Win Mag . Terry handloaded with 500 gr FMJ round nose solids . Mike used 500 grain Hornady DGS for the elephant culls in the '80s .
BTW , l got three rounds of .460 WBY MAG for ya to try when you come to the states . Will that do ? :D
Hoss Delgado
Thank you so much for your kind words and support.
Yes , three cartridges will be just fine.
 

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Thank you KR for the nice report and the wonderful old photos.
Controversies are safe with the caliber.
If you ask in the offices of the different National Parks in Africa which DG caliber(class .400 up) they mainly spend on their Game Warden, you won't be surprised by the answer.

"It is reportedly Roy Weatherby's greatest invention (the .460)........"
and yet nobody really shoots her in Africa, except a few tourists ;).
 

mark-hunter

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Dear mr Rahman
Thank you for yet another excellent article!
I am most impressed of the effort you made, of meticulous and concise research of opinion of forum members on this subject.
And, then of course, thank you for sharing your experiences with us!

Personally I am not biased against this calibre, although having no experience with it, but I consider it as option for DG hunt.
My view:
There are still many affordable bolt action rifles in this caliber.
And also there is sufficient supply of factory ammunition for this caliber on the market.
 

Kawshik Rahman

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Thank you KR for the nice report and the wonderful old photos.
Controversies are safe with the caliber.
If you ask in the offices of the different National Parks in Africa which DG caliber(class .400 up) they mainly spend on their Game Warden, you won't be surprised by the answer.

"It is reportedly Roy Weatherby's greatest invention (the .460)........"
and yet nobody really shoots her in Africa, except a few tourists ;).
Foxi
Thank you so much for your kind words and support . Have you ever had a dream from youth to try a certain calibre , JUST because you want to ( without any practical basis ) ? Indeed , that is how l feel about the .460 Weatherby magnum cartridge. For the last five decades , it was my dream to always be able to fire one some day. And now , it looks like Hoss Delgado will finally make that dream come true. During my time , l always hoped that a client would bring one to Darjeeling for Shikar so that l could try it . However , it was never to be.
 

kurpfalzjäger

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Thank you KR for the nice report and the wonderful old photos.
Controversies are safe with the caliber.
If you ask in the offices of the different National Parks in Africa which DG caliber(class .400 up) they mainly spend on their Game Warden, you won't be surprised by the answer.

"It is reportedly Roy Weatherby's greatest invention (the .460)........"
and yet nobody really shoots her in Africa, except a few tourists ;).
It's not the topic , but the 460WM is the best cartridge caliber 45 available.

It is perfect for reloading so you can make a well balanced cartridge which really speeds up a 500gr bullet at 2400 fps to 2500 fps , which makes no other cartridge same caliber. Surely you can ask if you need that , but it is always better to have power reserve and not to need than the opposite. Certainly the recoil remains , but for some of us it seems to be no a problem , even without a muzzle break or the like. Tourists master this better than professionals , it's known !:)
 

Kawshik Rahman

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Dear mr Rahman
Thank you for yet another excellent article!
I am most impressed of the effort you made, of meticulous and concise research of opinion of forum members on this subject.
And, then of course, thank you for sharing your experiences with us!

Personally I am not biased against this calibre, although having no experience with it, but I consider it as option for DG hunt.
My view:
There are still many affordable bolt action rifles in this caliber.
And also there is sufficient supply of factory ammunition for this caliber on the market.
Mark Hunter
Dear mr Rahman
Thank you for yet another excellent article!
I am most impressed of the effort you made, of meticulous and concise research of opinion of forum members on this subject.
And, then of course, thank you for sharing your experiences with us!

Personally I am not biased against this calibre, although having no experience with it, but I consider it as option for DG hunt.
My view:
There are still many affordable bolt action rifles in this caliber.
And also there is sufficient supply of factory ammunition for this caliber on the market.
Based on some of the photographs you had shared with me , and what l know about your shooting style and your desire to hunt dangerous animals one day , l can tell that you are a gentleman who prioritizes accurate shot placement over the extra weight of a heavier bullet. For your needs , l should think that a good .375 Holland and Holland magnum calibre bolt operation rifle , built on a Brevex mechanism with 24 inch barrel and an eight pound weight , would suit you very well . And if legal , l am very confident that you could easily dispatch a Buffalo with your 9.3 millimeter mauser bolt operation rifle and a good soft head cartridge with a controlled rate of expansion. What do you think ?
 

Kawshik Rahman

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Dear mr Rahman
Thank you for yet another excellent article!
I am most impressed of the effort you made, of meticulous and concise research of opinion of forum members on this subject.
And, then of course, thank you for sharing your experiences with us!

Personally I am not biased against this calibre, although having no experience with it, but I consider it as option for DG hunt.
My view:
There are still many affordable bolt action rifles in this caliber.
And also there is sufficient supply of factory ammunition for this caliber on the market.
Mark Hunter
Dear mr Rahman
Thank you for yet another excellent article!
I am most impressed of the effort you made, of meticulous and concise research of opinion of forum members on this subject.
And, then of course, thank you for sharing your experiences with us!

Personally I am not biased against this calibre, although having no experience with it, but I consider it as option for DG hunt.
My view:
There are still many affordable bolt action rifles in this caliber.
And also there is sufficient supply of factory ammunition for this caliber on the market.
Based on some of the photographs you had shared with me , and what l know about your shooting style and your desire to hunt dangerous animals one day , l can tell that you are a gentleman who prioritizes accurate shot placement over the extra weight of a heavier bullet. For your needs , l should think that a good .375 Holland and Holland magnum calibre bolt operation rifle , built on a Brevex mechanism with 24 inch barrel and an eight pound weight , would suit you very well . And if legal , l am very confident that you could easily dispatch a Buffalo with your 9.3 millimeter mauser bolt operation rifle and a good soft head cartridge with a controlled rate of expansion. What do you think ?
 

kurpfalzjäger

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That was already a topic of discussion years ago , 375 H&H vs 458 Win Mag , and even 416 Rigby vs 458 Win Mag. Nothing comes out because the one has sometimes a leak on deep penetration but is better for the backup and vice versa.

But it also depends a lot on the quality of the bullets.
 

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Red Leg
Thank you , my friend for your excellent assessment of the .458 Winchester magnum cartridge in a double barrel rifle and helping me to understand things from a more scientific perspective.
Even though this Holland and Holland double barrel rifle was flawless , l concede that seeing only one rifle of it's class is in no way , an accurate method of gauging the suitability of a particular cartridge for a particular configuration of fire arm . Holland and Holland , are after all , one of the finest makers of sporting fire arms in the world .
I have two questions for you , which made me curious .
First , may l ask what is " Off face " ? Pondoro used the same terminology in my recent article " Rifles used for Royal Bengal tigers " . I assumed that he means that something bad will happen to the double barrel rifle by pro longed firing of .458 Winchester magnum cartridges .
Second , what firm made your .375 Holland and Holland magnum double barrel rifle ?
"Off-face" is a term for a double rifle or shotgun that no long fits tightly between barrel breeches and action face. The gun will seem to close tightly, but when closed and held up to a light, one can clearly see the thin gap. It is an important check when looking at older guns. Once this occurs, the action begins to loosen fairly quickly. In really bad cases, one can take the forearm off, shake the gun, and feel movement between barrels and action. This can happen over time to any gun, but is usually accelerated by using high pressure loads. Many English guns game guns are shot loose by ignorant or careless owners shooting 70mm 1 1/4 ounce loads through them - or buckshot, for which @Hoss Delgado seems to have a penchant. ;) Most traditional English double rifle calibers were designed to be low-pressure rounds to prevent this sort of damage. The .458, inevitably, will cause accelerated wear to the action.

I have a Blaser S2 double rifle with three sets of barrels - 30-06, 500-416, and .375. It is an amazing rifle that can be used differently than a traditional double (one reason a lot of the outdoor scribes didn't care for it - just not a "proper" double.) They are designed to be used with a scope if desired (standard Blaser mounting system). All my barrels shoot MOA from each barrel and composite groups of 2 - 2.5 inches at 100 meters. With the .375, I have double tapped a buffalo at seventy meters and taken a sable with a frontal presentation at just under 200. Remarkable rifle. Also, because it uses a non-traditional tilting block lock, it is essentially impossible to ever shoot off face.
 
 

 

 

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