The Cartridge Which Is Loved By Some, Loathed By Many, But Known By All

Discussion in 'Articles' started by Kawshik Rahman, Nov 10, 2019.

  1. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    CBH Australia
    I am heartfelt by your kind words and support. Indeed , at my age , l find that l appreciate most fire arms and cartridges and respect them all ( even if l personally prefer some over others a little bit more )
    I look forward to any review given by Red Leg as there is much to learn from him. Perhaps , some day l will also write my own book . However , rest assured . Hoss Delgado is a far greater and more competent writer than l ever can aspire to be , with a far greater degree of knowledge on many modern fire arms.
     
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  2. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    Sestoppelman
    That is most fascinating . May l ask what firm made the rifle ? The one which my client used , was made by the firm , Holland and Holland. And regulated for the Remington pattern of cartridge .
     
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  3. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    Wyatt Smith
    Please forgive me . I do not have any experience with this cartridge personally. I have however , read of it in many books and articles which Hoss Delgado sends me . During my time , the three largest calibre's brought by client Shikaris to India were ( from smallest to largest ) :
    1) 9.3 millimeter mauser
    2) .375 Holland and Holland magnum
    3) .458 Winchester magnum.
    However , you will find this interesting.
    The client who owned the double barrel rifle calibrated for .458 Winchester magnum , used to previously bring a .400 bore double barrel rifle made by the English firm , Jeffery for his Shikars . He would use an old stock of ICI Kynoch 400 grain metal envelope blunt head cartridges , to secure Gaurs . It was only after he had expended his existing stock of cartridges for this calibre , that he had Holland and Holland build him that luxurious double barrel rifle in .458 Winchester magnum , because ammunition for it was widely available in his home country.
    I understand that the .400 bore cartridge is the double barrel rifle equivalent of the .404 Jeffery cartridge.
     
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  4. kurpfalzjäger

    kurpfalzjäger AH Veteran

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    There's the problem , the case is too small for an 500gr bullet.

    1) If Winchester had offered right from the beginning this cartridge with a 450gr SP and FMJ bullet , we would have spared us 60 years of discussion. But when I speak of 450gr bullet , I mean classic SP or FMJ bullets , no Nosler Partition , A-Frame or lead-free bullets , they are too long again.

    2) You have no choice , the cartridge is best suited for backup and close combat.

    3) Does not work well , it's not safe at long time.

    4) I don't think there is such a thing , you need space for the gas or you will create unsafe pressures.

    That's the objective opinion of a 460 WM user !:)
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
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  5. BenKK

    BenKK AH Elite

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    IMG_5374.JPG

    IMG_5373.JPG

    IMG_5375.JPG

    Winchester Model 70 in .458WM, 500 grain Woodleigh softs and / or solids.
     

  6. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    Kurpfalzjager
    Thank you so much for explaining to me everything in a scientific manner.
    Personally , l prefer the .375 Holland and Holland magnum over the .458 Winchester magnum , preferably built on a specific mauser mechanism called the " Brevex " which was designed by French arms manufacturers ( sadly , it is very rare . I have only seen one such rifle in my entire life ) .
    The .460 Weatherby magnum was a life long desire of mine to shoot. It is reportedly Roy Weatherby's greatest invention and the most powerful commercially made sporting cartridge available . Do you use shop bought ammunition or do you load your own cartridges ?
     
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  7. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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  8. BenKK

    BenKK AH Elite

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    Thank you, Mr Rahman. Two are feral water buffalo (Bubalus bubalis) and one is a feral scrub bull (Bos taurus, in this case).

    I no-longer own this rifle, and can’t recall much of the technical information about it, only that it was made in the 1990s (I think).

    I am currently having a Mauser .458WM made.
     
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  9. kurpfalzjäger

    kurpfalzjäger AH Veteran

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    I initially fired factory ammo. But I had pressure problems in the heat of Africa due to the very strong charge of the first Weatherby cartridges. Since then I make my "tropical loads".

    My rifle caliber 460WM is a old classic one built in France in the seventies on a Brevex Mauser action.
     
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  10. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    Ben KK
    Oh. Your species look similar to our Indian species , except for a slight difference in the way the horns curve.
     

  11. Hoss Delgado

    Hoss Delgado AH Fanatic

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    I'm not just saying this coz you're helping me write my book ( for free , l might add :) ) . 2k19 is almost over , and l can honestly tell you , Mr. K ...
    You're the greatest contribution to AH forums of 2k19 :D
    Now , back to guns ! The only way l see someone successfully making the .458 Win Mag into a good gun is by using lighter monometal solids to handload their own ammo... Think 465 grain cutting edge monolithic meplat brass Solids .
    According to my research , Terry Irwin and Mike LaGrange are the only guys who actually spoke highly of the .458 Win Mag . Terry handloaded with 500 gr FMJ round nose solids . Mike used 500 grain Hornady DGS for the elephant culls in the '80s .
    BTW , l got three rounds of .460 WBY MAG for ya to try when you come to the states . Will that do ? :D
     

  12. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    Hoss Delgado
    Thank you so much for your kind words and support.
    Yes , three cartridges will be just fine.
     

  13. Foxi

    Foxi AH Elite

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    Thank you KR for the nice report and the wonderful old photos.
    Controversies are safe with the caliber.
    If you ask in the offices of the different National Parks in Africa which DG caliber(class .400 up) they mainly spend on their Game Warden, you won't be surprised by the answer.

    "It is reportedly Roy Weatherby's greatest invention (the .460)........"
    and yet nobody really shoots her in Africa, except a few tourists ;).
     
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  14. mark-hunter

    mark-hunter AH Fanatic

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    Dear mr Rahman
    Thank you for yet another excellent article!
    I am most impressed of the effort you made, of meticulous and concise research of opinion of forum members on this subject.
    And, then of course, thank you for sharing your experiences with us!

    Personally I am not biased against this calibre, although having no experience with it, but I consider it as option for DG hunt.
    My view:
    There are still many affordable bolt action rifles in this caliber.
    And also there is sufficient supply of factory ammunition for this caliber on the market.
     

  15. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    Foxi
    Thank you so much for your kind words and support . Have you ever had a dream from youth to try a certain calibre , JUST because you want to ( without any practical basis ) ? Indeed , that is how l feel about the .460 Weatherby magnum cartridge. For the last five decades , it was my dream to always be able to fire one some day. And now , it looks like Hoss Delgado will finally make that dream come true. During my time , l always hoped that a client would bring one to Darjeeling for Shikar so that l could try it . However , it was never to be.
     

  16. kurpfalzjäger

    kurpfalzjäger AH Veteran

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    It's not the topic , but the 460WM is the best cartridge caliber 45 available.

    It is perfect for reloading so you can make a well balanced cartridge which really speeds up a 500gr bullet at 2400 fps to 2500 fps , which makes no other cartridge same caliber. Surely you can ask if you need that , but it is always better to have power reserve and not to need than the opposite. Certainly the recoil remains , but for some of us it seems to be no a problem , even without a muzzle break or the like. Tourists master this better than professionals , it's known !:)
     
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  17. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    Mark Hunter
    Based on some of the photographs you had shared with me , and what l know about your shooting style and your desire to hunt dangerous animals one day , l can tell that you are a gentleman who prioritizes accurate shot placement over the extra weight of a heavier bullet. For your needs , l should think that a good .375 Holland and Holland magnum calibre bolt operation rifle , built on a Brevex mechanism with 24 inch barrel and an eight pound weight , would suit you very well . And if legal , l am very confident that you could easily dispatch a Buffalo with your 9.3 millimeter mauser bolt operation rifle and a good soft head cartridge with a controlled rate of expansion. What do you think ?
     

  18. Kawshik Rahman

    Kawshik Rahman AH Elite

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    Mark Hunter
    Based on some of the photographs you had shared with me , and what l know about your shooting style and your desire to hunt dangerous animals one day , l can tell that you are a gentleman who prioritizes accurate shot placement over the extra weight of a heavier bullet. For your needs , l should think that a good .375 Holland and Holland magnum calibre bolt operation rifle , built on a Brevex mechanism with 24 inch barrel and an eight pound weight , would suit you very well . And if legal , l am very confident that you could easily dispatch a Buffalo with your 9.3 millimeter mauser bolt operation rifle and a good soft head cartridge with a controlled rate of expansion. What do you think ?
     

  19. kurpfalzjäger

    kurpfalzjäger AH Veteran

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    That was already a topic of discussion years ago , 375 H&H vs 458 Win Mag , and even 416 Rigby vs 458 Win Mag. Nothing comes out because the one has sometimes a leak on deep penetration but is better for the backup and vice versa.

    But it also depends a lot on the quality of the bullets.
     
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  20. Red Leg

    Red Leg AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

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    "Off-face" is a term for a double rifle or shotgun that no long fits tightly between barrel breeches and action face. The gun will seem to close tightly, but when closed and held up to a light, one can clearly see the thin gap. It is an important check when looking at older guns. Once this occurs, the action begins to loosen fairly quickly. In really bad cases, one can take the forearm off, shake the gun, and feel movement between barrels and action. This can happen over time to any gun, but is usually accelerated by using high pressure loads. Many English guns game guns are shot loose by ignorant or careless owners shooting 70mm 1 1/4 ounce loads through them - or buckshot, for which @Hoss Delgado seems to have a penchant. ;) Most traditional English double rifle calibers were designed to be low-pressure rounds to prevent this sort of damage. The .458, inevitably, will cause accelerated wear to the action.

    I have a Blaser S2 double rifle with three sets of barrels - 30-06, 500-416, and .375. It is an amazing rifle that can be used differently than a traditional double (one reason a lot of the outdoor scribes didn't care for it - just not a "proper" double.) They are designed to be used with a scope if desired (standard Blaser mounting system). All my barrels shoot MOA from each barrel and composite groups of 2 - 2.5 inches at 100 meters. With the .375, I have double tapped a buffalo at seventy meters and taken a sable with a frontal presentation at just under 200. Remarkable rifle. Also, because it uses a non-traditional tilting block lock, it is essentially impossible to ever shoot off face.
     

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