Shooting vs Hunting / A Growing Ethical Issue

[WAB]

First of all, it is about hunting, not shooting. If one is into "shooting" at long range, train for Camp Perry. I personally have hunted mostly with iron sighted rifles (including muzzleloaders) and traditional bows. So, shots out to 100 yds with the rifles and 30 with the bows have been about my personal limits. And yes, I have hunted with scoped rifles, but never beyond 250 yds. or so. I personally believe anything much beyond those self-imposed distances gets into shooting and not hunting. Remember, it's about the chase, not the kill.

I have no problem with your approach at all. However, recognize that there are some hunts you simply can’t do this on. Some I have done that come to mind are Dall Sheep, Coues deer, desert mule deer. Spot and stalk bear on the flats and avalanche chutes would be pretty tough as well.

 

[RLD]

@Scott CWO - I don’t think Hunter Education for those born 1949 or later reduced hunting fatalities - it was Hunter ORANGE requirements that drastically reduced accidental shootings. NJ had Hunter Educcation requirements well before Hunter ORANGE was required — it was the ORANGE that reduced accidental shootings. I’m Not opposed to Hunter Education but it was having everyone dressed like a “Neon Sign” that kept people from getting shot.

Studies in Ontario showed a very large drop in hunting accidents after the institution of mandatory hunter training. Orange also produced signs ant improvement.

 

[skydiver386]

Nearly anyone can walk multiple rounds onto a target, it's putting the first round into the vitals that counts.

 

[Betterinthebush]

Never got a guy into position for a shot at a Dall ram <300yds. Tried hard, just couldn’t get it done. Never lost a ram.

Sheep hunting demands 2 things: no 3: physical fitness, mental fitness, and an understanding of long range marksmanship and trigonometry.. ok, four things…

Certain species demands certain disciplines of distance marksmanship.

 

[375Fox]

Never got a guy into position for a shot at a Dall ram <300yds. Tried hard, just couldn’t get it done. Never lost a ram.

Sheep hunting demands 2 things: no 3: physical fitness, mental fitness, and an understanding of long range marksmanship and trigonometry.. ok, four things…

Certain species demands certain disciplines of distance marksmanship.

Maybe in a particular area. Between myself, my dad, and my brother. We were 5/6 on dall sheep hunts in Yukon. Shots were just over 100 to just over 300 yards. All 3-9 scopes standard duplex. I don’t doubt long range shooting makes it much easier.

 

[WAB]

Never got a guy into position for a shot at a Dall ram <300yds. Tried hard, just couldn’t get it done. Never lost a ram.

Sheep hunting demands 2 things: no 3: physical fitness, mental fitness, and an understanding of long range marksmanship and trigonometry.. ok, four things…

Certain species demands certain disciplines of distance marksmanship.

 

[WAB]

Agreed. There was absolutely no way to close inside 300 on this ram. Anyone who thinks this wasn’t a real hunt needs to give it a try!!!

 

[Betterinthebush]

Sheep hunters are the best.

 

[roklok]

I believe Idaho enacted rifle weight restrictions (less than 16 pounds) quite a few years back in an effort to limit rifles such as 50 BMGs for hunting. I really doubt that has had much effect on long range shooting of or at game, plenty of folks are willing to shoot at long distances with lighter rifles and cartridges. I do not agree with trying to legislate ethics, that is a losing game. With that being said, I don't have an answer. Humanity is flawed, and there will always be those regardless of laws, codes, ethics who do what they please regardless.

I grew up in Pennsylvania. Deer hunting with pump and lever action rifles and conducting deer drives with large groups was normal there. Shooting at running deer was part of that, and I can guarantee you that literal tons of lead has been flung at deer in such a manner, with as much or more probability of wounded and lost game as the practice of long range shooting of game. Finding a crippled buck in the eastern thickets is a heck of a lot harder than following up on big game in open terrain conducive to long range shooting. I am not excusing hunters shooting beyond their limits in either scenario, I just wonder if the long range issue is really as big as some think it is.

 

[Safari Dave]

As a certified hunter education instructor in the U.S., all I can do is teach "ethics' and "sportsmanship."

I do "good-shot", "bad-shot" drill with pictures with my students, to try to enforce what is an "ethical" shot.

Most of the time the students agree with my recommendations on "ethical" shots on big-game.

Over the last 2-3 years, some of the students have gotten a bit more argumentative, when it comes to long range shots. (I'm sure their dads have influenced their thoughts.)

I don't want the government imposing limitations, because lawmakers never understand real world hunting situations.


IMO, this is something that the IHEA (International Hunter Education Association) should take up. (I recently attended the annual conference in Georgia.)

I want to be close enough to smell the animals that I hunt.

However, that is not practical, nor even realistic in some very ethical situations.


My only elk was at over 400 yards, because the situations that we faced that week left us with no other option.


It almost comes down to something like, "If you know that you can put your bullet within a 6 inch circle in the vitals at that range," it is an ethical shot.

But, we all know that it is more complicated than that (bullet construction, terminal energy, etc.) , but how do you teach it, along with everything else, in 8 hours???

 

[Scott CWO]

@Scott CWO - I don’t think Hunter Education for those born 1949 or later reduced hunting fatalities - it was Hunter ORANGE requirements that drastically reduced accidental shootings. NJ had Hunter Educcation requirements well before Hunter ORANGE was required — it was the ORANGE that reduced accidental shootings. I’m Not opposed to Hunter Education but it was having everyone dressed like a “Neon Sign” that kept people from getting shot.

I strongly but respectfully disagree. There are western states that do not even require orange clothing and others require only a hat. We are not seeing deaths in those states either. What they all have in common is hunter education. Are you against mandatory hunter education??

 

[375Fox]

I grew up in Pennsylvania. Deer hunting with pump and lever action rifles and conducting deer drives with large groups was normal there. Shooting at running deer was part of that, and I can guarantee you that literal tons of lead has been flung at deer in such a manner, with as much or more probability of wounded and lost game as the practice of long range shooting of game. Finding a crippled buck in the eastern thickets is a heck of a lot harder than following up on big game in open terrain conducive to long range shooting. I am not excusing hunters shooting beyond their limits in either scenario, I just wonder if the long range issue is really as big as some think it is.

I honestly miss deer drives, but they do have a high potential of wounded deer depending how they are done. Antler restrictions have really slowed enthusiasm for deer drives. They are not nearly as common or as large as they once were. Most opt to sit in stands. My point with that is regulations can change behaviors. We have a significantly better buck to doe ratio and many more 2.5 and 3.5 year old bucks than we previously had.

 

[Scott CWO]

Welcome to my world! Lol. Then there are the guys telling me that they want to shoot at a bull elk at 200 yards with open sights on a muzzleloader!

To think that last week on this website I also had someone debating me when I said I don’t allow clients to take initial shots over 200 yards at dangerous game!

 

[R eight]

I’ve read most, probably all, of this tread and it seems to me that many of us are using different dictionaries to define “ethics”.

Perhaps the easiest and most efficient way to ensure the use of a universal definition would be to link it to a monetary value. In short you draw blood, your tag is punched.

Easy to ensure on guided hunts. But, probably only enforceable by one’s own conscience and peer pressure on self guided adventures.

 

[Safari Dave]

First "blaze orange" and now "blaze pink."

I think a little is probably a good thing (like just a cap), but 500 square inches of unbroken color above the waist is bordering on ridicules.

Pretending that a big blob of a solid color (other than earth tones, to an extent) is invisible to big-game animals is also pretty foolish to anyone who actually knows how a mammal's eyes work.

 

[375Fox]

Welcome to my world! Lol. Then there are the guys telling me that they want to shoot at a bull elk at 200 yards with open sights on a muzzleloader!

To think that last week on this website I also had someone debating me when I said I don’t allow clients to take initial shots over 200 yards at dangerous game!

From your perspective has long range hunting stabilized or is there more interest and more push to shoot further from hunters each year?

 

[Safari Dave]

IME, long range attempts are continuing to increase.

It seems to be all the rage right now.

YouTube "experts" posting stupid long shots with stupid pitiful rifles.

 

[Safari Dave]

"I'll do everything for you"

You just pull the trigger.

Dead animal.


No actual hunting experience needed or required...


Pretty disgusting, IMO.

 

[BryceM]

Speaking for myself, I'd be happy to see a rule that required a tag to be cut if a drop of blood was spilled. In exchange, I'd like to see a rule change so that anyone could assist in bringing a wounded animal to bag. Try that trick here in Idaho and watch the ticket book come flying out.

 

[roklok]

Speaking for myself, I'd be happy to see a rule that required a tag to be cut if a drop of blood was spilled. In exchange, I'd like to see a rule change so that anyone could assist in bringing a wounded animal to bag. Try that trick here in Idaho and watch the ticket book come flying out.

My first elk hunt I experienced this, and a prime example of something that would be ethical, but illegal. I was on my first hunting trip "out west", having never hunted outside of my home state of Pennsylvania. This was 2003 I think, and I was hunting elk out of a backcountry elk camp on horseback in Montana. I had a bull tag. Third or fourth day of the hunt, my guide and I watched a string of cows come out of some timber below us. Further down the ridge a rifle cracked, and we saw the lead cow was hit, but hit too low, dragging a front leg. The string of elk came our direction, passing within 300 yards, with the cow now bringing up the rear well behind the rest of the group. I wanted badly to put her down, but was told by my guide that was illegal as I did not possess a cow tag. The hunters who shot at her were unsuccessful in locating her and finishing her off. The ethical thing to do would have been to kill her and put her out of her misery, but illegal.