Rhodesia

[steve white]

Remembering the Forgotten Genocide of the Herero and Nama - JFCS Holocaust Center

The genocide of the Herero and Nama people has been called “The 1st genocide of the 20th century.”

holocaustcenter.jfcs.org

Except that once again you chose European colonialism for your argument. What, no discussion of Arabic slave trading across Africa for 700 years before any foreign slaving of west Africa? And they killed 9 out of ten taken by the time the totally eunuched cargo made it to the Middle East. Anyone else insist on castration? No mention of the brutal change in warfare and conquest by Shaka Zulu, leaving hundred thousands dead in its wake, and Matabele fleeing into/conquering Zimbabwean Shona? What about the black on black genocide in Rwanda, over ethnic issues dating back hundreds of years? That one alone completely dwarfs what happened to the Herero. What of Islamic atrocities today in Nigeria, Burkina Faso and elsewhere?

One thing you will NEVER FIND in all of Africa? Any guilt whatsoever for whatever Africans have historically done to fellow man, or fellow Africans, never! But they exploit civilized feelings of guilt for plunder. Sorry, not buying it whole cloth.

 

[RLD]

Yes totalitarianism, particular when yoked to the necks of serfdom, exhibits cultural barriers to enlightened development not dissimilar to those face by tribal communities. But that is actually the point I am trying to make. These cultures are not failing to develop because of the legacy of Imperial or apartheid institutions, but because of the cultural gaps that make such development almost impossible.

I don't think it is that black and white. I think both pre-existing cultural differences and the colonial legacy are making development very difficult in subsaharan Africa.

And you could add in the problem of being a place to hold proxy wars and the efforts of world powers trying to control their mineral and other resources as part of the problem. At different times Savimbi was backed by the French, the U.S., China and Russia!

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Rhodesia was not perfect, it was a White minority ruled nation that was a product of European colonialism. But, it was prosperous, had been in place for many generations and it lifted up the lives of all its citizens. Rhodesia had integrated its schools and military and was in the process of transition to a true democratic majority rule. Agreements were in place for this with Henry Kissinger and the Ford Admin in the mid 1970's. And as others said, Rhodesia was the most modern, and developed nation in Africa until it was destroyed by communism. How?

Communist insurgents backed by Russia and China took steps to destabilize the Rhodesian government and were guilty of murdering white farmers in the countryside and committing other terrorist acts. Instead of assisting the Rhodesian government, the USA and UK abandoned them.

Queen Elizebeth was snubbed by Rhodesia when they declared their independence from the British Empire. She held onto a grudge for that reason. Jimmy Carter and his liberal Sec of State Andrew Young worked with Margarett Thatcher to stab the Rhodesians in the back. They backed out of the agreement and supported a total embargo by the UN of the Rhodesian economy including arms, and military aid. Only the Czechs and South Africans would help but this was too little to stim the tide of insurgents from Moz and Zambia backed by the Chinese and the Russians. It took years before Ian Smith was forced to throw in the towel. While not perfect the communist rule that replace the Rhodesian government was a disaster.

When Robert Mugabe was "Elected" President, he we president for life, because no free fair elections were ever held again during his rule. The country remains frozen in time in some ways with infrastructure now being over 50yrs old and starting to crumble. An old saying comes to mind that many of us should heed. "You can vote your way into socialism but you must shoot your way out of it." Today it is modernizing but where would it be today had a democratic republic been maintained instead of being wiped out.

Progressives are only socialist in sheep's clothing. They slowly, progressively change their nation by uncontrolled immigration, dependence of the lower class on social programs, and indoctrination of each successive generation with more liberal policy thinking thru control of the education system. Younger voters are naturally more liberal as they lack the life experience to have matured into conservatives. Many do grow up eventually but others never seem to wake up. I know and am friends with former Rhodesians as well as citizens of Zimbabwe who have left to find a better life free of poverty.

I just saw a meme today that said: "The Mouse Trap works because the mouse is not smart enough to ask why the cheese is Free" -- There is no free lunch or free government benefit. We all pay for it one way or another. Communism sounds great until you run out of other people's money.

​

 

[1911Fan]

 

[sgt_zim]

Ok I lied I'm diving back in lol.

The issue with poor governance in some African countries isn't race, it's corruption. There are numerous poorly-run kleptocracies that are run by pale skinned people. Belarus, Uzbekistan, Chechnya and the list goes on. In this case the people with power are black, but to turn this correlation into causation well that's what we call racism.

On a scale that's below the national level, it's interesting to consider the CAMPFIRE program. First of all, it's an enormously successful government conservation program that was put into place by a Black-run government. Admittedly, Mugabe before he went off the rails. Second it's administered by local black leaders. It benefits the wildlife, lots of people on this website and local communities. And, again, it was put into place by black people and is run by black people.

While true, what this overlooks is that corruption is the norm in sub-Sahara Africa. I'm actually not aware of any exceptions to this. Allegiances there are narrow, small: family and the local tribe, in that order.

Europe is certainly tribal, but it was never THAT tribal. Today's western "tribes" are Westphalian nation states. And push come to shove, a global war would see the US, Canada, UK, NZ, and Oz all band together as a single tribe again, giving each other shit during the lulls, but fighting and dying together as brothers nonetheless.

Parts of the Balkans and eastern Europe are notable because they are exceptions.

An anecdote, to be certain. My best friend and I hunted Limpopo last year, his tracker was a black Zimbabwean. I can't even begin to describe his hatred for black people: "lazy, stupid, and never think about tomorrow" were his words. An enterprising young man with strong skills as a mechanic, carpenter, and with an arc welder. It's a pity he'll likely never be able to immigrate to the west. He'd likely be quite a boon to a mining company or farm operating under South Africa's 51% rule, but he's from the wrong tribe.

 

[Flbt]

You are right, two wrongs DON'T make a right. I have a Yaqui Indian wife, and some Native American relatives, so I hear you! But how to put all the toys back in the box? It is as impossible as separating Spanish and Indian blood in a latino.

We got a small bit of native creek in our family.
Some of the younger generations was talking to. The generation before me.
They looked at the kids and went we like a/c electricity, medication and cars. We are glad the ancestors got pulled out of the Stone Age.

Again to be fair about there statements there is just a little of n/I blood on the family and we. We’re never rased as native.

 

[Bill Thom]

In this political environment I’m calling a bit of attention to some history… some , I’m sure are well versed on the subject and some I suppose are not even aware. I post this link as ones excerpt from the “bush war”.

Rhodesia in Brief - Window on Rhodesia

A short overview about Rhodesia.

www.rhodesia.me.uk

I’d like to hear more accounts from those who were there/familiar with this period.

If you are a reader try "Scribbling the cat" by Alexandra Fuller . There are a number of books which cover the Selous scouts and other aspects but I like the personal perspective this brings. A good read and very powerful stuff

 

[Flbt]

It is what I find so ridiculous about the "reparations" grift. Take the UK for instance. Where lies the original sin to be sued by the unfortunate oppressed? After all, following the Younger Dryas the original inhabitants were hunter gatherers from what is today continental Europe. We'll characterize them as the first victims. Next came the farming cultures from Southwestern Europe between 4000 and 2000 BC which thoroughly mixed the gene pool. Therefore some victimized Britain should sue Spain. But wait, these agriculturists were then subsumed by the Beaker Culture arriving from modern day Germany and the Netherlands around 2000 BC. OK, then let's sue the Dutch and the Germans. Except, they were in turn largely overrun by the Celtic people. I guess that legal document should be addressed to France. Except both the Celts and much of the remnant populations (excluding parts of Whales and Scotland) were conquered and colonized by Rome beginning in 55BC and lasting over 450 years until 410AD. Well, that is pretty clear, sue Italy! Except, the Roman withdrawal was in the face of Saxon and soon thereafter, Norse invasions. This is getting complicated. The final conquest was by the Norman French beginning in 1066. Perhaps the surviving aggrieved Pict should send their complaint to Paris after all?

So you mean everything falls back to
The strong take what they want?
They get weak and get taken themselves?
Hummmm
Who would have thought that looking at human history?

 

[LivingTheDream]

Wonderful people who have been through things the fragile millennials in this country can not imagine.

Yes and what generation fought the war on terror in Afghanistan and Iraq?

 

[Sideshow]

Might I add that when they contacted Robert Mugabe to let him know that the deal was done and he had won. He’s was actually getting ready to surrender. They had destroyed so much of his “army” that he was ready to throw in the towel.
History sometimes the wins look huge but the margins are so so small.

 

[Red Leg]

Yes and what generation fought the war on terror in Afghanistan and Iraq?

What percentage of our 350 million participated in the GWOT compared our WWII generation or the young Rhodesians who fought the Bush War?

During the nearly four years of WWII, 12% of the US population and over 30% of military age men served in uniform. During the total 20 years of the GWOT between 1 and 2% served. Virtually all white military age men served in the Rhodesian armed forces at some point during the Bush War.

I think most would agree that the average millennial in this country has had a relatively different life experience.

 

[steve white]

View attachment 733865

Well put.

 

[Datchew]

Rhodesia was not perfect, it was a White minority ruled nation that was a product of European colonialism. But, it was prosperous, had been in place for many generations and it lifted up the lives of all its citizens. Rhodesia had integrated its schools and military and was in the process of transition to a true democratic majority rule. Agreements were in place for this with Henry Kissinger and the Ford Admin in the mid 1970's. And as others said, Rhodesia was the most modern, and developed nation in Africa until it was destroyed by communism. How?

Communist insurgents backed by Russia and China took steps to destabilize the Rhodesian government and were guilty of murdering white farmers in the countryside and committing other terrorist acts. Instead of assisting the Rhodesian government, the USA and UK abandoned them.

Queen Elizebeth was snubbed by Rhodesia when they declared their independence from the British Empire. She held onto a grudge for that reason. Jimmy Carter and his liberal Sec of State Andrew Young worked with Margarett Thatcher to stab the Rhodesians in the back. They backed out of the agreement and supported a total embargo by the UN of the Rhodesian economy including arms, and military aid. Only the Czechs and South Africans would help but this was too little to stim the tide of insurgents from Moz and Zambia backed by the Chinese and the Russians. It took years before Ian Smith was forced to throw in the towel. While not perfect the communist rule that replace the Rhodesian government was a disaster.

When Robert Mugabe was "Elected" President, he we president for life, because no free fair elections were ever held again during his rule. The country remains frozen in time in some ways with infrastructure now being over 50yrs old and starting to crumble. An old saying comes to mind that many of us should heed. "You can vote your way into socialism but you must shoot your way out of it." Today it is modernizing but where would it be today had a democratic republic been maintained instead of being wiped out.

Progressives are only socialist in sheep's clothing. They slowly, progressively change their nation by uncontrolled immigration, dependence of the lower class on social programs, and indoctrination of each successive generation with more liberal policy thinking thru control of the education system. Younger voters are naturally more liberal as they lack the life experience to have matured into conservatives. Many do grow up eventually but others never seem to wake up. I know and am friends with former Rhodesians as well as citizens of Zimbabwe who have left to find a better life free of poverty.

I just saw a meme today that said: "The Mouse Trap works because the mouse is not smart enough to ask why the cheese is Free" -- There is no free lunch or free government benefit. We all pay for it one way or another. Communism sounds great until you run out of other people's money.

​

Bravo

 

[gbflyer]

What percentage of our 350 million participated in the GWOT compared our WWII generation or the young Rhodesians who fought the Bush War?

During the nearly four years of WWII, 12% of the US population and over 30% of military age men served in uniform. During the total 20 years of the GWOT between 1 and 2% served. Virtually all white military age men served in the Rhodesian armed forces at some point during the Bush War.

I think most would agree that the average millennial in this country has had a relatively different life experience.

I could be missing your point since you are a military guy.

I don’t know how one such as myself having never served would compare percentage of participation in the GWOT to WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Bush War, etc. since there was no draft for it. Also a lot of them had to go back for multiple deployments which I don’t think happened at least for the US efforts. My cousin was in the sand box 7-8 different times from Desert Storm to Iraq/Afganistan as a soldier then contractor.

 

[LivingTheDream]

What percentage of our 350 million participated in the GWOT compared our WWII generation or the young Rhodesians who fought the Bush War?

During the nearly four years of WWII, 12% of the US population and over 30% of military age men served in uniform. During the total 20 years of the GWOT between 1 and 2% served. Virtually all white military age men served in the Rhodesian armed forces at some point during the Bush War.

I think most would agree that the average millennial in this country has had a relatively different life experience.

I would say most boomers, gen x, millenials, and gen z had an entirely different experience then what was compared to WWII and the Rhodesian Bush wars. Not sure specifically why you picked millennials.

 

[rwp315]

I was able to read a Reid-Daly book (I don't recall if it was the one named above). I'm certain I read it on the Everand site (a book reading subscription site).
Another one to check out:
Shadows of a Forgotten Past: To the Edge with the Rhodesion SAS and Selous Scouts
by Paul French.

I remember as a young kid looking through the Soldier of Fortune magazines at the store, (and buying them whenever Mom wasn't paying attention and I had the money) and seeing the recruitment adds for the Rhodesian army. "Be a Man Among Men" if I recall.
Quite inspiring to a young whippersnapper like I was then. Having read about and watched documentaries about Rhodesia, it was quite the place and a very hardy, honorable people who built a formidable fighting force, but alas, when all supplies are cut off a unit cannot sustain itself.

A sad end to an elevated society all because of the whims of world politicians who think they know right.

It just hit me....had to look at the interwebs. It was Selous Scouts - Top Secret War by Reid Daly

That poster had the same effect on me.

 

[RedTag]

He says it all in less than one minute

 

[275r7x57]

 

[275r7x57]

What are good movie recommendations on this subject?

 

[Scott CWO]

I could be missing your point since you are a military guy.

I don’t know how one such as myself having never served would compare percentage of participation in the GWOT to WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Bush War, etc. since there was no draft for it. Also a lot of them had to go back for multiple deployments which I don’t think happened at least for the US efforts. My cousin was in the sand box 7-8 different times from Desert Storm to Iraq/Afganistan as a soldier then contractor.

The point is that not nearly as many people had skin in the game during the GWOT compared to WWII, etc… This can make for a difference in perspective.