michael458
AH fanatic
Peachy Tom......... Good to hear of you. Yes I saw recently you had a 16 inch 458 Winchester done....Nice.... I would like to get my hands on one of those sometime to run some tests.......
World's most popular community & resource for hunting in Africa since 2007
Rechambering Model 70 Safari Express in .458 Win Mag to .458 Lott
- Thread starter hammz
- Start date
AZDAVE
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@michael458 I just read through this post, thank you for also putting up data on the lehigh bullets, I shot some in the 458B&M you made me before Chris talked me out of it
I have been loading them in my 450Marlin bolt gun and they are shooting well along with the CEB solids. Thanks for taking the time to share your experience and data with all of us here on AH!
I have been loading them in my 450Marlin bolt gun and they are shooting well along with the CEB solids. Thanks for taking the time to share your experience and data with all of us here on AH!
michael458
AH fanatic
No worries....... No thanks needed, my pleasure........... I am very excited about the potential the Lehigh Extremes present. I just finished a post on BadBoy Melvins thread, some of it included the Lehighs.@michael458 I just read through this post, thank you for also putting up data on the lehigh bullets, I shot some in the 458B&M you made me before Chris talked me out of it
The Lehighs origins go back to 2007. JD and I were working on some things for the .500s at that point and JD had this Fluid Moving bullet that he wanted me to try out. At the time, it was exactly a "Limited Penetration Solid" very similar to the North Fork CPS bullets, except it did indeed transfer more trauma to tissue because of the fluid moving action that occurs with it. This bullet was no where close as radical as todays Lehighs, but it was a beginning..........
Later in 2007 I took it and used it on buffalo in Zimbabwe with great success............
Today's Lehigh Extremes are far more radical, and in my opinion better at what they were designed to do, sling fluid, increased surface area, and inflicting trauma, and more than adequate penetration for buffalo.......
I would most certainly put these bullets in the new high end of Bullet Tech available, and for your 450 Marlin and others 45/70s, they are able to enhance the cartridges immensely in my opinion. If I were still hunting today, I would have to try them on buffalo, even if shooting higher capacity cartridges. These bullets are velocity hogs, the more velocity, the more trauma........ Penetration is great for their mission.
I am a believer in these as well........ I have loaded ammo on the shelf in various different cartridges. These bullets also have a home in all my 9mm and 45 ACP Handguns for defense as well.......
Here in 458 B&M along with the 260 Copper Raptors.........
45/70........
458 Super Short.....
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Can't beat a brno/cz
Riflecrank
AH fanatic
Old thread back to life.
Many friends and acquaintances here on this thread, sadly one of the more heroic has passed on,
fondly remembered, R.I.P.
Great forum since it hosts pics directly.
I might get bored and start posting some .458 WIN MAG rifle and ammo pics here instead of elsewhere.
I never long-throated a SAAMI .458 WIN MAG since it is perfect as is.
A SAAMI .458 Lott can certainly stand some improvement of the throat, however.
And how about this funny: Lengthen a cartridge case by 0.3" and then shoe-horn it into a rifle with magazine that is only 0.2" longer. Hahahah.
The .458 Lott-Tight is for Lottite cult members who ironically think they are the opposite of Luddites.
I keep one SAAMI .458 Lott on hand just so my thirteen .458 WIN MAGs can laugh at it.
OK, I won't post that picture here again.
Many friends and acquaintances here on this thread, sadly one of the more heroic has passed on,
fondly remembered, R.I.P.
Great forum since it hosts pics directly.
I might get bored and start posting some .458 WIN MAG rifle and ammo pics here instead of elsewhere.
I never long-throated a SAAMI .458 WIN MAG since it is perfect as is.
A SAAMI .458 Lott can certainly stand some improvement of the throat, however.
And how about this funny: Lengthen a cartridge case by 0.3" and then shoe-horn it into a rifle with magazine that is only 0.2" longer. Hahahah.
The .458 Lott-Tight is for Lottite cult members who ironically think they are the opposite of Luddites.
I keep one SAAMI .458 Lott on hand just so my thirteen .458 WIN MAGs can laugh at it.
OK, I won't post that picture here again.
Riflecrank
AH fanatic
It is a sin to re-chamber a perfectly good Winchester M70 SAAMI .458 WIN MAG to SAAMI .458 Lott.
I did that once but I have repented.
It is much better, if you just cannot contain the urge for a .458 Lott, to re-bore or re-barrel a .375 H&H or .416 RemMag.
Even better still is to have it chambered for SAAMI .458 WIN MAG on the longer action, and try that before going ahead and violating the rifle with a SAAMI .458 Lott reamer,
that way you get a .458 Lott+ with a longer throat.
For the unrepentant sinners who would transition a Winchester M70 Classic action from standard length to H&H length, here is the one little part you need to do it:
The M70 Classic bolt-stop/ejector pictured above can also be arrived at by filing and stoning your original, longer part to the shape above. Alas, I once did that filing and stoning and it worked great.
Never again.
If you have the newer FN-made M70, you will need a different shape with a different hole location on the bolt-stop/ejector.
Also the old Connecticut Classic M70 and the South Carolina FN M70 have different magazine boxes.
You need to remove the block at the back of the sheetmetal box on both of those makes,
and get the proper follower and magazine spring.
Easier to re-barrel or re-bore a .375 H&H or .416 RemMag.
I did that once but I have repented.
It is much better, if you just cannot contain the urge for a .458 Lott, to re-bore or re-barrel a .375 H&H or .416 RemMag.
Even better still is to have it chambered for SAAMI .458 WIN MAG on the longer action, and try that before going ahead and violating the rifle with a SAAMI .458 Lott reamer,
that way you get a .458 Lott+ with a longer throat.
For the unrepentant sinners who would transition a Winchester M70 Classic action from standard length to H&H length, here is the one little part you need to do it:
The M70 Classic bolt-stop/ejector pictured above can also be arrived at by filing and stoning your original, longer part to the shape above. Alas, I once did that filing and stoning and it worked great.
Never again.
If you have the newer FN-made M70, you will need a different shape with a different hole location on the bolt-stop/ejector.
Also the old Connecticut Classic M70 and the South Carolina FN M70 have different magazine boxes.
You need to remove the block at the back of the sheetmetal box on both of those makes,
and get the proper follower and magazine spring.
Easier to re-barrel or re-bore a .375 H&H or .416 RemMag.
Riflecrank
AH fanatic
Here is a 2012-year FN M70 .375 H&H Alaskan rifle
compared to a 2011-year FN M70 .458 WIN MAG:
If you hand load, all of the parts switcheroos are moot.
compared to a 2011-year FN M70 .458 WIN MAG:
If you hand load, all of the parts switcheroos are moot.
PaulT
AH elite
Hmmmmm.
Can't remember what the rest of your post was about Ron,
but I'd love to get my hand on some of those cookies
Can't remember what the rest of your post was about Ron,
but I'd love to get my hand on some of those cookies
Riflecrank
AH fanatic
Doing good has no end.
All .458 WIN MAGs matter.
If I can save one more from being reamed out to .458 Lott,
that's good.
It is also good to build a .458 WIN MAG on an action with 3.6" or 3.8" mag box.
Re-bore a .375 H&H to .458 WIN MAG.
Re-barrel a .416 RemMag to .458 WIN MAG.
I am blessed with M70 Classic rifles made each way.
If you are stuck with a .458 Lott-Tight (SAAMI .458 Lott),
then run a SAAMI .458 WIN MAG reamer into it to correct the handicap.
The crippled will be healed.
That is another way to do good.
Close-ups of the above three are shown below:
If there was any difference between the 2011-2012 USA-assembled versus the 2014 Portuguese-assembled SC/FN M70 Alaskan .375 H&Hs,
the Portuguese wood was better finished.
Below are two SC/FN M70 short mags, both with same 3.4" blocked magazine box lengths and different rear bridge lengths,
causing a long ejection port on the .458 WIN MAG, same as on the .375 H&H with 3.6" mag box,
and a shorter ejection port on the .338 WIN MAG:
Fear not the shorter ejection port on the .338 WIN MAG rifle (above) for a conversion to Long-Box .458 WIN MAG.
It will eject a 3.6" COL unfired cartridge just fine.
Not hard to load it either, backing the cartridges into the magazine with belted end angled down.
Just shorten the bolt-stop/ejector and unblock the rear of the magazine box.
Good to go.
Very interesting for re-barreling to SAAMI .458 WIN MAG too, even with 3.4" mag box.
Finally a 1990s M70 Classic .416 RemMag re-barreled to .458 WIN MAG with 3.6" Mag Box as OEM:
The short extractors and 3-screw/two-piece bottom metal were a feature of the M70 Classics.
The newer SC/FN M70s have longer extractors and 2-screw/one-piece bottom metal.
I just wish they had left the triggers as original on the Classics and Pre-'64s.
All .458 WIN MAGs matter.
If I can save one more from being reamed out to .458 Lott,
that's good.
It is also good to build a .458 WIN MAG on an action with 3.6" or 3.8" mag box.
Re-bore a .375 H&H to .458 WIN MAG.
Re-barrel a .416 RemMag to .458 WIN MAG.
I am blessed with M70 Classic rifles made each way.
If you are stuck with a .458 Lott-Tight (SAAMI .458 Lott),
then run a SAAMI .458 WIN MAG reamer into it to correct the handicap.
The crippled will be healed.
That is another way to do good.
Close-ups of the above three are shown below:
If there was any difference between the 2011-2012 USA-assembled versus the 2014 Portuguese-assembled SC/FN M70 Alaskan .375 H&Hs,
the Portuguese wood was better finished.
Below are two SC/FN M70 short mags, both with same 3.4" blocked magazine box lengths and different rear bridge lengths,
causing a long ejection port on the .458 WIN MAG, same as on the .375 H&H with 3.6" mag box,
and a shorter ejection port on the .338 WIN MAG:
Fear not the shorter ejection port on the .338 WIN MAG rifle (above) for a conversion to Long-Box .458 WIN MAG.
It will eject a 3.6" COL unfired cartridge just fine.
Not hard to load it either, backing the cartridges into the magazine with belted end angled down.
Just shorten the bolt-stop/ejector and unblock the rear of the magazine box.
Good to go.
Very interesting for re-barreling to SAAMI .458 WIN MAG too, even with 3.4" mag box.
Finally a 1990s M70 Classic .416 RemMag re-barreled to .458 WIN MAG with 3.6" Mag Box as OEM:
The short extractors and 3-screw/two-piece bottom metal were a feature of the M70 Classics.
The newer SC/FN M70s have longer extractors and 2-screw/one-piece bottom metal.
I just wish they had left the triggers as original on the Classics and Pre-'64s.
Riflecrank
AH fanatic
23" slender barrel and B&C stock on this Long-Boxed .458 WIN MAG that used to be a .416 Rem Mag and now is a more powerful rifle, 7# 10 oz. when naked and 9# 12 oz. when field-readiest.
I did that, and proud of it.
The M70 Classic .375 H&H re-bored to .458 WIN MAG was built by a friend, and I hornswoggled him out of it. He used a stainless factory .375 H&H barrel and a blued .375 H&H action, M70 Classic parts,
custom walnut stock, Re-boring by JES ...
... I call her Hammerella.
He killed cape buffalo at 30 yards and all manner of plains game out to 200 yards with that rifle and the 404-gr Shock Hammer bullet at +2500 fps MV (same bullet now called "Stone Hammer").
That soft point passed through both shoulders of the big buffalo bull, exited and he dropped dead.
I took same rifle to game farm in Tennessee this May and brought home 1000 pounds of pork and water buffalo meat. I eat like a king.
Or stated differently, .458 WIN MAGA handloads are not safe in a SAAMI .458 Lott.
I did that, and proud of it.
The M70 Classic .375 H&H re-bored to .458 WIN MAG was built by a friend, and I hornswoggled him out of it. He used a stainless factory .375 H&H barrel and a blued .375 H&H action, M70 Classic parts,
custom walnut stock, Re-boring by JES ...
... I call her Hammerella.
He killed cape buffalo at 30 yards and all manner of plains game out to 200 yards with that rifle and the 404-gr Shock Hammer bullet at +2500 fps MV (same bullet now called "Stone Hammer").
That soft point passed through both shoulders of the big buffalo bull, exited and he dropped dead.
I took same rifle to game farm in Tennessee this May and brought home 1000 pounds of pork and water buffalo meat. I eat like a king.
Or stated differently, .458 WIN MAGA handloads are not safe in a SAAMI .458 Lott.
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Riflecrank
AH fanatic
That story resembles the Jack Lott incident of 1959 that made him re-invent the .450 Watts Magnum of 1949 and call it the .458 Lott of 1971.
Jack continued to hunt with multiple .458 WIN MAG rifles from 1959 gut-shooting to 1971 Jackoff of the .450 Watts Magnum.
Jack used a .450 Watts reamer (for 2.850" brass length) with non-cutting belt to re-chamber a SAAMI .458 WIN MAG.
That was the ".458 Lott Like Jack Built."
Thank A-Square for the SAAMI .458 Lott-Tight that is worshipped by the Lottites.
Riflecrank
AH fanatic
Riflecrank
AH fanatic
My friend 50Gunner is the guy who got hornswoggled out of Hammerella.
Here he is in his early days of safari with the likes of a 2-bore singles and 4-bore doubles:
OK, that is really Sir Samuel Baker, but it is a close enough likeness to 50Gunner who is
certainly of equal or greater physical prowess, and probably has better stories to tell.
Well, 50Gunner, subsequent to the Hammerella build,
has built another rifle that I call "Baby" as did Sir Samuel Baker call his 2-bore.
Yep, 400-gr CEB Safari Solids and 404-gr Stone Hammers at 2600 fps MV from a 26"-barreled .458 WIN MAG weighing less than 10 pounds (scoped with NightForce LPVO) would have been a lot more effective and handier on horseback than the original Baby.
That is Baby on 50Gunner's knee. Proud Papa.
Here he is in his early days of safari with the likes of a 2-bore singles and 4-bore doubles:
OK, that is really Sir Samuel Baker, but it is a close enough likeness to 50Gunner who is
certainly of equal or greater physical prowess, and probably has better stories to tell.
Well, 50Gunner, subsequent to the Hammerella build,
has built another rifle that I call "Baby" as did Sir Samuel Baker call his 2-bore.
Yep, 400-gr CEB Safari Solids and 404-gr Stone Hammers at 2600 fps MV from a 26"-barreled .458 WIN MAG weighing less than 10 pounds (scoped with NightForce LPVO) would have been a lot more effective and handier on horseback than the original Baby.
That is Baby on 50Gunner's knee. Proud Papa.
Riflecrank
AH fanatic
50Gunner's .458 WIN MAGA handloads confirm mine.
Let the Lottites weep.
BTW, there has been a maneating blackbear convention convened in Arkansas recently.
No telling how long it will continue, or whether it will be a regularly scheduled event.
50Gunner lives closer to Arkansas than I do.
I suggest he should go on PAC Patrol during bear season in Arkansas.
There are many special features on 50Gunner's Baby.
Even the less fortunate possessors of .458 Lott Winchester M70 rifles would do well to note how they could get their rifles up to Baby performance standards.
Let the Lottites weep.
BTW, there has been a maneating blackbear convention convened in Arkansas recently.
No telling how long it will continue, or whether it will be a regularly scheduled event.
50Gunner lives closer to Arkansas than I do.
I suggest he should go on PAC Patrol during bear season in Arkansas.
There are many special features on 50Gunner's Baby.
Even the less fortunate possessors of .458 Lott Winchester M70 rifles would do well to note how they could get their rifles up to Baby performance standards.
Riflecrank
AH fanatic
Any .458 WIN MAG rifle with proper loads will do any job needing doing.
Much more versatile, for varmints, plains game, lion, buffalo, elephant or bowhead whaling with the Inupiat of Alaska.
The .458 WIN MAG is easier on the shoulder than a .458 Lott for any equal level of ballistics delivered.
If one really enjoys recoil, the SAAMI .458 WIN MAG rifle can be loaded with .458 WIN MAGA handloads to kick harder than a SAAMI .458 Lott rifle.
Riflecrank
AH fanatic
50Gunner is aka Sir Jerry, Knight of the Square Table.
He hunts with a 500/450 NE H&H Royal DR, same vintage as Teddy Roosevelt's Big Stick.
When he wants something more powerful and quicker for four shots and better for long range plains game: .458 WIN MAG
He hunts with a 500/450 NE H&H Royal DR, same vintage as Teddy Roosevelt's Big Stick.
When he wants something more powerful and quicker for four shots and better for long range plains game: .458 WIN MAG
Riflecrank
AH fanatic
OK, it is settled.
Re-chambering a SAAMI Winchester M70 .458 WIN MAG to SAAMI .458 Lott is a waste in many ways.
If you do it, just like if O.J. did it, before he went on that white Ford Bronco ride,
you need to get it properly re-thoated to mitigate the damage and allow it to equal the .458 WIN MAG.
The usual, short-throated 470 Capstick is another way to beat the SAAMI .458 Lott.
That will mean a re-barrel or re-bore to only equal the .458 WIN MAGA handloadings of the .458 WIN MAG.
If going to that much trouble, might as well go ahead and do a .495 A-Square on your Winchester M70.
If I did that, I would scale up the throat to SAAMI .458 WIN MAG conformation,
and call it the .510 WIN MAG.
It would serve A-Square right for appropriating the wildcats of John Riley Buhmiller and James A. Watts.
".510 WIN MAG" has a nice ring to it.
Re-chambering a SAAMI Winchester M70 .458 WIN MAG to SAAMI .458 Lott is a waste in many ways.
If you do it, just like if O.J. did it, before he went on that white Ford Bronco ride,
you need to get it properly re-thoated to mitigate the damage and allow it to equal the .458 WIN MAG.
The usual, short-throated 470 Capstick is another way to beat the SAAMI .458 Lott.
That will mean a re-barrel or re-bore to only equal the .458 WIN MAGA handloadings of the .458 WIN MAG.
If going to that much trouble, might as well go ahead and do a .495 A-Square on your Winchester M70.
If I did that, I would scale up the throat to SAAMI .458 WIN MAG conformation,
and call it the .510 WIN MAG.
It would serve A-Square right for appropriating the wildcats of John Riley Buhmiller and James A. Watts.
".510 WIN MAG" has a nice ring to it.
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Riflecrank
AH fanatic
Best way to beat a .458 WIN MAG on a Winchester M70, for those who think best is not enough:
I made up three dummy .510 WIN MAG rounds and 3+1 is an easy fit, feeds, ejects and retains well,
except for the part about fitting a .510-caliber bullet into a .500-caliber barrel.
Switch barrel ahead: 12.7x68mm Magnum and .510 WIN MAG.
Just because, because the bolt face is too big to turn it into another .458 WIN MAG.
I made up three dummy .510 WIN MAG rounds and 3+1 is an easy fit, feeds, ejects and retains well,
except for the part about fitting a .510-caliber bullet into a .500-caliber barrel.
Switch barrel ahead: 12.7x68mm Magnum and .510 WIN MAG.
Just because, because the bolt face is too big to turn it into another .458 WIN MAG.
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Hagler.450Ex
AH veteran
The .510 WIN MAG has been in my head for days. Then I thought of a .510 WIN MAG 2.5"....if it could do 2050-2150fps with a 570.... 
Never liked long bolt travel, and it could fit standard action.
Never liked long bolt travel, and it could fit standard action.
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Riflecrank
AH fanatic
The .510 WIN MAG has been in my head for days. Then I thought of a .510 WIN MAG 2.5"....if it could do 2050-2150fps with a 570....
Never liked long bolt travel, and it could fit standard action.
Hagler.450Ex,
Thanks for the reply. Finally some action here besides me.
.495 A-Square 2.5" WIN MAG Throated:
I have thought of calling that one the .50 WIN MAG (50 WM) or .510 WIN MAG Spotter (510 WMS)
or .510 WIN Short MAG (510 WSM). Heh-heh-heh.
Scaling up the .458 WIN MAG to .510-caliber demands a case length of 2.78", close enough to 2.80" for horseshoes and hand grenades. Need .375 H&H length bolt throw.
I first toyed with the idea of a .470 Capstick 2.5" WIN MAG Throated and calling it the .475 WIN MAG.
But bullet choices are more limited.
.510 caliber and even .500-caliber are more abundant and varied.
A true .500-caliber .500 WIN MAG with 2.5" case length does have its appeal to me,
since Michael 458 has pioneered so many .500-caliber rifle bullets with North Fork and CEB.
And there are lots of .500 S&W handgun bullets to be had too. 500 WSM ? Heh-heh-heh.
The .458 WIN MAG-style throating would also be most excellent for .512" to .513" diameter cast bullets for best accuracy.
Yes, 2150 fps with 570-grainer would be possible with either 2.5" or 2.8" case length,
with barrel length as short as 20" is my SWAG.
Even with a 3.4" magazine box length instead of 3.6" or 3.8"
the 2.5" case could be long-COL loaded single-shot style into the chamber to equal the .495 A-Square 2.8" case.
But I chafe at the limited nose projection of the 2.8" case in a 3.6" magazine.
Just like the .458 Lott.
A 2.5" case in a 3.4" magazine is better in that regard.
I just tried my dummy rounds for .510 WIN MAG in my Wildcatters Anonymous Poster Rifle, a four-barrel rifle, only one barrel at a time ...
Slicker than snot, bolt face on that BRNO ZKK 602 was originally opened up from .375 H&H to 460 WBY by Dr. Kevin Jenkins, formerly The Gun Doctor, now the MD pathologist.
Maybe I should start there with a 3.8" magazine and work my way down to a 3.4" magazine and 2.5" case. If the bolt face was still .375 H&H it would have become another .458 WIN MAG.
TSUNDOKU: Japanese for collecting more books than can be read in a lifetime.
GUNNDOKU ...
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