Rechambering Model 70 Safari Express in .458 Win Mag to .458 Lott

[Wyatt Smith]

@michael458 do you have any 450 grain swift or Barnes tests to compare to the bullets posted above? I am awfully curious.

 

[michael458]

Micheal, have you seen RIP/Riflecrank on 24 hour work with the 458 win? The SAAMI 458 win has a longer throat than the SAAMI 458 lot and by seating the bullet farther out in the case he is getting higher velocities with the win chamber. Of course the 458 win throat for a 458 Lott rechambered from a 458 win could accomplish the same I think.

Hey JWP............. Got your phone message yesterday, sorry I missed you was on the range........

I know RIP well, Ron........... Very familiar with Ron's work and yes, long throat 458 Winchester absolutely has the capability of doing what a 458 Lott can do. Long throat, increased case capacity, simple logic..........I don't do 24 much anymore, even looking in. Ron has been long throating the 458 for years......I think it would be interesting to do some pressure work on that.

Good to see you out there too....... Hope all is good, we will touch base soon. I am back on the range shortly, have a friend in need of something, but its rat bore crap..... will let him do all the work, I just watch and assist..... Not much interest in rat calibers........

 

[michael458]

@michael458 do you have any 450 grain swift or Barnes tests to compare to the bullets posted above? I am awfully curious.

Yes of course. Some of these bullets are the reason I decided 18-20 inches minimum for buffalo in the early days. Why? Because I shot buffalo with them, and I know what they did.

The 550 did not get amount of penetration on the tag, but in the recorded data it was 22 inches.

I never worked with the Barnes in the early days of Big Bore very much at all. This was pre TSX days no bands/grooves. By the time we had TSX, I had moved to more non conventional bullets. I have no doubts at all that good Barnes TSX bullets are superb in the 450 gr weight class, and I suppose would equal the best of the premium conventional, if not surpass them somewhat. One of the later TSX that I am very fond of is the 300 and 350 TSX which I have tested. These are very close for buffalo just under the threshold I would be comfortable with, but would be superb for thin skinned dangerous game in my opinion.

We are blessed with many good bullets today.......... I did not mean to get this carried away with the subject.......

 

[crs]

Though probably not needed, here is/are my two bits:

.458 caliber 450 grain North Fork, Punch, and Alaska Bullet works Kodiak bullets at 2150 fps MV took elephant(frontal brain shots), cape buff(mostly shoot throughs), bison, and plains game shot from 10 pound Miroku/Winchester 1886 TD rifle .

Since this caliber, bullet weight and velocity work so well, why butcher up a fine Model 70 just to shoot a bit faster and recoil harder?

 

[michael458]

Though probably not needed, here is/are my two bits:

.458 caliber 450 grain North Fork, Punch, and Alaska Bullet works Kodiak bullets at 2150 fps MV took elephant(frontal brain shots), cape buff(mostly shoot throughs), bison, and plains game shot from 10 pound Miroku/Winchester 1886 TD rifle .
View attachment 413877
Since this caliber, bullet weight and velocity work so well, why butcher up a fine Model 70 just to shoot a bit faster and recoil harder?

I had a similar rifle, used it on bear once. That curved steel butt plate worried me to death, and mine was just 45/70..........

For the lever guns we use these..........

 

[WAB]

Though probably not needed, here is/are my two bits:

.458 caliber 450 grain North Fork, Punch, and Alaska Bullet works Kodiak bullets at 2150 fps MV took elephant(frontal brain shots), cape buff(mostly shoot throughs), bison, and plains game shot from 10 pound Miroku/Winchester 1886 TD rifle .
View attachment 413877
Since this caliber, bullet weight and velocity work so well, why butcher up a fine Model 70 just to shoot a bit faster and recoil harder?

M70 in .458 Lott. Metal work by Alaska Arms. Stock by Canyon Creek. Shoots sub moa w federal tbbc at 2300 fps. Doesn’t appear to have suffered too much from the ‘butchering’!

 

[Wyatt Smith]

Thanks! You have me convinced!

 

[TOBY458]

View attachment 413887

M70 in .458 Lott. Metal work by Alaska Arms. Stock by Canyon Creek. Shoots sub moa w federal tbbc at 2300 fps. Doesn’t appear to have suffered too much from the ‘butchering’!

Beautiful rifle! And excellent bull!
PS....if you had left it as a 458WM, the picture and results would've been exactly the same..... Lol!

 

[WAB]

Beautiful rifle! And excellent bull!
PS....if you had left it as a 458WM, the picture and results would've been exactly the same..... Lol!

Totally agree! I did the Lott conversion because the PH’s I hunt with shoot Lott’s. I can always get Lott ammo but .458 WM would be a crap shoot. In factory ammo the Velocity advantage of the Lott is significantly greater than what is represented above, more like 200 fps out of the 22” tube I use.

 

[TOBY458]

Totally agree! I did the Lott conversion because the PH’s I hunt with shoot Lott’s. I can always get Lott ammo but .458 WM would be a crap shoot. In factory ammo the Velocity advantage of the Lott is significantly greater than what is represented above, more like 200 fps out of the 22” tube I use.

Ah I'm just busting your balls a bit. That's a very nice looking rifle! I've read that the 458 WM does indeed lag a bit more in a 22" barrel, but all the ones I've owned have been 24". Either way, I think you're covered!

 

[crs]

Michael48,
That is indeed a beautiful 1886 rifle!
My 1886 45-90 (458 2.4) came just as I wanted it for rough and tumble hunting with some experimental loads. It even did a tumble from a Bakkie in some county north of RSA when a bumpy two track tossed it out onto the ground. The hunter to whom I had loaned my rifle felt so bad about the dents and scratches that he moved the point of the comb back so the peep sight would properly lock in place. A good deal all around!

PS Fortunately, the crescent butt plate does not bruise or scratch when shot with the lower tip tucked into the shooters arm pit. Even from a bench rest.

 

[WAB]

Ah I'm just busting your balls a bit. That's a very nice looking rifle! I've read that the 458 WM does indeed lag a bit more in a 22" barrel, but all the ones I've owned have been 24". Either way, I think you're covered!

I’m sure I deserve it LOL!

 

[michael458]

Michael48,
That is indeed a beautiful 1886 rifle!
My 1886 45-90 (458 2.4)

I do love a 1886. M71s as well. I knew yours was a 45-90 and its a hammer of a good cartridge for a lever gun. I can't think of anything better in .458 in a lever than that.

I have another one silver receiver somewhere in the back of the safe that I kept, but I ended up selling the gun above to a young chap a few years ago. I took the carbine version, shortened it to 18 inches, added NECG barrel band front and rear, basically made a Winchester Guide Gun out of it. Its still 45/70 as well. Shot the hell out of two Bison with it back in 2005.

I turned all my 71s into .500s.........

PS Fortunately, the crescent butt plate does not bruise or scratch when shot with the lower tip tucked into the shooters arm pit. Even from a bench rest.

Damn, I never learned how to keep mine from beating me to pieces, suppose I just used the wrong technique..........I'd rather jump on one of my bigger 500s than to shoot that crescent butt plate... LOL

 

[crs]

Michael458,
Glad to provide a solution for steel crescent butt plates. I shoot with both eyes open and observed that the 1886 recoils up and back down on target without my losing sight of my target. Two benefits - 1. I usually get to see the target animal hit the dirt or 2, I am back on target upon full shot recovery.

Also, not everyone knows that the 45-90 2.4 inch case has 96% as much capacity as the .458 Win Mag. and with modern powders It easily and safely can be loaded well up into .458 Win Mag velocities
( whether shotgun butt or crescent butt).

Plus I also shoot NF 350 grain SS hand loads in my Beretta .45-70 DR. Final sight adjustment due soon before I take that package hog hunting. BTW, Mike Brady suggested they will work very well in my 1886 .45-90 at velocities well above my DR. Another fun challenge coming up!

 

[crs]

Beretta 45-70

 

[hammz]

Michael, it is not boring at all. I always enjoy reading and gaining more knowledge. This is all awesome. I own a Winchester 1886 Deluxe as well in 45-70 so seeing that information was nice as well!

 

[CoElkHunter]

I would like to own a .458 B&M someday. I think it’s performance with the shorter barrels is awesome.

 

[michael458]

Michael458,
Glad to provide a solution for steel crescent butt plates.

Absolutely, thank you Sir.........I still have one crescent on a 1885 in 45/70. Yes, it hurts too... LOL....I will do as recommended..........

Also, not everyone knows that the 45-90 2.4 inch case has 96% as much capacity as the .458 Win Mag. and with modern powders It easily and safely can be loaded well up into .458 Win Mag velocities
( whether shotgun butt or crescent butt).

I have often thought about moving to 45-90, several times in the past, but something always got in the way of that. Either busy with the bolt guns, which took much of my time, or busy with my own 50 B&M Alaskans in the M71s or 1885/Ruger #1.............Instead of making the move to 45-90 I went to .500 caliber with my levers........I think 45-90 a fine cartridge, and you have proven as much. Well done.

Plus I also shoot NF 350 grain SS hand loads in my Beretta .45-70 DR. Final sight adjustment due soon before I take that package hog hunting. BTW, Mike Brady suggested they will work very well in my 1886 .45-90 at velocities well above my DR

Indeed, a very fine bullet. I tested this using my 458 B&M Super Short, 1.65 inch WSM case to .458 caliber, Winchester M70 WSSM actions, 16 inch barrels. It is a superb bullet, and will handle with ease much higher velocity. The North Fork premiums stand apart from other Conventional Premiums. In the Super Short tests I did not exceed 2150 fps velocity, tested down to 1423 fps...........

Another test with the 458 Super Short and the 300 North Fork at 2500 fps............

I would like to own a .458 B&M someday. I think it’s performance with the shorter barrels is awesome.

This is the reason all my 458 Winchesters and 458 Lotts are either retired, and or sold..........I cannot imagine going to the field ever again with those long muskets, one cannot believe how well a 18 inch gun handles in the field until you do it. When doing test work and I carry a 24 inch musket out to the range, I wonder how in the world I carried this ungainly thing in past years. You truly cannot understand until you handle a 24 inch 458 Lott or Winchester, and then the 18 inch 458 B&M. I have NEVER EVER not Once had anyone say they rather go to the field with the longer gun, after having both in hand for comparison.

 

[zephyr]

What all would need to be done to rechamber a Model 70 Safari Express in .458 Win Mag to .458 Lott? Would it just be cutting the chamber to fit the Lott, or would the magazine well need to be opened up as well?

The .416 Rem Mag and .375 H&H both fit in the same action, so I'd think it'd just need the chamber opened up. I'd like to hear from anyone who has had this done, along with some gunsmiths they'd recommend to do the work.

I re-chambered my Safari Express from 458 win to a Lott very simple job for a gun smith
Besides the chamber, the Magazine does have a block that is easily removed and the Ejector must be shortened. Rounds fed perfectly without any modification...

 

[TOBY458]

Absolutely, thank you Sir.........I still have one crescent on a 1885 in 45/70. Yes, it hurts too... LOL....I will do as recommended..........


I have often thought about moving to 45-90, several times in the past, but something always got in the way of that. Either busy with the bolt guns, which took much of my time, or busy with my own 50 B&M Alaskans in the M71s or 1885/Ruger #1.............Instead of making the move to 45-90 I went to .500 caliber with my levers........I think 45-90 a fine cartridge, and you have proven as much. Well done.


Indeed, a very fine bullet. I tested this using my 458 B&M Super Short, 1.65 inch WSM case to .458 caliber, Winchester M70 WSSM actions, 16 inch barrels. It is a superb bullet, and will handle with ease much higher velocity. The North Fork premiums stand apart from other Conventional Premiums. In the Super Short tests I did not exceed 2150 fps velocity, tested down to 1423 fps...........

View attachment 414275View attachment 414276View attachment 414277View attachment 414278View attachment 414279


Another test with the 458 Super Short and the 300 North Fork at 2500 fps............

View attachment 414274



This is the reason all my 458 Winchesters and 458 Lotts are either retired, and or sold..........I cannot imagine going to the field ever again with those long muskets, one cannot believe how well a 18 inch gun handles in the field until you do it. When doing test work and I carry a 24 inch musket out to the range, I wonder how in the world I carried this ungainly thing in past years. You truly cannot understand until you handle a 24 inch 458 Lott or Winchester, and then the 18 inch 458 B&M. I have NEVER EVER not Once had anyone say they rather go to the field with the longer gun, after having both in hand for comparison.

I have noticed quite a few newer Winchester 70 WSM rifles for sale on Gunbroker. How do you feel about the current FN actions being produced?