Politics

[spike.t]

2014 maidan revolution. Overthrowing a government. With the public support of a America and western Europe. Supporting actual fascist and nazi wannabes (i.e Azhav battalion) with weapons and money.

That started the sh*t show. Besides NATO not honoring the agreements made with the Soviet union

Think your looking though rose tinted seriously left wing glasses....

 

[DieJager]

left wing glasses.

LOL if been called a lot of things but never a lefty. If I did not know better I would have thought you were trying to insult me.

 

[Red Leg]

But, I think the aftermath of WWII is totally relevant. And I am not implying that US involvement in either the war or post-war reconstruction was some altruistic crusade. Rather, those actions, taken in US national interests, also represented the collective interests of Western Europe, not just our allies during the war. The reemergence of a strong West and then unified Germany and democratic leaning Central Europe are proof of the wisdom of those decisions.

And with regard to agreements with the Soviet Union with respect to NATO expansion, those agreements were with a now non-existent country. But the new Russia, unbridled from its pseudo-socialist doctrine, is proving just as imperialistic as its predecessor. Imagine a "neutral" Central Europe hosting hundreds of thousands of Russian forces whose line of departure would be the western rather than Eastern Polish border. And this time, those Russian forces would and will be immune to choruses of Western European Socialist Comrades singing "The International" in three part harmony.

Has NATO made mistakes with respect to the deployment of forces? Absolutely. Libya is indeed a perfect example. However, to decry the collective security value the alliance has provided for nearly three quarters of a century as being a tool of purely American interests is also a mistake.

 

[sgt_zim]

I knew someone would bring up WWII and yes Europe is grateful. But I am talking more recent history. Like plunging us in the Iraq war and all wars since. Thank you for Libya etc. Not in our interests.

I thing we are in in agreement that Europe has to up their military. And no I am not anti American. More in like with Rand Paul or is he not an American. Your foreign policy for decades has been shit. But your in good company as ours in Europe is also shit. Read: Globalist.

Seems a fool's errand to attempt to separate WWII from the decades of aid and prosperity we afforded you guys after the war. I mean, that only took about 35-40 years of effort and money on the part of the US so Germany could re-establish itself industrially.

 

[spike.t]

LOL if been called a lot of things but never a lefty. If I did not know better I would have thought you were trying to insult me.

Insult...mmm...no...just how I see your rhetoric to be honest....

 

[Wheels]

@Wheels .... Wow. That nap/teleprompter meme was SOOO on display during his press conference yesterday. And I totally stole that one for my FB page; I think maybe I stole another of yours a while back?

Feel free to take any meme I post. Realize I stole it from someone else. I try to give credit when I know where something comes from. With meme's it is virtually impossible.

 

[Wheels]

 

[DieJager]

Insult...mmm...no...just how I see your rhetoric to be honest....

Mm.. Than I surely have to work on my rhetoric. What in my rhetoric sounded leftist?

If I would guess my opposition against some of the US foreign policy decisions. But to call that a purely leftist stance on mainland Europe is a mistake.

@Red Leg I think we are more in agreement that our disagreement shows. And I know you have a military background so it was not my intention to insult you in anyway.

I simply disagree and do not think the sole blame lies with Putin in this conflict.

 

[Big5]

 

[Red Leg]

Mm.. Than I surely have to work on my rhetoric. What in my rhetoric sounded leftist?

If I would guess my opposition against some of the US foreign policy decisions. But to call that a purely leftist stance on mainland Europe is a mistake.

@Red Leg I think we are more in agreement that our disagreement shows. And I know you have a military background so it was not my intention to insult you in anyway.

I simply disagree and do not think the sole blame lies with Putin in this conflict.

I actually "blame" the Soviet Union for this crisis. The Ukraine is, to some extent like non-existent Kurdistan, the victim of third-party map makers. In the case of the Kurds, they were left out by the British. In the case of the Ukraine, about a third of the Soviet Socialist Republic was geographically localized ethnic Russ. Like the Sudetenland in September of 1938, a geographically isolated minority is a strong pretext for a powerful, ethnically aligned neighbor to take military action.

Unlike the Sudetenland crisis, I hope the Western Alliance has the courage to limit the aggressor to that ethnic reunification. Biden's rambling incoherent press conference of two-weeks ago certainly indicated that the US had made that calculation, and are willing to accede to that limited territorial easement.

Unfortunately, like Germany in 1938, Russia clearly (just listen to Putin's speech) has ambitions beyond ethnic reconciliation in Eastern Ukraine. Also like 1938 there are strong currents in the US wanting nothing to do with Europe's problems, whatever aggressive actions Russia might take. I would assume Putin has that worked into his calculations as well. All the more reason that Europe needs a united policy with regard to Ukraine - one that employs a persuasive stick as well as diplomatic reasoning.

 

[DieJager]

PETER HITCHENS: Why I blame the arrogant West for the Ukraine crisis

We have been utter fools, writes PETER HITCHENS. We have treated Russia with amazing stupidity. Now we pay the price for that. We had the chance to make her an ally, friend and partner.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[CJW]

I've heard a couple of people much smarter than me say that something about Putin has changed recently in terms of his personality and demeanor. The guy holds many bad feelings about the fall of the USSR and I believe he has expressed such before, and he is kind of a ticking time bomb at this point. The guy knows his power and isn't getting any younger so what will he do in his last years running the show to help even the score for mother Russia?

My views on Russia are pretty simplistic. It's a corrupt regime that has been a thorn in many sides and they will always look for a bigger piece of the pie. It's a shame considering it's a country with so many possibilities.

Doesn't Germany get something like 60%of their oil from Russia and only recently started contributing more towards NATO???

 

[CoElkHunter]

I actually "blame" the Soviet Union for this crisis. The Ukraine is, to some extent like non-existent Kurdistan, the victim of third-party map makers. In the case of the Kurds, they were left out by the British. In the case of the Ukraine, about a third of the Soviet Socialist Republic was geographically localized ethnic Russ. Like the Sudetenland in September of 1938, a geographically isolated minority is a strong pretext for a powerful, ethnically aligned neighbor to take military action.

Unlike the Sudetenland crisis, I hope the Western Alliance has the courage to limit the aggressor to that ethnic reunification. Biden's rambling incoherent press conference of two-weeks ago certainly indicated that the US had made that calculation, and are willing to accede to that limited territorial easement.

Unfortunately, like Germany in 1938, Russia clearly (just listen to Putin's speech) has ambitions beyond ethnic reconciliation in Eastern Ukraine. Also like 1938 there are strong currents in the US wanting nothing to do with Europe's problems, whatever aggressive actions Russia might take. I would assume Putin has that worked into his calculations as well. All the more reason that Europe needs a united policy with regard to Ukraine - one that employs a persuasive stick as well as diplomatic reasoning.

I was going to stay out of this "quagmire" of a discussion, but since you mentioned the 1938 Sudetenland, I feel I must contribute MY opinion. When Hitler invaded the Sudetenland, based on a "population" living there of German "speaking" peoples, he expected France and other European countries to "forcefully" object. They did NOTHING, trying to appease Hitler. Hitler later said, if the most powerful army in the world (France) at the time had intervened, his much lesser army at the time would have had to retreat. MAYBE, WW2 never happens at that point or at least much later? Recently, we have seen Putin invade Georgia because why? Many Russian speaking people live there. Next, it was Crimea. Now, it's the Russian "speaking population" of Eastern Ukraine. Make no mistake, Putin has no desire to stop his Czarist conquests at Ukraine. Think of it what you will, but history is repeating itself NOW! Europe doesn't want to repeat the Sudetenland "appeasement" fiasco. No, Putin isn't Hitler by a long shot, but he's definitely using Hitler's playbook.

 

[Red Leg]

PETER HITCHENS: Why I blame the arrogant West for the Ukraine crisis

We have been utter fools, writes PETER HITCHENS. We have treated Russia with amazing stupidity. Now we pay the price for that. We had the chance to make her an ally, friend and partner.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Hichens is a smart guy.

I think he is also a naïve one if he really thinks a Marshall plan for post-Soviet Russia was remotely possible. In some ways that view encapsulates Western arrogance as much as any decisions concerning the future of NATO.

It is particularly naïve had that Western salvation involved a partnership with Yeltsin who was more like a drunken crime lord than the father of a new democracy.

He also conveniently overlooks the aspirations of millions of Eastern Europeans emerging from under the Soviet boot heel. Perhaps he didn't have an opportunity to spend a few weeks in Krakow or Budapest following the collapse to get a personal sense of their fears for the future.

Could the West's relationship with the Russians been managed better over the last 30 years? Obviously yes or we wouldn't be in this situation. But I am not sure consigning the population of Eastern Europe to a Russian dominated neutral netherworld should ever be part of such an appeasement.

 

[CJW]

I was going to stay out of this "quagmire" of a discussion, but since you mentioned the 1938 Sudetenland, I feel I must contribute MY opinion. When Hitler invaded the Sudetenland, based on a "population" living there of German "speaking" peoples, he expected France and other European countries to "forcefully" object. They did NOTHING, trying to appease Hitler. Hitler later said, if the most powerful army in the world (France) at the time had intervened, his much lesser army at the time would have had to retreat. MAYBE, WW2 never happens at that point or at least much later? Recently, we have seen Putin invade Georgia because why? Many Russian speaking people live there. Next, it was Crimea. Now, it's the Russian "speaking population" of Eastern Ukraine. Make no mistake, Putin has no desire to stop his Czarist conquests at Ukraine. Think of it what you will, but history is repeating itself NOW! Europe doesn't want to repeat the Sudetenland "appeasement" fiasco. No, Putin isn't Hitler by a long shot, but he's definitely using Hitler's playbook.

And when the rest of the world should be telling him "no, let bygones be bygones and move on", they'll approve of each little conquest until it goes way too far. Pulling out of Afghanistan like we did showed our old, feeble hand.

 

[DieJager]

But I am not sure consigning the population of Eastern Europe to a Russian dominated neutral netherworld should ever be part of such an appeasement.

I think that is not the point Hitchens makes. I agree that Russia must be halted and that the people of Eastern Europe must be free and have the government of their choice.

But let's not make the same mistakes and that goes both ways. Appeasement is not the answer nor is decades of a new cold war.

 

[Wheels]

Roughly speaking, the Dnieper River divides Ukraine. Russians make up over 50% of the population on the eastern side, Ukrainians make up over 50% of the population on the western side.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Russia has so little to gain and so much to lose from this expansionism, the only rationalle for it seems to be to regain the 'glory' of the former Soviet Union. For sure it will harden Europe's defense resolve, re- energise NATO and hopefully jog the USA into the realisation of it being the leader of the free world. With a weak and woke leadership in the USA Russia's action was inevitable, as will be China's upcoming forray. Those are known in form and consequence. The ones to really worry about are Iran and North Korea - their quest is not more land, it is the destruction of the West itself.

 

[Dudders]

Roughly speaking, the Dnieper River divides Ukraine. Russians make up over 50% of the population on the eastern side, Ukrainians make up over 50% of the population on the western side.

I was looking at a map of Ukraine on the weekend and thought that a quick push to the Dnieper river would look quite appealing to Putin in full tonto mode.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Russia has so little to gain and so much to lose from this expansionism, the only rationalle for it seems to be to regain the 'glory' of the former Soviet Union. For sure it will harden Europe's defense resolve, re- energise NATO and hopefully jog the USA into the realisation of it being the leader of the free world. With a weak and woke leadership in the USA Russia's action was inevitable, as will be China's upcoming forray. Those are known in form and consequence. The ones to really worry about are Iran and North Korea - their quest is not more land, it is the destruction of the West itself.

Yep, our Brandon is the Neville Chamberlain in our time. He draws on his 45 years in Congress of incompetence and appeasement to "lead" the free world. He has surrounded himself with like minded clueless career politicians and according to several retired high ranking military men, "Biden is the greatest threat to our national security in years". The former Secretary of Defense under both Bush and Obama, Robert Gates, stated " Biden hasn't made a correct foreign policy decision in his 45 years in Congress". Comforting isn't it? Afghanistan anyone? Between Russia, China, Iran and North Korea, we'll ALL be lucky to get out of his Presidency alive!