Politics

[Altitude sickness]

I was hoping Mark would add his knowledge on fire control systems. I said FC is not my thing.

But it is definitely Marks thing.

 

[Tanks]

I just don't get their end game.

https://www.axios.com/2026/07/28/iran-missile-attack-us-base-jordan

 

[Brent in Az]

For those day dreaming that a US Navy ship fired a surface to air missile to shoot down the airliner, I ask, how much do you know about US Navy Command and Control systems? First, Navy C2 is connected via Naval Tactical Data Link to USAF AWACS, USMC C2, and US Army air defense systems. Unless it was the only ship or sensor for 100 miles, other sensors would have seen and tracked the airliner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Tactical_Data_System

Aboard ship is the Navy Combat Information Center (CIC) where air defense operators monitor the display scopes with tracks collected and integrated (sensor fusion) from ALL of the above listed C2 systems. Within the CIC computers fuse the tracks of aircraft and threats, i.e. airborne missiles and surface ships. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_information_center

All commercial aircraft use Intruder Friend or Foe (IFF) systems ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification_friend_or_foe ). Commercial aircraft “squawk” Mode III responses when interrogated which provides identification information on CIC operator displays. Military aircraft squawk Mode IV responses with encrypted identification information. During Desert Storm aboard USS TRIPOLI many days and nights I’d check our USMC Stinger gunners. They’d interrogate wave after wave of aircraft engressing and egressing aircraft looking for their first kill. Trouble was each and every plane provided the proper Mode IV response.

The stinger gunners like missile operators within the CIC did NOT have Weapons Release Authority, “Weapons Free”. No, there are many safeguard procedures along with redundant technical safeguards to prevent fratricide. War is dangerous enough without our defense systems killing troops accidentally! Our gunners be they Stinger or Standard Missile 6 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-174_Standard_ERAM ) must seek Weapons Release Authority form the Tactical Action Officer (TAO) in the CIC ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_Action_Officer ).

The US DoW requires dual safeties designed into ordnance and weapons. Did you ever notice military rifles like today’s M-16 based platforms have two-stage triggers? Think about why that may be. Munitions with high explosive warheads must have two-stage fuze trains. Systems such as Patriot, USN ships, and so on have more than a single button to fire.

Then there are the Sailors. God bless them. But those guys and gals get drunk from time to time (in port of course). They are NOT 3-letter operators “read into” programs from which divulging secrets will put them in jail. They are the best of America but keeping a secret that a SM-6 was fired near the same time and place a commercial airliner was shot down is NOT going to be a secret for long! Especially not 30 years! Not only will the entire CIC crew know, the entire ship will feel the missile fire! “What the hell did we shoot at?”

Okay Sherlocks, perhaps there is a more probable theory than the US Navy shot down an airliner near Long Island?

My money was on terrorists.
The U.S.S Normandy was said to be 180 miles away from the scene of Flight 800.
That's outside the range of those surface to air missiles. Yes?

 

[Brent in Az]

Mamdani is mayor of NYC. They met in DC. However, he already said he did not have the authority anyway.

The original news said that Bibi was going to NYC for some function? Not sure about the accuracy of that reporting, but thats why Mamdani was blustering about arresting him
I was hoping to see a show down between Mamdani's cops and Bibi's personnel security, and Secret Service protection detail.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Here’s a shirt for @Red Leg

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

For those day dreaming that a US Navy ship fired a surface to air missile to shoot down the airliner, I ask, how much do you know about US Navy Command and Control systems? First, Navy C2 is connected via Naval Tactical Data Link to USAF AWACS, USMC C2, and US Army air defense systems. Unless it was the only ship or sensor for 100 miles, other sensors would have seen and tracked the airliner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Tactical_Data_System

Aboard ship is the Navy Combat Information Center (CIC) where air defense operators monitor the display scopes with tracks collected and integrated (sensor fusion) from ALL of the above listed C2 systems. Within the CIC computers fuse the tracks of aircraft and threats, i.e. airborne missiles and surface ships. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_information_center

All commercial aircraft use Intruder Friend or Foe (IFF) systems ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification_friend_or_foe ). Commercial aircraft “squawk” Mode III responses when interrogated which provides identification information on CIC operator displays. Military aircraft squawk Mode IV responses with encrypted identification information. During Desert Storm aboard USS TRIPOLI many days and nights I’d check our USMC Stinger gunners. They’d interrogate wave after wave of aircraft engressing and egressing aircraft looking for their first kill. Trouble was each and every plane provided the proper Mode IV response.

The stinger gunners like missile operators within the CIC did NOT have Weapons Release Authority, “Weapons Free”. No, there are many safeguard procedures along with redundant technical safeguards to prevent fratricide. War is dangerous enough without our defense systems killing troops accidentally! Our gunners be they Stinger or Standard Missile 6 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-174_Standard_ERAM ) must seek Weapons Release Authority form the Tactical Action Officer (TAO) in the CIC ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_Action_Officer ).

The US DoW requires dual safeties designed into ordnance and weapons. Did you ever notice military rifles like today’s M-16 based platforms have two-stage triggers? Think about why that may be. Munitions with high explosive warheads must have two-stage fuze trains. Systems such as Patriot, USN ships, and so on have more than a single button to fire.

Then there are the Sailors. God bless them. But those guys and gals get drunk from time to time (in port of course). They are NOT 3-letter operators “read into” programs from which divulging secrets will put them in jail. They are the best of America but keeping a secret that a SM-6 was fired near the same time and place a commercial airliner was shot down is NOT going to be a secret for long! Especially not 30 years! Not only will the entire CIC crew know, the entire ship will feel the missile fire! “What the hell did we shoot at?”

Okay Sherlocks, perhaps there is a more probable theory than the US Navy shot down an airliner near Long Island?

@Mark A Ouellette, I am not a conspiracy theorist and I accept the NTSB findings. I also accept and appreciate your very authoritative and detailed explanation of fire control. However, the US Navy did shoot down one of their own, a F-18 on final approach to a carrier. Fortunately, the crew safely ejected with seconds to spare.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

However, the US Navy did shoot down one of their own, a F-18 on final approach to a carrier. Fortunately, the crew safely ejected with seconds to spare.

Correct! Accidents happen. I suspect operator error resulting in heads chopped off. Careers ended at the minimum. If negligent, those responsible are court marshalled and go to jail.

No chance of keeping such things secret.

 

[Brent in Az]

IFF is not foolproof, especially its not turned on, and it's more challenging in low altitude airspace.

 

[Brent in Az]

American Airlines planes grounded nationwide because of an IT outage.

 

[Brent in Az]

6 or 7 years ago, I met a woman at the local cigar shop/lounge that was a retired NTSB investigator. She would come to the cigar lounge on Saturday mornings with her partner (Yes, she smoked cigars)
She was one of the investigators brought in for the flight 800 case.
I tried to prod her with questions, but she was reluctant to talk about it, so I didn't push the issue.

 

[Brent in Az]

Does being a so called "Critical thinker" mean that 244 credible witnesses out of 755, are completely full of shit, and didn't really see what they saw.? ( According to the wonderfully honest folks of the CIA?)
I'll take gut instinct over critical thinking when it comes down to the flight 800 fiasco. I don't get off on mental gymnastics.

1:14:40

 

[Red Leg]

Does being a so called "Critical thinker" mean that 244 credible witnesses out of 755, are completely full of shit, and didn't really see what they saw.? ( According to the wonderfully honest folks of the CIA?)
I'll take gut instinct over critical thinking when it comes down to the flight 800 fiasco. I don't get off on mental gymnastics.

1:14:40

Exactly

 

[Brent in Az]

Exactly

Well.....we all know the drill with you. Redleg is always right and everyone else is always wrong.....regardless
I think you have critical thinking confused with military arrogance.

 

[fourfive8]

Stuff happens. In 1961 an Air Guard F100 on a pursuit training mission accidentally fired a live sidewinder and shot down a B 52 in Western NM. I was finding green coated aluminum aircraft pieces scattered over a wide area of the general crash site through much of the 70s and early 80s.

 

[Red Leg]

IFF is not foolproof, especially its not turned on, and it's more challenging in low altitude airspace.

Well.....we all know the drill with you. Redleg is always right and everyone else is always wrong.....regardless
I think you have critical thinking confused with military arrogance.

Thank you. I assume that is derived from your wealth of military experience in air defense? And I am the one who is arrogant?

Commercial aircraft do not carry military IFF - none of them. They carry a civilian transponder that provides (squawks) ID and altitude data to ATC. The signals are totally unencrypted. But, even an aircraft without a functioning transponder does not constitute a "target" to US air defense systems/

Besides, Navy vessels do not typically shoot at airliners. The US has indeed done it once - but in a war zone - in 1988 - when an Aegis cruiser mistakenly shot down an Iranian airliner. As usual, the US was transparent about the incident, admitted responsibility, and paid over 60 mil USD in compensation to the families - at the same time we essentially were in a naval war with Iran. Should that happen by some unimaginable set of circumstances outside a warzone, then US would publicly acknowledge responsibility and conduct a thorough investigation known to the public.

And it isn't arrogance Brent. But what do you want me to do in these discussions - hide the fact I was a professional soldier so people can feel comfortable spouting nonsense? Please note that I, for instance, avoid dialogue on subjects like oil pricing. It is not something about which I have personal expertise. I have opinions, but they are based on a very thin foundation of actual knowledge. Fortunately we have contributors with vast experience on that subject and many others. I try to listen to them. What is frustrating to me are contributions on issues about which the contributor knows almost nothing. To post YouTube videos without the ability to critically analyze them is not providing evidence of anything - other than the poster's gullibility. This sort of unquestioning assumption that a conspiracy is true, whichever one is currently in vogue, is simply disheartening for me.

 

[fourfive8]

About the same time frame as the B 52 shoot down, Cold War peak of the 60s, Pershing missiles were being launched from Ft Wingate, NM and a launch test area near Green River, Utah to White Sands Missile Range in NM. One of the Pershing launches from Ft Wingate self destructed shortly after launch, scattering Pershing pieces over a wide area of private and USFS land. All manner of odd, small structural and electronics parts can still be found in the debris footprint. Stuff happens.

 

[Scott CWO]

In this case, international law are a set of treaties that the United States have signed on to, ratified and agreed to abide by. Some would argue it is larger than that, but since this is an American dominated forum I think it best to stick with the fairly uncontroversial stuff.

You are entirely correct that many of the west's enemies are savages. That does not give us license to sink to their level.

And the people of Gaza, are surely not all Hamas, any more than the people of Germany were all Nazis, the people of Russia were all Communists or the people of the United States are all Republicans.

Civilized nations make a distinction between civilians and legitimate targets. If you don't make that distinction you may as well stop calling Iran a terrorist nation, or Hamas a terrorist organization and call them "peers" or "brothers". There is a difference between "us" and "them" and that needs to be

Bringing up Republicans in association with a weak point about Hamas is a bit low for you. About 50% of Gazans still support the October 7th mission and those are just the ones that will publicly admit it. I suspect that the actual percentage is a fair bit higher.

As for dealing with the Nazis, didn’t we carpet bomb several areas of Germany? I guess you think that the 8th Air Force crews were barbarians comparable to Hamas fighters? I bet your views of the Israeli military are “interesting.”

We’ve been dealing with the IRGC for 47 years. I think we have shown too much restraint.

 

[Hunt anything]

And hardly anyone at all brings up Putin deliberately targeting civilians in Ukraine with cruise missiles and drones on almost a nightly basis.

 

[spike.t]

Iran buys Chinese shoulder-fired air defense missiles to rebuild defenses | The Jerusalem Post https://share.google/YJZ2TRbZ8dkIj1p7d

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

My money was on terrorists.
The U.S.S Normandy was said to be 180 miles away from the scene of Flight 800.
That's outside the range of those surface to air missiles. Yes?

Gosh, I didn't realize the distance between the conspiracy theory US Navy ship and the downed airliner was 180 miles! That makes this easy in that the open source (unclassified public knowledge) range of the Standard Missile 6 (SM-6) is 130 nautical miles or 146.6 standard miles. The classified maximum range may be more. From Wikipedia which I find to me 98+% accurate on unclassified information concerning most military technologies,

“Estimates of the SM-6's range vary; its official published range is 130 nmi (150 mi; 240 km), but it could be anywhere from 200 nmi (230 mi; 370 km)..." for surface to air targets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-174_Standard_ERAM

SM-6 Missile launches and the entire crew knows something happened...​

Now, allow me to backpeddle a bit. TWA Flight went down in 1996, almost two decades prior to the fielding of the SM-6 in 2013. In 1996 the US Navy ships were armed with the Standard Missile 2 (SM-2) with a range for surface to air targets of 92 nautical miles. That is well outside of the capability of even the wildest of Navy-gone-bad theories.

RIM-66 Standard - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org