Politics

[fourfive8]

I too have never been 100% comfortable with the best guess conclusions about this incident. I certainly don’t know the cause. I wonder if they considered trying to duplicate the center tank vapor explosion triggered by short circuit in sensor wiring theory? I know kerosene vapor requires at least a temp of 100F to ignite. It’s likely a modeling estimate for that temp is available for the flight at time of incident. Seems like an easy test to at least attempt to duplicate their best guess cause.

 

[Brent in Az]

NTSB recreated the fuel tank explosion by heating the small amount of jet fuel that was left in the tank to the point of creating vapor, and then igniting it by a short circuit high voltage spark.
The one factor that was not part of that test, is the fact that jet airplanes are like automobiles and have a vapor pressure purging system while in operation.
The belly tank of a 747 is six feet tall and 20 feet long.
After the flight 800 incident, it was recommended to pump nitrogen enriched air into empty fuel tanks as a safety precaution

 

[Altitude sickness]

Plenty of talking points that certainly could raise red flags over the FBI investigation claims

There are so many details in that video that are easily disputed or outright proven wrong.

One is that in 1996 the CIA and FBI were not allowed to work together during investigations or communicate with each other due to “The Wall”

That is simply not true. They worked together all the time. The rule was that each had their own roles and had to stay inside of those rolls.

 

[Brent in Az]

Jack Cashill talked to people that are very familiar with 747 fuel tanks, and they said there are no wires INSIDE the tank

 

[Brent in Az]

The NTSB employees are experts in transportation investigations. But I would like to ask Hughes how many craft has he inspected or investigated that were shot out of the sky by hand held missile platforms as he proposes. I’m sure that number is zero.

Remember that the missile story started immediately. So every question by media and civilians were biased that way.

The FBI is always involved if civilians are thought to be shot out of the sky. that is not new. And they would always get involved in that scenario.


Each relative military service branch intelligence and investigative branch would also be involved if they thought a rocket shot a civilian plane out of the air in their area of expertise.

I clearly remember all the stories about a missile strike. So immediately tried to contact several people on that operation to get the scoop. ( Anyone left out of a big operation like that is a busy body and feels left out and experience a huge FOMO feeling. I was not attached to such a team at the time and felt left out.

The people I tried to reach were heavily sequestered from the media. And as always were told to keep their mouths shut on the crash subject. So I wasn’t able to get any info until the salvage operation was over. The media blackout is normal.

I will tell you that the people that I asked their opinion about flight 800 have pulled more aircraft from the ocean floor that either crashed, ran out of fuel or were shot down by cannon or missiles than those NTSB investigators combined would see in a career.

So they know what an aircraft looks like when riddled with anti aircraft munitions or a missile flies through the fuselage with or without an explosion. If it penciled through or detonated correctly.

As an operation like this moves forward, focuses of the investigation can change as each piece of information comes in. Hourly and daily. The salvage team would’ve been told OK we need these particular pieces. This is what we’re looking for.

During another famous operation the Challenger salvage eventually turned all focus to finding the solid rocket Oring seal. So of course everybody tries to be objective but everyone also knows the rumors of the missile strike so they would’ve had that front of mind as they pull each important and unimportant piece from the water.

Remember there was also a rumor that a navy ship fired a rocket by mistake. So the
Navy investigators and Intelligence would’ve been directly involved with the divers as they brought each piece up. So the first people to get their grubby mitts on each piece of aircraft were Navy salvage divers. Then most likely Navy investigators next. Then the NTSB.

Also, If it was to cover for Clinton’s election. All the agencies involved are actually biased towards a kinetic response than a cover up. The most logical outcome if it were a terrorist missile would be finding who did it and killing them. not covering it up.

I would think a wag the dog operation would’ve been more likely to help Clinton politically than a cover up would.


Anyway. I stand by the guys I know very well telling me that it was clearly not a missile.

Hughes was directly responsible for the reconstruction of that 747 from the thousands of pieces that were brought in.
I don't think anyone in the NTSB, or FBI, for that matter, have any experience investigating airliners shot down by missiles.
It all comes down to forensics, and knowing what to look for.

 

[RLD]

How are objectives advanced when dealing with people that support the

Unfortunately, while "international law" (whatever that is?) may have changed, the savages of the world have not changed and the only way they learn is by paying a price. Just eliminating military targets does not do much to change the hearts and minds of the extremists and citizens. A perfect example is Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization that later became political and the people of Gaza voted for Hamas candidates and policies. The people of Gaza are now Hamas. They are not innocent civilians without blood on their hands. They absolutely needed to pay a price. To what degree may be debated, but a price, nonetheless.

Much the same can be said for a large part of the population of Iran. The mullahs and the IRGC are not without support. Perhaps we can keep Iran in a box and just degrade their nuclear program from time to time but this Strait of Hormuz situation is a problem for which a price must be paid.

In this case, international law are a set of treaties that the United States have signed on to, ratified and agreed to abide by. Some would argue it is larger than that, but since this is an American dominated forum I think it best to stick with the fairly uncontroversial stuff.

You are entirely correct that many of the west's enemies are savages. That does not give us license to sink to their level.

And the people of Gaza, are surely not all Hamas, any more than the people of Germany were all Nazis, the people of Russia were all Communists or the people of the United States are all Republicans.

Civilized nations make a distinction between civilians and legitimate targets. If you don't make that distinction you may as well stop calling Iran a terrorist nation, or Hamas a terrorist organization and call them "peers" or "brothers". There is a difference between "us" and "them" and that needs to be maintained.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Jack Cashill talked to people that are very familiar with 747 fuel tanks, and they said there are no wires INSIDE the tank

Once again. Easily researched and disproven.

When asked Mr. Cashill says most of the evidence points to a U.S. Naval asset firing the missile.

So let’s pull on that string. Fire control systems are not my thing. But I’m quite sure some E-6 didn’t bump into the wrong toggle switch and shoot down a jet. There are a fair amount of controls to keep things like that from happening.

So for argument sake, all those missile controls were somehow bypassed. The Navy shot down the jet.

What makes you believe for a second that the Clinton administration wouldn’t throw that whole ships crew under the bus and have them in jail immediately. if you remember, The Clinton administration wasn’t pro military.

Has anybody explained why the Clinton administration would suddenly care about any military member?

The Navy has destroyed careers of many ship skippers that made mistakes and killed civilians by mistake in the past.

 

[Red Leg]

The only role of the CIA in the investigation was PSYOPS, to make the missile talk go away.

There is so much that you yourself with a modicum of research could refute in these videos.

 

[Red Leg]

Jack Cashill talked to people that are very familiar with 747 fuel tanks, and they said there are no wires INSIDE the tank

"He talked to them ..............." Must be true and we must discount the actual investigation. The mind of a conspiracist is almost impossible to comprehend.

 

[Brent in Az]

Once again. Easily researched and disproven.

When asked Mr. Cashill says most of the evidence points to a U.S. Naval asset firing the missile.

So let’s pull on that string. Fire control systems are not my thing. But I’m quite sure some E-6 didn’t bump into the wrong toggle switch and shoot down a jet. There are a fair amount of controls to keep things like that from happening.

So for argument sake, all those missile controls were somehow bypassed. The Navy shot down the jet.

What makes you believe for a second that the Clinton administration wouldn’t throw that whole ships crew under the bus and have them in jail immediately. if you remember, The Clinton administration wasn’t pro military.

Has anybody explained why the Clinton administration would suddenly care about any military member?

The Navy has destroyed careers of many ship skippers that made mistakes and killed civilians by mistake in the past.


View attachment 780042

There are plenty of probes in the fuel tank, but they are sealed units , just like a fuel pump/ sending unit in an automobile. They are all low voltage in the 747 tank.
The. NTSB claim is that somehow high voltage jumped from chaffed wires into the low voltage system of the metering probes in the fuel tank.
Any spark would have to come out of the probe itself, as there are no wires running thru the tank. The wires come from the outside
Are the probes made of metal or a plastic?

As far as the Clinton's are concerned, who knows what goes on in their minds over that incident.
Even if it was brought to pubic eye that the Navy did in fact accidentally shoot down an airliner, Clinton would take the heat by proxy, as commander in chief.
Certainly not something he wants in an election year.

 

[tinktink12]

 

[Brent in Az]

"He talked to them ..............." Must be true and we must discount the actual investigation. The mind of a conspiracist is almost impossible to comprehend.

Yeah, I guess talking with engineers and airplane mechanics that know those planes inside and out must be some form of fictitious subterfuge.
The mind of a denier is almost impossible to comprehend.

 

[Tanks]

You are entirely correct that many of the west's enemies are savages. That does not give us license to sink to their level.

Hmmm, Connery disagrees with that approach.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

O.M.G. ... this is sooooo old... Just freaking go all Kurt Russell/Tombstone train station on them already.

This is what we should say at the negotiating table...

 

[RLD]

Hmmm, Connery disagrees with that approach.

Who am I to disagree with 007?

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Kinda scary...

 

[Tanks]

Kinda scary...

View attachment 780094

You know part of me wishes for Talarico to win to show that MAGA purity tests do not work in purple or red leaning states. It always comes to this where people fight against a guy who agrees with them 90+% of the time and choose a guy that they agree with 100% of the time and then go and lose the general election to a guy who will agree with them 0% of the time.

Time will tell.

 

[Brent in Az]

Bibi meets with Trump, and to pay his respects to Graham lying in state.
Apparently, Mamdani's threats to arrest him was empty blather

 

[Tanks]

Bibi meets with Trump, and to pay his respects to Graham lying in state.
Apparently, Mamdani's threats to arrest him was empty blather

Mamdani is mayor of NYC. They met in DC. However, he already said he did not have the authority anyway.

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

When asked Mr. Cashill says most of the evidence points to a U.S. Naval asset firing the missile.

So let’s pull on that string. Fire control systems are not my thing. But I’m quite sure some E-6 didn’t bump into the wrong toggle switch and shoot down a jet. There are a fair amount of controls to keep things like that from happening.

So for argument sake, all those missile controls were somehow bypassed. The Navy shot down the jet.

For those day dreaming that a US Navy ship fired a surface to air missile to shoot down the airliner, I ask, how much do you know about US Navy Command and Control systems? First, Navy C2 is connected via Naval Tactical Data Link to USAF AWACS, USMC C2, and US Army air defense systems. Unless it was the only ship or sensor for 100 miles, other sensors would have seen and tracked the airliner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Tactical_Data_System

Aboard ship is the Navy Combat Information Center (CIC) where air defense operators monitor the display scopes with tracks collected and integrated (sensor fusion) from ALL of the above listed C2 systems. Within the CIC computers fuse the tracks of aircraft and threats, i.e. airborne missiles and surface ships. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_information_center

All commercial aircraft use Intruder Friend or Foe (IFF) systems ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification_friend_or_foe ). Commercial aircraft “squawk” Mode III responses when interrogated which provides identification information on CIC operator displays. Military aircraft squawk Mode IV responses with encrypted identification information. During Desert Storm aboard USS TRIPOLI many days and nights I’d check our USMC Stinger gunners. They’d interrogate wave after wave of aircraft engressing and egressing aircraft looking for their first kill. Trouble was each and every plane provided the proper Mode IV response.

The stinger gunners like missile operators within the CIC did NOT have Weapons Release Authority, “Weapons Free”. No, there are many safeguard procedures along with redundant technical safeguards to prevent fratricide. War is dangerous enough without our defense systems killing troops accidentally! Our gunners be they Stinger or Standard Missile 6 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-174_Standard_ERAM ) must seek Weapons Release Authority form the Tactical Action Officer (TAO) in the CIC ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_Action_Officer ).

The US DoW requires dual safeties designed into ordnance and weapons. Did you ever notice military rifles like today’s M-16 based platforms have two-stage triggers? Think about why that may be. Munitions with high explosive warheads must have two-stage fuze trains. Systems such as Patriot, USN ships, and so on have more than a single button to fire.

Then there are the Sailors. God bless them. But those guys and gals get drunk from time to time (in port of course). They are NOT 3-letter operators “read into” programs from which divulging secrets will put them in jail. They are the best of America but keeping a secret that a SM-6 was fired near the same time and place a commercial airliner was shot down is NOT going to be a secret for long! Especially not 30 years! Not only will the entire CIC crew know, the entire ship will feel the missile fire! “What the hell did we shoot at?”

Okay Sherlocks, perhaps there is a more probable theory than the US Navy shot down an airliner near Long Island?