Politics

[KJE81]

Besides all the other jobs Rubio has had in this administration. Perhaps the Don should have Marco do all of his speaking for him.

That would probably be a great idea!

 

[mark-hunter]

Just curious regarding the general feel of the population in Europe. With Russia bogged down in Ukraine and not strong enough to force a victory after four years. Are Europeans concerned that Russia is strong enough and want to establish a two front war by invading Western Europe.

Invading western Europe?
For what? This is the key question, please memorize it till I get down to point.

Soviet union, was communist regime having doctrine of spreading and supporting communist idea and revolution globally.
The threat of communist ideology spreading globally created the Nato.

Next what happened soviet union collapsed, and Russia turned to capitalist system.
Soviet communist system collapsed.
No more communist spreading doctrine.
Cold war was won by west.

So, now with modern capitalist Russia we come back to basic question of the reasons for Russian invasion:

Why should they invade?
- Oil? Nope. They have it.
- Gas? Nope. they have it.
- Rare earth minerals? Nope. They have it.
- Territory? Nope. Largest country in the world, with large depopulated mainland areas, yet to be populated. Not to mention the largest portion of arctic they already control for resources.

Generally speaking, Europe, the old continent poor and exhausted with natural resources, has nothing to offer what "imperialist" Russians would find worthy of invasions.

In order to launch invasion, a country regime needs to announce this policy, and inform its own populations. Generally, building a pro-war sentiment and national public opinion takes years to build by state propaganda.

So, far Russians never stated any claim against any European (EU) or Nato state. They were just fine doing business with them selling cheap oil and gas. Until we cut them out from business.

Winter 2021: I was working in Kierkeness. Most remote arctic Norwegian town, on Russian border.
Population sentiment was friendly. Russian fishing fleet refueling there, etc... Fishery agreements well established, all smooth, no frictions, easy border crossings, mixed marriages, etc.

Next we come down to what is general population in Europe, and how they form the opinion?

Well, we are multicultural, multiethnic, and multireligous society.

So we have diversity starting from traditional communities, up to first, second or third generation of Immigrants.
Traditional communities are generally divided in left or right political spectrum, and then Pakistani, Indian, Moroccan, Fare east Asians, Chinese, withntheir views, etc

And they all look differently at everything, including Russia.

The same present main stream (anti Russian) political narrative does not sit equally to each of these groups, and in general, I think all of them just want what Europe was promising once: Stable economy, friendly community, joint market, and good living.
The immigrants did not arrive here to fight with Russians.
Traditional Europeans family (German, British, French, you name it), generally with one child, does neot want their one and only to die on eastern front.

I find this to be joint sentiment and the dream for peoples across the Europe.
The dream of good life, not a war of attrition, what generally becomes from war with Russia.

And as the war in Ukraine brings no fruits, the sentiment over the conflict is people are tired of this endless war, pointless money wastage, disastrous human losses, while the prices grow, and the living standard drops....

 

[375 Ruger Fan]

Trump said the US is ‘totally independent of the Middle East.’ He’s overlooking how global energy markets work.

In Wednesday night’s address to the nation, President Trump declared, “We're now totally independent of the Middle East, and yet, we are there to help.” The assertions overlook key goods that come from the region and global energy interdependence.

finance.yahoo.com

 

[WAB]

I would argue a lot of the depends on context, mega can also be used to differentiate between right of centre and hard or alt rights. Maga seems to be a very hard right leaning movement with isolationist ideals. One could almost make the point that trump formed a coalition of sorts between centralists all the way to the far right. Atleast that has been my observation based on the opinions expressed on this forum.

I think that I am likely representative of many conservatives. I have never voted for Trump in a Primary, however, I have voted for him all three times in the General Election. Why? I align more closely with conservative policies, which he does not. However, he has been the better choice in the general election. Does that mean he has formed a coalition of MAGA and conservatives? Perhaps, but more realistically allies of necessity.

 

[Kalthoff]

There are many ways to tell the truth and the screen shot of your graph is not one of them.

Your graph says that the "EU council" contributed 0 in military aid, while the USA contributed $65bil.

EU does not have a Military, therefore EU cannot deliver Military aid.

It is the same with "America". There is no "American military", only individual countries in America such as Canada, Brazil, Mexico, Uruguay, US, Argentina etc. each of which have their own militarizes and therefore can choose to deliver military aid.

If you want to know the sum of military aid delivered by countries who happen to be a member of the EU, or by countries who are located in Europe you have to to the sum yourself, the data is in the graph.

Here is the graph from KJE81s post, repeated for convenience:

 

[Red Leg]

Invading western Europe?
For what? This is the key question, please memorize it till I get down to point.

Soviet union, was communist regime having doctrine of spreading and supporting communist idea and revolution globally.
The threat of communist ideology spreading globally created the Nato.

Next what happened soviet union collapsed, and Russia turned to capitalist system.
Soviet communist system collapsed.
No more communist spreading doctrine.
Cold war was won by west.

So, now with modern capitalist Russia we come back to basic question of the reasons for Russian invasion:

Why should they invade?
- Oil? Nope. They have it.
- Gas? Nope. they have it.
- Rare earth minerals? Nope. They have it.
- Territory? Nope. Largest country in the world, with large depopulated mainland areas, yet to be populated. Not to mention the largest portion of arctic they already control for resources.

Generally speaking, Europe, the old continent poor and exhausted with natural resources, has nothing to offer what "imperialist" Russians would find worthy of invasions.

In order to launch invasion, a country regime needs to announce this policy, and inform its own populations. Generally, building a pro-war sentiment and national public opinion takes years to build by state propaganda.

So, far Russians never stated any claim against any European (EU) or Nato state. They were just fine doing business with them selling cheap oil and gas. Until we cut them out from business.

Winter 2021: I was working in Kierkeness. Most remote arctic Norwegian town, on Russian border.
Population sentiment was friendly. Russian fishing fleet refueling there, etc... Fishery agreements well established, all smooth, no frictions, easy border crossings, mixed marriages, etc.

Next we come down to what is general population in Europe, and how they form the opinion?

Well, we are multicultural, multiethnic, and multireligous society.

So we have diversity starting from traditional communities, up to first, second or third generation of Immigrants.
Traditional communities are generally divided in left or right political spectrum, and then Pakistani, Indian, Moroccan, Fare east Asians, Chinese, withntheir views, etc

And they all look differently at everything, including Russia.

The same present main stream (anti Russian) political narrative does not sit equally to each of these groups, and in general, I think all of them just want what Europe was promising once: Stable economy, friendly community, joint market, and good living.
The immigrants did not arrive here to fight with Russians.
Traditional Europeans family (German, British, French, you name it), generally with one child, does neot want their one and only to die on eastern front.

I find this to be joint sentiment and the dream for peoples across the Europe.
The dream of good life, not a war of attrition, what generally becomes from war with Russia.

And as the war in Ukraine brings no fruits, the sentiment over the conflict is people are tired of this endless war, pointless money wastage, disastrous human losses, while the prices grow, and the living standard drops....

Based on your logic, Russia never invaded Ukraine. With respect to people being "tired of this endless war," Europe should bear in mind that the Russian population have no opinion at all.

I absolutely believe Putin has classic territorial ambitions that fueled both the USSR's and Imperial Russia's efforts as much as any ideology. I think it is pretty clear that he covets the Baltics and Russia's claims on eastern Poland are very similar to the "historical precedence" argument Putin makes with respect to Ukraine. After all, Russia reached its greatest geographic size under the Tsars in the mid19th century.

While I would agree that the likelihood of a Russian Army attempting to advance to Berlin is very unlikely in the immediate future, a Europe dominated by Russian economic and policy demands is a very real threat and would be a far more oppressive environment than anything currently being experienced by Trump's periodic tantrums.

 

[Red Leg]

I think that I am likely representative of many conservatives. I have never voted for Trump in a Primary, however, I have voted for him all three times in the General Election. Why? I align more closely with conservative policies, which he does not. However, he has been the better choice in the general election. Does that mean he has formed a coalition of MAGA and conservatives? Perhaps, but more realistically allies of necessity.

Perfectly stated.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Based on your logic, Russia never invaded Ukraine. With respect to people being "tired of this endless war," Europe should bear in mind that the Russian population have no opinion at all.

I absolutely believe Putin has classic territorial ambitions that fueled both the USSR's and Imperial Russia's efforts as much as any ideology. I think it is pretty clear that he covets the Baltics and Russia's claims on eastern Poland are very similar to the "historical precedence" argument Putin makes with respect to Ukraine. After all, Russia reached its greatest geographic size under the Tsars in the mid19th century.

While I would agree that the likelihood of a Russian Army attempting to advance to Berlin is very unlikely in the immediate future, a Europe dominated by Russian economic and policy demands is a very real threat and would be a far more oppressive environment than anything currently being experienced by Trump's periodic tantrums.

Putin has left little doubt during multiple lengthy interviews. That he thinks the historical USSR borders are a Physical Law. Or even Pantheism.

That it’s not even debatable

 

[mdwest]

Invading western Europe?
For what? This is the key question, please memorize it till I get down to point.

Soviet union, was communist regime having doctrine of spreading and supporting communist idea and revolution globally.
The threat of communist ideology spreading globally created the Nato.

Next what happened soviet union collapsed, and Russia turned to capitalist system.
Soviet communist system collapsed.
No more communist spreading doctrine.
Cold war was won by west.

So, now with modern capitalist Russia we come back to basic question of the reasons for Russian invasion:

Why should they invade?
- Oil? Nope. They have it.
- Gas? Nope. they have it.
- Rare earth minerals? Nope. They have it.
- Territory? Nope. Largest country in the world, with large depopulated mainland areas, yet to be populated. Not to mention the largest portion of arctic they already control for resources.

Generally speaking, Europe, the old continent poor and exhausted with natural resources, has nothing to offer what "imperialist" Russians would find worthy of invasions.

In order to launch invasion, a country regime needs to announce this policy, and inform its own populations. Generally, building a pro-war sentiment and national public opinion takes years to build by state propaganda.

So, far Russians never stated any claim against any European (EU) or Nato state. They were just fine doing business with them selling cheap oil and gas. Until we cut them out from business.

Winter 2021: I was working in Kierkeness. Most remote arctic Norwegian town, on Russian border.
Population sentiment was friendly. Russian fishing fleet refueling there, etc... Fishery agreements well established, all smooth, no frictions, easy border crossings, mixed marriages, etc.

Next we come down to what is general population in Europe, and how they form the opinion?

Well, we are multicultural, multiethnic, and multireligous society.

So we have diversity starting from traditional communities, up to first, second or third generation of Immigrants.
Traditional communities are generally divided in left or right political spectrum, and then Pakistani, Indian, Moroccan, Fare east Asians, Chinese, withntheir views, etc

And they all look differently at everything, including Russia.

The same present main stream (anti Russian) political narrative does not sit equally to each of these groups, and in general, I think all of them just want what Europe was promising once: Stable economy, friendly community, joint market, and good living.
The immigrants did not arrive here to fight with Russians.
Traditional Europeans family (German, British, French, you name it), generally with one child, does neot want their one and only to die on eastern front.

I find this to be joint sentiment and the dream for peoples across the Europe.
The dream of good life, not a war of attrition, what generally becomes from war with Russia.

And as the war in Ukraine brings no fruits, the sentiment over the conflict is people are tired of this endless war, pointless money wastage, disastrous human losses, while the prices grow, and the living standard drops....

While I agree with some of this post, and question other parts of it, the thing I find most interesting is that 40 years ago the US found itself closely aligned with Western European ideals and culture.. the Brits, Germans, French etc were our best of friends.. Reagan and Thatcher in particular not only worked very closely together on many things, they were noted for genuinely liking each other, enjoying each others company, and being legitimate personal friends…

While Eastern Europe was “the enemy”… we socially and politically could not have been further apart…

Fast forward to today… and the typical American conservative has far more socially and politically in common with a conservative Pole, Croat, Hungarian, etc than he does a typical “conservative” French, Belgian, German, etc.. and next to nothing in common with a European liberal…

I wonder whether that’s because there enough Eastern Europeans still alive that lived under the blight of communism/socialism to know and understand how much better the world is without it.. and while Western Europe continues to slowly progress toward socialism, the east rejects that notion? Or if it’s just that Eastern Europeans have different social values that are just more naturally aligned with US social values, or what?

Certainly an interesting dynamic… when I was 10 I was convinced that everyone living east of Germany in Europe was “bad”.. and everyone West of Germany was “good”… and we were constantly fed information via television, movies, politics, etc that convinced us of that… I’m sure the same was true behind the Iron Curtain…

Today I’ve got a number of friends in those former Soviet bloc states… and as a rule I tend to like them more than a lot of people in the “West” that I meet through work or socially…

That’s not to say I don’t have Western European friends or that I don’t like Western Europeans… I actually have many Western European friends….

I’m just saying as a rule, if I meet a random Pole tomorrow, I find it interesting that I am far more likely to be aligned with him and his social and political values than I am if I meet a random Frenchman on the same day..

 

[WAB]

While I agree with some of this post, and question other parts of it, the thing I find most interesting is that 40 years ago the US found itself closely aligned with Western European ideals and culture.. the Brits, Germans, French etc were our best of friends.. Reagan and Thatcher in particular not only worked very closely together on many things, they were noted for genuinely liking each other, enjoying each others company, and being legitimate personal friends…

While Eastern Europe was “the enemy”… we socially and politically could not have been further apart…

Fast forward to today… and the typical American conservative has far more socially and politically in common with a conservative Pole, Croat, Hungarian, etc than he does a typical “conservative” French, Belgian, German, etc.. and next to nothing in common with a European liberal…

I wonder whether that’s because there enough Eastern Europeans still alive that lived under the blight of communism/socialism to know and understand how much better the world is without it.. and while Western Europe continues to slowly progress toward socialism, the east rejects that notion? Or if it’s just that Eastern Europeans have different social values that are just more naturally aligned with US social values, or what?

Certainly an interesting dynamic… when I was 10 I was convinced that everyone living east of Germany in Europe was “bad”.. and everyone West of Germany was “good”… and we were constantly fed information via television, movies, politics, etc that convinced us of that… I’m sure the same was true behind the Iron Curtain…

Today I’ve got a number of friends in those former Soviet bloc states… and as a rule I tend to like them more than a lot of people in the “West” that I meet through work or socially…

That’s not to say I don’t have Western European friends or that I don’t like Western Europeans… I actually have many Western European friends….

I’m just saying as a rule, if I meet a random Pole tomorrow, I find it interesting that I am far more likely to be aligned with him and his social and political values than I am if I meet a random Frenchman on the same day..

I was actually having exactly this conversation with a friend recently. My time in Eastern European countries has been enlightening to say the least. Specific to the interests of this forum, the Eastern European countries are much more hunter friendly than many in the West.

 

[mdwest]

What is further interesting is (for me at least)..

I made a couple of trips to Russia back in the 2005-2007 time frame.. as a former "cold warrior" it was a really interesting and neat experience to actually go behind the walls of the Kremlin, see everything from the office space of a couple of the senior officials of government, see the dormition cathedral and the cathedral of the archangel (where the russian monarchs are buried), The annunciation cathedral (where the monarchs and princes of Russia went for private prayer) etc.. Most people in the US dont realize that there are actually Christian churches inside the Kremlin.. We spent a good bit of time at the offices of the World Bank in Moscow, in the offices of the Minister of Finance for Russia, and the Minister of Foreign Affairs for Russia during those visits as well as attending some evening social events (both state events and private events)..

While the "security" detail assigned to us was absolutely FSB (they didnt try to hide it.. they openly admitted it) and they were absolutely attempting to gather inteligence, etc the entire time we were there.. I found all of the Russian people we interacted with, to include their inteligence agents to be geniunely friendly, genuinely interested in "Americans" (beyond just their desire to try to glean intel.. they actually wanted to "know" what made an American, an "American", etc.. they, just like us, had been raised to believe that the people on the other side of the iron curtain were monsters with horns poking out of their heads, with only one desire.. world domination at any cost.. and after the iron curtain came down they realized that while each side probably did want world domination.. that didnt automatically make everyone a demon of some sort..

I found most of the Russians we worked around and worked with to be decent people.. they very much wanted the same things most people in the western world want.. they loved their kids.. they wanted a good job that paid the bills.. they wanted to laugh... etc etc... I actually really liked the FSB agent that was assigned to me as a direct counterpart.. he was a younger guy.. I'd guess less than 30.. married, with a young kid and was just starting to figure out what being a "family man" looked like.. He had no plan to retire from the government.. he knew his FSB credentials and experience would make him a very desireable hire for a well paying position doing security work for a Russian oil company and he was already working his network so that he could leave the FSB in a few years and transition into a cush job in oil and gas (perhaps I was doing a little intel gathering myself )...

Had he been born in the US rather than in Russia, I likely would have maintained contact with him, tried to help him with his pending career transition, etc.. he wasnt a bad guy at all as a human.. we had a lot of common interests, similar values (he was actually very socially conservative) and a similar career path up until that point..

 

[Brent in Az]

LOL....they are certainly full of themselves.

 

[Tanks]

Fast forward to today… and the typical American conservative has far more socially and politically in common with a conservative Pole, Croat, Hungarian, etc than he does a typical “conservative” French, Belgian, German, etc.. and next to nothing in common with a European liberal…

It also applies to the left here in the USA in regard to not having much in common with them socially and politically.

 

[mdwest]

LOL....they are certainly full of themselves.

View attachment 756869

Looks like John Boltons assessment of the situation and what he believed Trump would say and do last night was WAY off base lol..

 

[steve white]

Invading western Europe?
For what? This is the key question, please memorize it till I get down to point.

Soviet union, was communist regime having doctrine of spreading and supporting communist idea and revolution globally.
The threat of communist ideology spreading globally created the Nato.

Next what happened soviet union collapsed, and Russia turned to capitalist system.
Soviet communist system collapsed.
No more communist spreading doctrine.
Cold war was won by west.

So, now with modern capitalist Russia we come back to basic question of the reasons for Russian invasion:

Why should they invade?
- Oil? Nope. They have it.
- Gas? Nope. they have it.
- Rare earth minerals? Nope. They have it.
- Territory? Nope. Largest country in the world, with large depopulated mainland areas, yet to be populated. Not to mention the largest portion of arctic they already control for resources.

Generally speaking, Europe, the old continent poor and exhausted with natural resources, has nothing to offer what "imperialist" Russians would find worthy of invasions.

In order to launch invasion, a country regime needs to announce this policy, and inform its own populations. Generally, building a pro-war sentiment and national public opinion takes years to build by state propaganda.

So, far Russians never stated any claim against any European (EU) or Nato state. They were just fine doing business with them selling cheap oil and gas. Until we cut them out from business.

Winter 2021: I was working in Kierkeness. Most remote arctic Norwegian town, on Russian border.
Population sentiment was friendly. Russian fishing fleet refueling there, etc... Fishery agreements well established, all smooth, no frictions, easy border crossings, mixed marriages, etc.

Next we come down to what is general population in Europe, and how they form the opinion?

Well, we are multicultural, multiethnic, and multireligous society.

So we have diversity starting from traditional communities, up to first, second or third generation of Immigrants.
Traditional communities are generally divided in left or right political spectrum, and then Pakistani, Indian, Moroccan, Fare east Asians, Chinese, withntheir views, etc

And they all look differently at everything, including Russia.

The same present main stream (anti Russian) political narrative does not sit equally to each of these groups, and in general, I think all of them just want what Europe was promising once: Stable economy, friendly community, joint market, and good living.
The immigrants did not arrive here to fight with Russians.
Traditional Europeans family (German, British, French, you name it), generally with one child, does neot want their one and only to die on eastern front.

I find this to be joint sentiment and the dream for peoples across the Europe.
The dream of good life, not a war of attrition, what generally becomes from war with Russia.

And as the war in Ukraine brings no fruits, the sentiment over the conflict is people are tired of this endless war, pointless money wastage, disastrous human losses, while the prices grow, and the living standard drops....

None of the peoples you listed above had anything to do with a war in Ukraine--ONLY PUTIN initiated such action...care to comment on Chairman Putin's role? Perhaps the Russian endgame? Why Russia was not content to join the community of European nations?

 

[steve white]

Looks like John Boltons assessment of the situation and what he believed Trump would say and do last night was WAY off base lol..

I missed the address--could anyone here summarize the major points, please?

 

[steve white]

LOL....they are certainly full of themselves.

View attachment 756869

SOUNDS LIKE A GUY THAT COULD RUN FOR OFFICE IN DEARBORN MICHIGAN!

In regards to Iran's point of view, if they survive at all, they declare themselves victorious.

 

[mdwest]

I missed the address--could anyone here summarize the major points, please?

It was more of the same.. honestly nothing new at all..

The war is almost over.. almost all of the strategic objectives are achieved..

Irans Navy and Air Force cease to exist.. their missile capabilities are greatly degraded...

The conflict will be over in "2-3 more weeks"...

We are going to increase the pounding.. the next few weeks we are going to hit them "extremely hard"..

Oil prices will normalize as soon as Irans bank accounts are dry and they become desperate to sell oil again.. they will have no choice but to open the straits..


What he did not speak to was:

Leaving NATO

Use of ground troops

Any diplomatic plan or endgame for ending the conflict

 

[deewayne2003]

EU does not have a Military, therefore EU cannot deliver Military aid.

It is the same with "America". There is no "American military", only individual countries in America such as Canada, Brazil, Mexico, Uruguay, US, Argentina etc. each of which have their own militarizes and therefore can choose to deliver military aid.

If you want to know the sum of military aid delivered by countries who happen to be a member of the EU, or by countries who are located in Europe you have to to the sum yourself, the data is in the graph.

Here is the graph from KJE81s post, repeated for convenience:
View attachment 756850

First of all I never said America I said U.S..... You sound like the Spanish speakers from 3rd world central America who say "You are no Americano, you is Norte Americano!"

To which I say - Canada & Mexico are both Norte Americano so how do you differentiate and watch the puzzled look come over their face.

Further, I notice you didn't take the time total them all up yourself..... I think that is very telling!

You should be thanking Trump for forcing NATO nations to actually participate as they are required to per the treaty; something that Europe has neglected for decades.

 

[Tanks]

The conflict will be over in "2-3 more weeks"...

Reminds me of the line from the movie "Money Pit"