Politics

[RLD]

"Carrying a gun" is a "God given right" because the right is actually the ability to protect yourself.

If "Healthcare" is a right, then every doctor and nurse is a slave.

I must have missed the biblical reference that comes from.

However I can think of a couple of pretty conservative guys who supported access to medicine for all:

"National compulsory insurance for all classes for all purposes from the cradle to the grave."

or

“We’re going to have insurance for everybody. There was a philosophy in some circles that if you can’t pay for it, you don’t get it. That’s not going to happen with us.”

And if say "voting" is a right, does that make every poll worker a slave? Or does it just make them someone who chose to work in a field where different obligations apply? Are public defenders "slaves" because people have a right to representation in criminal court? Are the Canadian doctors who work in fields that are not government covered "free" and those who work in hospitals "slaves"?

The whole "slave" thing is just kind of a hyperbolic argument.

Interestingly I think this is the first time I think I have quoted Trump and Churchill together.

 

[WAB]

Exactly, society could use a whole lot more do unto others

Agreed, but NOT by the government! Their mandate should not include social programs!

 

[SaintPanzer]

This is not entirely true. The system is funded nationally, but managed provincially. In my province, Ontario, there are a number of ways to get private (sometimes insured, sometimes not) medical treatment for all sorts of issues. Personally I have used private health care from time to time, including the Cleveland Clinic's facilities in Toronto. We also have some private hospitals like Shouldice.

Trips to Buffalo are often to get MRI's, or other types of advanced imaging which do have long waiting lists in Ontario.

I think we are saying the same thing. It's difficult to get all the information remotely. This is just one site I researched: https://www.sunlife.ca/en/health/personal-health-insurance/

Note the bullet:

• You don’t want to pay out-of-pocket for various health expenses, which aren’t fully covered (or covered at all) by the government or your employer’s workplace plan

So if the government says they cover it, it's not insurable. That's not the same thing as other places mentioned.

As far as advanced imaging/MRIs, I'm not sure I understand. If the government will cover the MRI, but there's a long waiting list, so you go to another country to add to their medical demand, then the "government provided care" isn't really providing the care? What happens if the neighboring system suddenly becomes overwhelmed? Then who is providing? And, by extension, wouldn't it just be easiest to say "go there to get care" for everything beyond aspirin? That doesn't strike me as a good system at all.

 

[mdwest]

Healthcare is not a right?! Carrying a gun is a god given right, but access to competent medical care isn’t?

Per the US Constitution, the right to bear arms is protected BY GOD (the government simply cant infringe on that right)..

access to medical care is not a protected right.. it is a privilege in the US.. which is by the way the same standard in Canada..

The Canadian Constitution doesnt address healthcare.. it merely establishes divisions of power that give the provinces jurisdiction over health services.. that was set in 1867 with your Constitution Act...

It wasnt until 1984.. almost 120 years later.. that Canada passed the Canada Health Act.. which still does not establish health care as a right.. it only sets national standards for health care that the provinces have to follow if they want federal dollars allocated toward the provincial healthcare system..

 

[RLD]

But when you say healthcare is a right, that means if I'm feeling under the weather, I should be able to rouse my doctor at midnight and insist he treat me. Not "go to the hospital open 24 hours), I have a RIGHT to treatment. At any time, at no price. That's what a right means. Not "give me the opportunity for something", but there on demand.

But that is just arguing the absurd right? No country in the world, even where healthcare is guaranteed in the constitution works like that.

All rights in a democracy, literally all of them, have limits. Why do you think a "right" to healthcare would be any different?

Like voting for instance. You have a right to "the franchise" but you can't exercise it whenever you want "at any time". You can only exercise it in a prescribed manner. In countries with universal healthcare the same approach applies.

 

[RLD]

I think we are saying the same thing. It's difficult to get all the information remotely. This is just one site I researched: https://www.sunlife.ca/en/health/personal-health-insurance/

Note the bullet:

• You don’t want to pay out-of-pocket for various health expenses, which aren’t fully covered (or covered at all) by the government or your employer’s workplace plan

So if the government says they cover it, it's not insurable. That's not the same thing as other places mentioned.

As far as advanced imaging/MRIs, I'm not sure I understand. If the government will cover the MRI, but there's a long waiting list, so you go to another country to add to their medical demand, then the "government provided care" isn't really providing the care? What happens if the neighboring system suddenly becomes overwhelmed? Then who is providing? And, by extension, wouldn't it just be easiest to say "go there to get care" for everything beyond aspirin? That doesn't strike me as a good system at all.

That just means an federal insurer will not write you a policy for it. But I can, and have, taken out my credit card and gone to the Cleveland Clinic, or Medcan or other places and pay for that covered service out of my pocket.

There are also ways to spend money in Ontario to legally skip the line and get much faster service on many insured services.

You are right on the advanced imaging question. We should be investing more in the infrastructure to provide that here. It is an area that could use significant improvement.

 

[SaintPanzer]

I must have missed the biblical reference that comes from.

However I can think of a couple of pretty conservative guys who supported access to medicine for all:

"National compulsory insurance for all classes for all purposes from the cradle to the grave."

or

“We’re going to have insurance for everybody. There was a philosophy in some circles that if you can’t pay for it, you don’t get it. That’s not going to happen with us.”

And if say "voting" is a right, does that make every poll worker a slave? Or does it just make them someone who chose to work in a field where different obligations apply? Are public defenders "slaves" because people have a right to representation in criminal court? Are the Canadian doctors who work in fields that are not government covered "free" and those who work in hospitals "slaves"?

The whole "slave" thing is just kind of a hyperbolic argument.

Interestingly I think this is the first time I think I have quoted Trump and Churchill together.

The "God given right" was a quote from a previous post. That's why I used quotation marks.

I will let others more qualified to cite scripture. But I believe the right to defend oneself is part of just being human. Just like I have the right to speak my mind. Or the right to practice the religion I choose.

"National Compulsory Insurance..." Does the compulsory part give a clue at all?

Yes, of course ACCESS to healthcare. But that's not the same thing as government provided, is it?

Voting a right? Don't we have all kinds of laws describing who can vote?

The thing that is hardest to understand, the most difficult thing to explain to my Canadian classmates was this:

The Constitution of the United States, to include the amendments GRANTS NO RIGHTS. The rights are assumed to exist. The Constitution provides LIMITS to what Congress can do.

The example I provided to my Canadian classmates was always this:

First Amendment to the Constitution:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms:

Guarantee of Rights and Freedoms​

Fundamental Freedoms​

Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

• (a) freedom of conscience and religion;
• (b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
• (c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
• (d) freedom of association.

Do you see how one says "You have", while the other says "The Government cannot take away".

It's the understanding it from that point of view that makes all the difference. Is the Government giving me something? Or am I preventing the Government from taking something?

 

[WAB]

But that is just arguing the absurd right? No country in the world, even where healthcare is guaranteed in the constitution works like that.

All rights in a democracy, literally all of them, have limits. Why do you think a "right" to healthcare would be any different?

Like voting for instance. You have a right to "the franchise" but you can't exercise it whenever you want "at any time". You can only exercise it in a prescribed manner. In countries with universal healthcare the same approach applies.

Absolutely not! The second amendment does not grant the right to bear arms, it states that the right to keep and bear arms is a God given right that cannot be infringed by the government.

By definition, anything granted by the government is a privilege, not a right. As such it can be revoked. A right is
Inherent and cannot be granted or revoked.

Words and their definitions matter.

 

[deewayne2003]

Nowhere have I once stated that doctors aren’t to be paid for their services. Try again

And also I’ve never advocated for illegals

Dictating what someone can be paid for their services is the same as not paying them and again is the lynch pin of socialist systems..... Just ask the doctors from Cuba that are exported to Venezuela in exchange for oil while their families are held in captivity on the island.

You never did advocate for illegals...... I'm saying that health care is so readily available in the USA that even illegals access it on a regular basis; of course that's in contrast to the average Canadian's belief that poor people in the USA are held at gunpoint in the hospital parking lots until they die.

 

[Aaron N]

Agreed, but NOT by the government! Their mandate should not include social programs!

Same goes for corporate welfare too

 

[Rocked and Loaded]

Healthcare is not a right?! Carrying a gun is a god given right, but access to competent medical care isn’t?

Why would it be? Healthcare is a combination of labor, expertise, and material. How can you have a right to someone else’s expert labor or materials/equipment?

Things aren’t rights just because they’re good. There has to be a deeper philosophical underpinning to it or everything becomes a right like those who think there’s a human right to internet access.

Most things that are considered rights are based of personal rights and protection from the government preventing you from exercising them. You have a right to speak without gov arresting you for it hit you don’t have a right to someone else’s platform.

I could see a right to not have the gov interfere with your medical decisions but I don’t see a right to have the gov pay for it (and by extension force everyone else to pay for it through taxation).

Your rights to life, liberty, and property are more about what gov shouldn’t take from you rather than what they can give you.

 

[Rocked and Loaded]

Same goes for corporate welfare too

I don’t think anyone here has advocated for that.

In fact, I think a lot of us would be happy to see that severely curtailed.

 

[Scott CWO]

Nowhere have I once stated that doctors aren’t to be paid for their services. Try again

And also I’ve never advocated for illegals

But you’re just fine with the rest of us paying the doctor on behalf of someone else?

 

[Scott CWO]

But if you were guiding in the mountains, and came across a hiker with a broken arm, you’d help splint or sling it wouldn’t you? Because A. You’re an honourable gentleman (and I do mean that) and B. It’s the, wait for it, RIGHT thing to do. So if it’s the right thing to do on an individual level, why does that not scale up to a societal level?

Like I said before, in the case of an accident, anyone can go to a hospital emergency room and get treatment. That is a completely different thing than all the other applications of “health care.”

The RIGHT thing to do is to get a job and be a responsible member of society and pay your own way.

 

[Scott CWO]

How are people getting paid wages slaves?

Paid by who? There are no freebies.

 

[Scott CWO]

That just means an federal insurer will not write you a policy for it. But I can, and have, taken out my credit card and gone to the Cleveland Clinic, or Medcan or other places and pay for that covered service out of my pocket.

There are also ways to spend money in Ontario to legally skip the line and get much faster service on many insured services.

You are right on the advanced imaging question. We should be investing more in the infrastructure to provide that here. It is an area that could use significant improvement.

Good luck with that.

 

[Scott CWO]

Why would it be? Healthcare is a combination of labor, expertise, and material. How can you have a right to someone else’s expert labor or materials/equipment?

Things aren’t rights just because they’re good. There has to be a deeper philosophical underpinning to it or everything becomes a right like those who think there’s a human right to internet access.

Most things that are considered rights are based of personal rights and protection from the government preventing you from exercising them. You have a right to speak without gov arresting you for it hit you don’t have a right to someone else’s platform.

I could see a right to not have the gov interfere with your medical decisions but I don’t see a right to have the gov pay for it (and by extension force everyone else to pay for it through taxation).

Your rights to life, liberty, and property are more about what gov shouldn’t take from you rather than what they can give you.

Exactly! The libs just don’t get it.

 

[spike.t]

Russia is seeking to expand its military presence in Africa with another paramilitary group | CNN https://edition.cnn.com/2025/08/25/africa/russia-africa-corps-wagner-intl-cmd

 

[spike.t]

South African banks fear cutoff from international payments system – MyBroadband https://share.google/tah2wA5C4cW4Y2jj5

 

[spike.t]

OK so when we applied for the madams usa visa (last one expired end of last year,) so just over 3 years ago and just over 6 years ago the wait times for the interview at the embassy in lusaka were around 7 days max......not looking good...