PHASA distances itself from Captive-bred Lion Hunting

BRICKBURN

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...................As we both know some guys like it some dont but how any hunter thinks they are helping by taking the side the antis are on is something I dont understand. ............

These all or nothing statements are not conducive to discussion, discourse or conversation.
There are no anti hunters in this discussion.

Are you taking the side of the Anti's by suggesting that "we clean up our own house" ?
If I were to use the same black and white processes, your comment sounds critical of hunting to me and is siding with the Anti's.

To take it even further:

Why did you let your son pursue the lion?
Why not just shoot it in a cage and save the time and expense?
I can only assume that you would not find that acceptable.
If someone were to call that (shooting in a cage) "hunting" would you have to side with them?
Aren't they "hunters"?

I don't think so. I doubt you do either.

But within a broad definition in my local legislation shooting at or attempting to kill it is hunting.
“hunt” means, subject to subsection (6), with reference to a subject animal,
  1. (i) shoot at, harass or worry,
  2. (ii) chase, pursue, follow after or on the trail of, search for, flush, stalk or lie in wait for,
  3. (iii) capture or wilfully injure or kill,
  4. (iv) attempt to capture, injure or kill, or
  5. (v) assist another person to hunt in a manner specified in subclause (i), (ii), (iii) or (iv) while that other person is so hunting;

Where is the line?
Where is it for the majority of people?

.............. We need to clean up are own house and the antis should not be helping with the clean up unless you want them coming after more hunting rights. .........

Some facts:
The MAJORITY of people in your country DO NOT HUNT.
That means even if every hunter in every jurisdiction voted one way, we would still lose.
So, Politically, we had better get started with the cleaning.

Apparently, the MAJORITY (90%) of the "raised lions" are taken by citizens of the USA.
The SAPA folks appear to know that the USFWS can kill their industry in one fell swoop; Ban Lion imports.


How would you like to convince the rest of your fellow countrymen (never mind hunters) to support raised lion hunting?


If you dont like raised lions being hunted or want the system fixed help fix it. .....................

PHASA is. They just made a statement that says they do not support the status quo. That is the start of the house cleaning.

The point Jaco made, that I just reiterated.
Point out the (some) solutions.
Make some suggestions.
 

billc

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These all or nothing statements are not conducive to discussion, discourse or conversation.
There are no anti hunters in this discussion.

Dont recall saying there was but seems to be guys taking there side on this subject. I guess each person can decide how to read the choices each person is making.

Are you taking the side of the Anti's by suggesting that "we clean up our own house" ?
If I were to use the same black and white processes, your comment sounds critical of hunting to me and is siding with the Anti's.


Not taking sides but saying I realize the system is not perfect. I would rather we clean are own house they let them HAVE ANY SAY ON MY HUNTING RIGHTS. Short of poaching I would rather not say anything that hurts hunting rights. May not be perfect but sometimes saying nothing is best. You think ever anti groups believes the same thing. Dont recall them bad mouthing each other because they know it would hurt them long term.


To take it even further
:

Why did you let your son pursue the lion?
Why not just shoot it in a cage and save the time and expense?
I can only assume that you would not find that acceptable.
If someone were to call that (shooting in a cage) "hunting" would you have to side with them?
Aren't they "hunters"?


I let him hunt a lion because I wanted him to and a raised lion is what I could afford.To me hunting that lion was find the place I could afford and in the most sporting way we could.
Hunting a lion in a cage would not be for me and I would not like it. But I sure as hell would not broadcast it to the world to help the anti's cause. Again sometime saying nothing is better.Not a great answer but the truth as I dont feel I should tell anyone what to do with an animal they bought. That lion in a cage be any different then the idea dennis gave you of buying two egyptian geese to mount. You think that guy was going to hunt those geese or just kill them to be mounted. I realize some guys look at a lion as special but if we believe all we like to talk about on why we hunt do the geese mean less in the big picture because we rate a lion as a better trophy.

I don't think so. I doubt you do either.

But within a broad definition in my local legislation shooting at or attempting to kill it is hunting.
“hunt” means, subject to subsection (6), with reference to a subject animal,
  1. (i) shoot at, harass or worry,
  2. (ii) chase, pursue, follow after or on the trail of, search for, flush, stalk or lie in wait for,
  3. (iii) capture or wilfully injure or kill,
  4. (iv) attempt to capture, injure or kill, or
  5. (v) assist another person to hunt in a manner specified in subclause (i), (ii), (iii) or (iv) while that other person is so hunting;

Where is the line?

The line is what the laws say it is to me and what my beliefs are to me. I dont want to tell ever guy what that is or is not.

Where is it for the majority of people?

Dont know and pretty safe to say no one really does.



Some facts:
The MAJORITY of people in your country DO NOT HUNT.
That means even if every hunter in every jurisdiction voted one way, we would still lose.
So, Politically, we had better get started with the cleaning.

That is if you believe everyone who does not hunt would vote to ban hunting. Must people would not really care either way and we just believe they will take the anti's side. Again after talking to many non hunters about my sons lion hunt and telling them it was raised to hunt must said nothing that was bad. Must thought it still must have been a hunt that my son enjoyed. The people who did not like it did not like hunting already. Same with my giraffe which had more people then the lion feeling sad. Till I told them why he was hunted and how he was over 20 years old and would die soon. That he was not helping the rest of the giraffe on the ranch unless he was hunted. After talking and not being ashamed to tell them why I hunt and the value of it must have a different idea now. In fact I have turned more then a few anti hunters in to being ok with hunting after giving them facts and the truth on why I hunt anyway.

Apparently, the MAJORITY (90%) of the "raised lions" are taken by citizens of the USA.
The SAPA folks appear to know that the USFWS can kill their industry in one fell swoop; Ban Lion imports.


How would you like to convince the rest of your fellow countrymen (never mind hunters) to support raised lion hunting?

I dont need to make everyone like it but sure would be nice if all hunters could back there fellow hunters and stop trying to pass judgement on some because they hunt different then themselves. Lets face it we dont need to convince the masses only the ones who have the power to stop hunting. Dont need to make it a big public debate but take the fight to the people trying to stop hunting.




PHASA is. They just made a statement that says they do not support the status quo. That is the start of the house cleaning.

So I should trust a group were more members did not care to show up about the subject they voted on . I guess I am the only one who sees it as a problem when enough of them dont care to show for a vote. Maybe because like most groups after time goes on they see the good old boy system take place so they just pull away but stay member just because. I am sure this group is so different they must that nothing fishy ever goes on and they run just perfect. They would never think to do what they think is best for them because there only worried about us clients and not what they put in there pockets after we pay them to hunt.

Phasa like any group fights for what will help them . Why did they fight to lift the air freight ban? I guess just because is was the right thing to do for us hunters right. I bet it had nothing to do with the business they were going to lose when us hunter stopped going because we could not get are trophies home. Am I glad they helped fight it you bet I am but I also know why they did it. So yes they have value to us hunters but in the end they are there because of us hunters. No hunters no phasa.


The point Jaco made, that I just reiterated.
Point out the (some) solutions.
Make some suggestions.

The solution back fellow hunters work on what we need to do to stop any country from banning any trophies. Stick together dont let them make us fight between each other because we think that hunter is wrong on what he things hunting is to him.

My ideas on what would work.

Let the lions out for 2 weeks min. before hunt starts.
5000 acres size min to be released on.
Have min. of maybe 2 or 3 arces for each lion to be raised on. no small cage.
Make each lion have a tax that goes to help the wildlife. Maybe like 500 to 1000 dollars per lion to help fight poaching any anything else that helps wildlife.


Dam I did the post wrong and the rest of my answer are in the quoted part. Maybe you can fix it or people can just click to expand the above if they care to read.
 

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For the record I did not pick out a lion from a book. Did not hunt the lion by chasing with the truck. So by those comments sounds like phasa should maybe start with the Ph and outfitters to clean up the mess it has. Seems like the lion is not the problem but the people doing the hunts. You dont think any buff have been hunted the same way but were is the outrage over that.

I do realize that there was more going on with the issue of raised lions before all this started. I can tell you I am not as stupid on how africa works as you may think. The fact is your trying to say all the stuff happening has no effect on this at all now and that is bs. The hammer is just hitting the nail harder now and it is a good time for anyone not for raised lions to step out now.

My comments are not only to you and I respect your right to not do raised lions hunts. Your not respecting my right to do so based on you dont think they are right now. As we both know some guys like it some dont but how any hunter thinks they are helping by taking the side the antis are on is something I dont understand. It would be like saying because I can't pay to hunt a elephant I dont care about the ivory ban. I have no dog in that fight but would support my fellow hunters in the fight to get that right back. We need to clean up are own house and the antis should not be helping with the clean up unless you want them coming after more hunting rights.

If you dont like raised lions being hunted or want the system fixed help fix it. Trying to stop it because you dont believe in it is were I have the problem.Again my comments are not only to you as I know you would like it fixed. Dont need to bash on hunters who are ok with it though.

Your last comment just shows how you dont want to have a conservation on a subject were you dont want to hear both sides. Thinking your always right does not make you right on all you say by the way. I have always enjoyed the chats we had at the shows but trust me I never read more into them then what they were. I am great at reading people and lets just say I read you spot on. No hard feeling on my end though.


Bill,

It is obvious that you are working hard on spelling, punctuation, sentence structure, new paragraphs when you change thoughts, etc. It makes reading and understanding what you are trying to communicate much easier. It is appreciated. (y)

Thank you.
 

KWALATA SAFARIS

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A meeting was held with LHLF (Limpopo hunters liaison forum) and SAPA,
And I must admit the guys are seriously working, we have been invited to to draw up criteria and both EXCO, SAPA and LHLF are meeting again.

Stan Burger (PHASA president) contacted myself and Dries Van Coller early this morning and we were notified that USFWS, has delayed they're decision until early Januarie.

My best always
 

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..............
Stan Burger (PHASA president) contacted myself and Dries Van Coller early this morning and we were notified that USFWS, has delayed they're decision until early Januarie.

My best always

That is a delay is auspicious. Nothing like cutting it fine.
 

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A meeting was held with LHLF (Limpopo hunters liaison forum) and SAPA,
And I must admit the guys are seriously working, we have been invited to to draw up criteria and both EXCO, SAPA and LHLF are meeting again.

Stan Burger (PHASA president) contacted myself and Dries Van Coller early this morning and we were notified that USFWS, has delayed they're decision until early Januarie.

My best always

Jaco, when will the second meeting be held?

Good news on the delay from USFWS. Much harder to reverse the decision once it's been made.
 

KWALATA SAFARIS

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Ma
Jaco, when will the second meeting be held?

Good news on the delay from USFWS. Much harder to reverse the decision once it's been made.
Marius
I will give you a heads up as soon as I have a date.
My best always
 

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Here is a press release by the organizers of Dortmund Show in regards to "canned Lion Hunts".


Here is the English translation of German text done by Google translate. Original German text below.

Press Release

Marketing of canned lions and Frankenstein-breeding on the Jagd & Hund not allowed

November 16, 2015, Dortmund (Landesjagdverband NRW, Westfalenhallen Dortmund GmbH). The launch bred lions in gates ("Farm-lions, captive bred lions") has nothing to do with the essence of hunting and adds to the reputation of hunting and hunters in the public serious damage. In this respect, such services do not match the Jagd & Hund Fair.

The same applies to the launch of artificially bred color variants and mutations of wild animals, which do not occur in the wild ("artificial breeding").

The Landesjagdverband NRW as a conceptual sponsor of Jagd & Hund Fair and the Westfalenhallen Dortmund GmbH as organizer dissociate from practices such as the launch of "captive bred lions" and "artificial breeding", because such behaviors with the ethical standards of the hunt not to are negotiable.

Then, the exhibition management has the safari supplier pointed in a coordinated with the Association of writing on the Jagd & Hund and you are encouraged not to offer such ethically questionable practices at the fair in 2016, if they are ever included in the portfolio of the issuer as part of a voluntary self-restraint ,

At the same time announced to examine the terms and conditions with respect to a change intensively to possible not to allow such offers in the future on the Jagd & Hund Fair.

Dortmund, November 16, 2015

Press Contacts:

Landesjagdverband Nordrhein-Westfalen e.V.
Andreas Schneider
Gabelsbergerstraße 2
44141 Dortmund
Tel.: 0231/2868-810
Fax: 0231/2868-888
E-Mail: aschneider@ljv-nrw.de

Westfalenhallen Dortmund GmbH
Dr. Andreas Weber
Marketing- und Unternehmenskommunikation
Telefon: +49 (0) 231 1204-514
Fax: +49 (0) 231 1204-724
Andreas.Weber@westfalenhallen.de



Original German text.

Presse Information

Vermarktung von Gatterlöwen und Frankenstein-Zuchten auf der Jagd & Hund nicht erwünscht

16. November 2015, Dortmund (Landesjagdverband NRW, Westfalenhallen Dortmund GmbH). Der Abschuss gezüchteter Löwen in Gattern („Farm-Löwen, captive bred lions“) hat mit dem Wesen der Jagd nichts zu tun und fügt dem Ansehen von Jagd und Jägern in der Öffentlichkeit schweren Schaden zu. Insofern passen solche Angebote auch nicht zur Messe Jagd & Hund.

Gleiches gilt für den Abschuss künstlich gezüchteter Farbvarianten und -mutationen von Wildtieren, die in freier Wildbahn überhaupt nicht vorkommen („artificial breeding“).

Der Landesjagdverband NRW als ideeller Träger der Messe Jagd & Hund und die Westfalenhallen Dortmund GmbH als Veranstalter distanzieren sich ausdrücklich von Praktiken wie dem Abschuss von „captive bred lions“ und „artificial breeding“, weil solche Handlungsweisen mit dem ethischen Anspruch an die Jagd nicht zu vereinbaren sind.

Darauf hat die Messeleitung in einem mit dem Verband abgestimmten Schreiben die Jagdreiseanbieter auf der Jagd & Hund hingewiesen und íhnen nahe gelegt, solche ethisch fragwürdigen Praktiken auf der Messe 2016, falls sie überhaupt im Portfolio der Ausstellers enthalten sind, im Rahmen einer freiwilligen Selbstbeschränkung nicht anzubieten.

Zugleich wird angekündigt, die Teilnahmebedingungen im Hinblick auf eine Änderung intensiv zu prüfen, um derartige Angebote für die Zukunft auf der Messe Jagd & Hund möglichst nicht mehr zuzulassen.

Dortmund, 16. November 2015

Presse kontakte:

Landesjagdverband Nordrhein-Westfalen e.V.
Andreas Schneider
Gabelsbergerstraße 2
44141 Dortmund
Tel.: 0231/2868-810
Fax: 0231/2868-888
E-Mail: aschneider@ljv-nrw.de

Westfalenhallen Dortmund GmbH
Dr. Andreas Weber
Marketing- und Unternehmenskommunikation
Telefon: +49 (0) 231 1204-514
Fax: +49 (0) 231 1204-724
Andreas.Weber@westfalenhallen.de
 

BRICKBURN

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images.jpeg
 

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Just remember we will be at the end of that line of domino's as we get walked over in this one fight. Next will be animals that are not native to the country that we hunt them in and so on.

Maybe time to remember how many stuck together when a show tried to ban assault rifles from being at a show. I dont own one but believe in the rights of those who do. That show is now run by the nra and better then ever but hunters and gun owners stuck together and won that battle.Could be time to stick together and stop letting those making money on the back of hunters make all the rules.
 
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billc

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Bill,

It is obvious that you are working hard on spelling, punctuation, sentence structure, new paragraphs when you change thoughts, etc. It makes reading and understanding what you are trying to communicate much easier. It is appreciated. (y)

Thank you.



I am trying my best. Paying the price for not doing better in school I guess.
 

BRICKBURN

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Just remember we will be at the end of that line of domino's as we get walked over in this one fight. Next will be animals that are not native to the country that we hunt them in and so on.

Maybe time to remember how many stuck together when a show tried to ban assault rifles for being at a show. I dont own one but believe in the rights of those who do. That show is now run by the nra and better then ever but hunters and gun owners stuck together and won that battle.Could be time to stick together and stop letting those making money on the back of hunters make all the rules.

Good point about it being a SHOW, not a government. Easy to vote with your dollars on this one.
 

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I can see where you guys are going and maybe I contributed to being off the thread. I'm not sure what the solution is? Any time you increase the size of the area being hunted, the time release period and how the animals are raised before being released it increases the price of doing business. And I'm sure no one wants to lose any $$$$$. Maybe hunting ends because of the money or lack of cooperation. Heck there are plenty of people in the USA that would love to burn every gun. I wish the right thing could be done but I know that is wishful thinking.

Best of luck, I hope RSA can get the fenced lion issue figured out.
 

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I'm a bit behind in my reading (and mail from South Africa to Canada seems to take forever), but was just starting the Spring 2016 issue of African Hunting Gazette. Richard Lendrum, the Publishing Editor, has an editorial entitled "A crisis looming . . ." which addresses the issue of the PHASA decision. I can't find it online, or would reproduce it here, but let's just say that he makes some very good points (particularly because they agree with my thoughts exactly!):

1. PHASA has put itself in a box by saying any member participating in these hunts will be expelled. We know that lion hunting is a material part of the hunting revenue in South Africa (how many springbok equals one lion?). He says "With many, many members of PHASA involved in and offering "farmed" lion hunting, they will never simply walk away from what is probably the majority of their clients' wants, and possibly is the major part of their income stream. So they have two choices. Do it secretly or leave PHASA." An interesting dilemma.

2. Richard notes that Dallas Safari Club accepts only registered members of PHASA on their exhibition floor. So DSC will either have to kick out all their exhibitors from South Africa who offer these hunts or they will have to relax the rule. Or PHASA will change. Or these hunts will be offered as "wild" hunts, qs some already are, but we all know they aren't really. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

Does anyone know if any South African lion hunts were being offered this year at the Dallas show?

3. Denmark has banned the offering of these hunts in Denmark (like the German hunting show). So this gives rise to my favourite topic, which I raised earlier in this thread. What the heck is the difference between captive bred lion hunting and captive bred buffalo, nyala or kudu (or whitetail deer) hunting? I mean from an ethical or moral perspective, there can't be any difference, can there?

4. His last point and his most important, is that hunters have to stop attacking each other, and start to focus on the external threats. Amen.
 

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