PHASA distances itself from Captive-bred Lion Hunting

BRICKBURN

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KWALATA SAFARIS

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PHASA's resolution:
This position paper replaces any previous versions

PHASA has reversed its 2013 position on the hunting of captive-bred lions and will no longer tolerate this form of hunting. This decision was taken at the association’s 2015 annual general meeting (AGM), where the majority of PHASA members voted to take a stand against the practice.

The official resolution adopted reads as follows:
At the 38th Annual General Meeting of the Professional Hunters Association of South Africa the majority of members present voted to distance the association from captive-bred lion hunting until such time as the South African Predator Association could prove the conservation value of this practice to both PHASA and the International Union for Conservation of Nature.

The above decision is effective immediately and is binding on all PHASA members. If any evidence arises implicating a PHASA member as having participated in the hunting or marketing of a captive-bred lion, such member will be subjected to PHASA’s internal disciplinary process, which will include expulsion if found guilty.

My best always
 

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In the court of public opinion we will lose the battle for pen raised lions. We might delay the inevitable but I believe it will happen. As far as pricing for wild or captive lions there is enough people with enough money to pay whatever the price is. Many like my self will be out of the running. No different than with Rhino, Trophy elephant and wild lions now.

What will stop ALL lion hunting is countries banning import or trophies no matter what the cost.

We better look to the next battle and prepare. What about breeding color variants? What about places that have only males of a species and no females, just stock for hunting?

I have always hunted and always will. The anti's cannot comprehend why we hunt and have no interest in doing so. Conservation, healthy meat for both rural and urban populations might be the key to keep hunting alive for the next generation. Bravado and bluster will not win the war for hunters.

My children and grandchildren hunt. I hope they can continue for our great grandchildren. Other wise all the animals will be in parks or dead.
 

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Well PHASA and NAPHA picked a bun fight with their fellow hunters in shouting down hunting with dogs - those organisations hurt dedicated operators big time so my loyalties are zero for them. No apologies.

Roy, I have seen hound hunting come under fire here in the US quite a bit. For the record, I have done bear hunts with hounds and enjoyed it. I don't hunt with hounds, because I don't have the spot to run and I can't get the dogs the necessary work to keep them in shape. However, when they were trying to ban it in California (never hunted there), I was sticking up for the hound hunters and trying to stop the ban, unfortunately we all failed and I think this is because many hunters failed to rally around the other hunters. So I feel you pain with that one, and hope other realize the sport of hunting with hounds.

This is my biggest concern with what PHASA has done. As quoted from Jaco's post above.

PHASA's resolution:

The official resolution adopted reads as follows:
At the 38th Annual General Meeting of the Professional Hunters Association of South Africa the majority of members present voted to distance the association from captive-bred lion hunting until such time as the South African Predator Association could prove the conservation value of this practice to both PHASA and the International Union for Conservation of Nature.

The above decision is effective immediately and is binding on all PHASA members. If any evidence arises implicating a PHASA member as having participated in the hunting or marketing of a captive-bred lion, such member will be subjected to PHASA’s internal disciplinary process, which will include expulsion if found guilty.

My best always

I wish their was a more definitely answer or at least had members discuss what determines "conservation" would a 20% levy on the trophy fee work? To me, and I will admit I am outsider, what needs to be done for conservation, many of the solutions we purpose are making it a better "hunt" (such as being release for a longer period of time, larger areas, etc) but don't necessary address the conservation aspect head on.

My other concern is if operators are pushed out of PHASA does this push captive breed hunting to go further underground with less regulation and then has the potential to give all hunters an even bigger black eye.

My rule at work is never bring up a problem unless you have solution, the solution can be 100% wrong but at least steps are being taken to address the problem. My understanding of the problem is two fold, the ethics and fairness of the hunt, and the value to conservation. Are we moving more to larger areas, longer release time and then a 20% tax or something similar that goes to conservation, does this address the heart of the problem and start to get more members on board? Would this meet the needs to prevent an import ban in places such as the UK? I honestly have no idea but I would like to see more discussion on addressing the issue then is it right or wrong. Just my 2 cents.
 

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I grabbed this from the SAPA site.

It was interesting to find a "Conservation Fund" page on the SAPA site. It is EMPTY.

The "Industry role players" (Breeders)- are forwarding Norms and Standards to the DAFF - Agriculture Department. (Not to MET - the folks in charge of hunting.)
Focus: release periods and human cub contact.

No wonder PHASA and SAPA bump heads.

http://sapredators.co.za/news.htm


MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS CONVENES STAKEHOLDER ENGAGEMENT TO ADDRESS ISSUES AROUND LION BREEDING AND HUNTING

17 JULY 2015


The Minister of Environmental Affairs, Mrs Edna Molewa has held a ground-breaking stakeholder engagement to discuss matters around lion management in South Africa; and in particular, breeding and hunting.


The Minister convened the engagement to address widespread and mounting public concern around the practice of so-called ‘canned hunting’ of lion.
The engagement is the first in what is to be a series of regular interactions between the Minister, departmental officials, and industry role-players on matters of mutual interest and concern.
Among those in attendance were representatives from lion breeders and the hunting industry. This included high-level representation from the Professional Hunters Association of South Africa (PHASA), the South African Predator Association (SAPA), the Confederation of Hunters Associations of South Africa (CHASA), the South African Predator Breeders Association (SAPBA) and the South African Hunters and Game Conservation Association (SAHGCA).


They engaged with the Minister as well as with the Free State, North West, Mpumalanga, Limpopo, Northern Cape, Gauteng and Eastern Cape provincial environmental departments, and representatives from Ezemvelo KZN Wildlife.


“This meeting is a reflection of the seriousness with which we as the department view allegations of criminality operating at the fringe of the legal, well-regulated breeding and hunting industries,” says Minister Edna Molewa, adding that the engagement would open channels of communication between all stakeholders on issues relating to lion management.
“South Africa is recognized worldwide for its conservation successes with regards to African lion, so much so that the International Union for the Conservation of Nature (IUCN) just recently hailed our advances in protecting the species,” says Minister Molewa.


On the matter of so-called ‘canned hunting’ of lion, all industry role-players present at the meeting conceded that ‘rogue elements’ were operating within the lion breeding and hunting industries, and that these needed to be rooted out.


Departmental representatives emphasized that in terms of the Threatened or Protected Species (TOPS) Regulations published in terms of the National Environmental Management Biodiversity Act (NEMBA) it is prohibited to hunt a lion:



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in a controlled environment (the minimum size of the hunting camp is not prescribed in the TOPS Regulations, as it will differ from area to area. However, the minimum size is prescribed in many of the provincial acts/ ordinances);

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while it is under the influence of a tranquiliser (the minimum time frame before a lion may be hunted after it has been darted, is not prescribed in the TOPS Regulations but is regulated in terms of some of the provincial acts/ ordinances);

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with certain methods, such as poison, snares, air guns, shot guns, or by luring it with scent or smell.



The organizations present agreed that the illegal hunting of lion was damaging the legal industry. They further also noted that negative publicity fuelled by misconceptions that ‘canned hunting’ took place in South Africa, was resulting in substantial financial losses for the local legal hunting industry.
However it was noted that provincial conservation authorities have taken a proactive stance with regards to rooting out illegality, adding that there were a number of cases before the courts relating to suspected illegal activities around lion breeding and hunting, particularly in the Free State province.


In a move to promote consistency across provinces with regards to hunting ordinances, provincial authorities (such as in the North West province) are considering developing norms and standards to further ensure compliance on lion hunts.


Industry role-players have similarly developed norms and standards which have been presented to the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries (DAFF) for consideration. These include clarifying issues around the release period (prior to a hunt) of captive bred lions; handling of cubs and the prohibition of contact with humans in facilities where lions are bred for hunting.


Participants agreed to the establishment of a forum to investigate a number of issues related to the lion industry in South Africa. Participants agreed, inter alia, to



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Working together to determine how to move forward as the Department of Environmental Affairs in cooperation with the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries (DAFF) in addressing and regulating the welfare of captive bred lions

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Supporting research relating to captive bred lions
“The Department is reviewing the comments received on the draft Biodiversity Management Plan for Lion that was published for public participation on 17 April 2015 and regulations are being reviewed and tightened to ensure that all gaps that exist in the lion breeding and hunting industries are closed. This stakeholder engagement, the first of many, will assist us, as the Department, in addressing areas of concern” Minister Molewa said.
Participants emphasized their commitment to promoting sustainable use as South Africa’s conservation model, noting further that responsible utilization of wildlife was a key driver of economic growth, skill development and job creation in the sector.
For media inquiries contact Albi Modise on 083 490 2871
ISSUED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF ENVIROMENTAL AFFAIRS
 

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This letter also copied from the SAPA site should help illustrate the perspective held by a "Lion Farmer"

Note the comment in red.

Has anyone seen these self sustaining prides that have been released and are now comparable to a free roaming pride?


A LION FARMER'S PLEA TO THE USFWS

CMP Safaris
P.O. BOX 4423
Tygervalley
Cape Town
7536

28 February 2014

Tel nr +27825500561

(Directors: Charles Robertson and Pieter van Zyl)


The Honorable Mr. Daniel Ashe
Director, United States Fish and Wildlife Services
Department of the Interior
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240



Dear Mr Ashe



On 27 January 2013, the organization that I am a member of, South African Predator Association filed a comment on the petition to list the African lion as “endangered” under the Endangered Species Act of 1973. Our comment is to be found under tracking number ljx-83ck-oamz. I, however still decided to take the time to compile these following notes addressed to you in a more personal capacity, being a South African Ranch Lion Farmer.

As mentioned I am a wild animal rancher, which in my country, South Africa, is known in short as a “Game Farmer”. I was born into, and grew up in a 7th - generation – farmers - family. I understand that according to USFWS current constitution it is a problem for you to exempt the “SA Ranch Lion” from the legislations and protocol that regulates the African Lion – which would have been the ideal scenario for us as Game Farmers - however, I would still like to try and give you better perspective on our situation by attempting to sketch a picture for you that illustrates our position as lion farmers today, comparing it to the South African Commercial Wildlife Trade and how it benefited South African natural wildlife itself over the past 20 years or so.

My dad, Dreyer van Zyl switched over from crop and cattle to game farming in 1987 and I myself finished school and became involved in this very same kind of business - game farming and hunting, since 1993.

About five years ago, a friend of mine, Charles Robertson and myself started exploring and began to involve ourselves in the business of lion farming and breeding lions for the commercial trophy hunting market. In the beginning, we found that the idea was somewhat strangely received by others, even people in the game industry, however to me, having been involved in game farming and game hunting business for over 20 years it was nothing new.

Our family farming business (see http://dreyervanzyl.com/index.php) has been breeding so many different kinds of Wild African Animals for different markets for decades now, whether it be for the market of breeding stock, trophy bulls, pregnant females, heifers and so on; all of those markets have one thing in common: the final products’ destination is in the commercial hunting sector in one form or the other.

Since 1987, the time when our family became directly involved in this trade, wild animal numbers have seriously increased all over South Africa. There were species that used to be so scarce that we as game farmers didn’t even really know them. Twenty years ago, very few South Africans actually were familiar with The Roan Antelope.

This is despite the fact that a couple of decades ago roans used to occur in SA naturally, but today, I myself and many other local farmers and hunters can testify to how wild animal numbers were stimulated through the commercial game farming industry; for example The Sable, Roan, Bontebok, Rietbok, Black Wildebeest and so on.

So to me, lion farming immediately made a lot of sense. Lions’ numbers are known to be diminishing across Africa but now we had an opportunity to breed with them and help multiply the population of African lions, like we have been doing for so many years with so many other African animal species, but I was shocked by how people reacted to us as lion ranchers accusing us of affecting the African Lion in a negative way. This statement never made any logical sense to me; on what grounds could someone argue that our trade will be a threat to the African Lion population where all we ever do is improve the condition of the species?

I can recall a time when many game farmers estimated a South African Sable population of around 1000. We are still very unsure of the accurate number today, but it will not surprise me if that number today is 20000 or more. Whichever way one looks at it, the fact is, there are plenty sable in SA today, no doubt!!

And this increase in their numbers happened while we as ranchers have been actively and aggressively marketing Sables for the commercial hunting industry for over 20 years on an annual basis.

Every year, we as an industry have been harvesting so many sable bulls and if you monitor it closely, like we do, without exception the next year there would just be more sable bulls for sale. That is why we are so proud in South Africa about our “sustainable utilization” principle that has been proving itself over and over again, year after year.

Lion population numbers across Africa might be on the decrease, most especially in countries such as Botswana and Zambia where hunting as a commercial industry receives a lot of resistance, however, take note of the fact that in our country this can never be the case as long as there is an existence right for the South African Ranch Lion Trade.

We have been breading, rearing, multiplying lion species’ numbers for a very long time. We have been improving the quality of the African Lion as a species for so many years - even decades and we would love to continue in doing so for many decades to come… I want to make an urgent appeal to you Sir, don’t allow the stopping of the import of lion product’s into the USA.

Ninety percent of our clients are American Citizens. If we were to loose USA citizens as our client foundation, our trade will surely close down. If our trade closes down, the South African Ranch Lion would spontaneously disappear. Think of what would be the fate of our 6000 or more lions in captivity if the demand for our product was to disappear. After 20 years in this industry, I still don’t know of Ranch Lion Farmers who would be able to afford to keep their lions and fend for them if they were to suddenly loose all commercial value.

Our point of view is that we as the Lion Farmers of SA do have a great contribution to make to the conservation of the African Lion and to say that the South African Ranch Lion Trade doesn’t contribute to the conservation of the African lion as a species is such a wrong and unfounded statement. We have been introducing ranch lions into the wild by the thousands over the last decade in South Africa. These lions hunt and feed naturally after their release within days and become completely self-sustainable in a matter of months, functioning completely independent, comparing to a free roaming pride anywhere in the wild.

Our booming game industry in SA, known as the Wildlife Ranching Industry (which is regulated by Wildlife Ranching South Africa) is a testimony to this; that apart from numbers of species that have dramatically improved over the last two decades as a result of our extremely successful game and hunt industry, the quality and size of the animals have also improved significantly. For example, roan bulls over 27’ was a really exotic item 10 years ago, where today, that size bulls would go through as “harvest” for hunting stock – few breeders currently would still consider a breeding roan bull under 30’.

Not too long ago, the Sable antelope was not even commonly known by wildlife enthusiasts in South Africa. Sable bulls measuring over 42’ were almost unheard of 15 years back. Since so many cattle and sheep farmers switched over or diversified into game breeding, this is no longer the case. Sable antelope are commonly found in South Africa now and today, many breeders use 47’ + bulls. There are even a couple of 50’ + around now, and the 42/43’ bulls would typically be hunted. Sable antelope as a species is on its way back to it’s former glory thankfully tot the Commercial Trophy hunting industry and the demand that it creates for breeders to improve it’s quality.

Exactly this is also the case with us as South African lion breeders in our current time today. You can kindly have a look at pictures taken in Tanzania and Zambia, or any area where free roaming lions are hunted in recent times.

(example pictures follows)

(examples of free roaming lion trophies taken)

leeutjie01.jpg
As you would be able to see from such pictures, even the large-mane - cats from these free roaming concessions cannot even closely compare with the quality animals that we from the Ranch Lion Industry can offer now, most especially when it comes to body frame and mane.



(Pictures of Ranch Lion Trophies taken from our hunting concession in the 2013 season follow)

leeutjie-02.jpg
The species is being benefitted, both in numbers and quality, purely as a result of the commercial trophy hunting demand that stimulates our industry.

I hope that what I have illustrated by writing this letter to you would go a long way in helping you as USFWS to get a more clear knowledge and perspective of our industry by hearing about it from ground level. As I clearly explained, we are not new at what we do, we have been busy with this way of ranching for many decades.

I am sure you would agree, Sir, that before making your decision about the fate of the South African Ranch Lion, the right thing to do would be to try and get the full perspective. In order to do that, one would need to take in consideration The SA Ranch Lion Trade’s long-term-track-record and if you can sincerely do that, it would be extremely difficult for a person to still argue that we as a trade could be harmful to the African Lion as a species.



Sincerely yours,

Pieter D. van Zyl
 

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BRICKBURN

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BRICKBURN

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..........
This vote could have been online from the PHASA website, where you need to enter your membership number to register your vote, in order for a more conclusive direction. Maybe it would be more overwhelmingly yes vote, I don't know, but 400 votes to decide on behalf of a few thousand members, hardly constitutes that "the members voted" IMHO.

As both you and Jaco noted, the meeting had a Quorum, but I understand the perception about the degree of input from the entire membership.
The reality of your industry being spread across a vast distance and time off being an issue perhaps PHASA may move this direction in the future ensure there is ZERO basis for grumbling.
 

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This letter also copied from the SAPA site should help illustrate the perspective held by a "Lion Farmer"

Note the comment in red.

Has anyone seen these self sustaining prides that have been released and are now comparable to a free roaming pride?


A LION FARMER'S PLEA TO THE USFWS

CMP Safaris
P.O. BOX 4423
Tygervalley
Cape Town
7536

28 February 2014

Tel nr +27825500561

(Directors: Charles Robertson and Pieter van Zyl)


The Honorable Mr. Daniel Ashe
Director, United States Fish and Wildlife Services
Department of the Interior
1849 C Street, NW
Washington, DC 20240



Dear Mr Ashe



On 27 January 2013, the organization that I am a member of, South African Predator Association filed a comment on the petition to list the African lion as “endangered” under the Endangered Species Act of 1973. Our comment is to be found under tracking number ljx-83ck-oamz. I, however still decided to take the time to compile these following notes addressed to you in a more personal capacity, being a South African Ranch Lion Farmer.

As mentioned I am a wild animal rancher, which in my country, South Africa, is known in short as a “Game Farmer”. I was born into, and grew up in a 7th - generation – farmers - family. I understand that according to USFWS current constitution it is a problem for you to exempt the “SA Ranch Lion” from the legislations and protocol that regulates the African Lion – which would have been the ideal scenario for us as Game Farmers - however, I would still like to try and give you better perspective on our situation by attempting to sketch a picture for you that illustrates our position as lion farmers today, comparing it to the South African Commercial Wildlife Trade and how it benefited South African natural wildlife itself over the past 20 years or so.

My dad, Dreyer van Zyl switched over from crop and cattle to game farming in 1987 and I myself finished school and became involved in this very same kind of business - game farming and hunting, since 1993.

About five years ago, a friend of mine, Charles Robertson and myself started exploring and began to involve ourselves in the business of lion farming and breeding lions for the commercial trophy hunting market. In the beginning, we found that the idea was somewhat strangely received by others, even people in the game industry, however to me, having been involved in game farming and game hunting business for over 20 years it was nothing new.

Our family farming business (see http://dreyervanzyl.com/index.php) has been breeding so many different kinds of Wild African Animals for different markets for decades now, whether it be for the market of breeding stock, trophy bulls, pregnant females, heifers and so on; all of those markets have one thing in common: the final products’ destination is in the commercial hunting sector in one form or the other.

Since 1987, the time when our family became directly involved in this trade, wild animal numbers have seriously increased all over South Africa. There were species that used to be so scarce that we as game farmers didn’t even really know them. Twenty years ago, very few South Africans actually were familiar with The Roan Antelope.

This is despite the fact that a couple of decades ago roans used to occur in SA naturally, but today, I myself and many other local farmers and hunters can testify to how wild animal numbers were stimulated through the commercial game farming industry; for example The Sable, Roan, Bontebok, Rietbok, Black Wildebeest and so on.

So to me, lion farming immediately made a lot of sense. Lions’ numbers are known to be diminishing across Africa but now we had an opportunity to breed with them and help multiply the population of African lions, like we have been doing for so many years with so many other African animal species, but I was shocked by how people reacted to us as lion ranchers accusing us of affecting the African Lion in a negative way. This statement never made any logical sense to me; on what grounds could someone argue that our trade will be a threat to the African Lion population where all we ever do is improve the condition of the species?

I can recall a time when many game farmers estimated a South African Sable population of around 1000. We are still very unsure of the accurate number today, but it will not surprise me if that number today is 20000 or more. Whichever way one looks at it, the fact is, there are plenty sable in SA today, no doubt!!

And this increase in their numbers happened while we as ranchers have been actively and aggressively marketing Sables for the commercial hunting industry for over 20 years on an annual basis.

Every year, we as an industry have been harvesting so many sable bulls and if you monitor it closely, like we do, without exception the next year there would just be more sable bulls for sale. That is why we are so proud in South Africa about our “sustainable utilization” principle that has been proving itself over and over again, year after year.

Lion population numbers across Africa might be on the decrease, most especially in countries such as Botswana and Zambia where hunting as a commercial industry receives a lot of resistance, however, take note of the fact that in our country this can never be the case as long as there is an existence right for the South African Ranch Lion Trade.

We have been breading, rearing, multiplying lion species’ numbers for a very long time. We have been improving the quality of the African Lion as a species for so many years - even decades and we would love to continue in doing so for many decades to come… I want to make an urgent appeal to you Sir, don’t allow the stopping of the import of lion product’s into the USA.

Ninety percent of our clients are American Citizens. If we were to loose USA citizens as our client foundation, our trade will surely close down. If our trade closes down, the South African Ranch Lion would spontaneously disappear. Think of what would be the fate of our 6000 or more lions in captivity if the demand for our product was to disappear. After 20 years in this industry, I still don’t know of Ranch Lion Farmers who would be able to afford to keep their lions and fend for them if they were to suddenly loose all commercial value.

Our point of view is that we as the Lion Farmers of SA do have a great contribution to make to the conservation of the African Lion and to say that the South African Ranch Lion Trade doesn’t contribute to the conservation of the African lion as a species is such a wrong and unfounded statement. We have been introducing ranch lions into the wild by the thousands over the last decade in South Africa. These lions hunt and feed naturally after their release within days and become completely self-sustainable in a matter of months, functioning completely independent, comparing to a free roaming pride anywhere in the wild.

Our booming game industry in SA, known as the Wildlife Ranching Industry (which is regulated by Wildlife Ranching South Africa) is a testimony to this; that apart from numbers of species that have dramatically improved over the last two decades as a result of our extremely successful game and hunt industry, the quality and size of the animals have also improved significantly. For example, roan bulls over 27’ was a really exotic item 10 years ago, where today, that size bulls would go through as “harvest” for hunting stock – few breeders currently would still consider a breeding roan bull under 30’.

Not too long ago, the Sable antelope was not even commonly known by wildlife enthusiasts in South Africa. Sable bulls measuring over 42’ were almost unheard of 15 years back. Since so many cattle and sheep farmers switched over or diversified into game breeding, this is no longer the case. Sable antelope are commonly found in South Africa now and today, many breeders use 47’ + bulls. There are even a couple of 50’ + around now, and the 42/43’ bulls would typically be hunted. Sable antelope as a species is on its way back to it’s former glory thankfully tot the Commercial Trophy hunting industry and the demand that it creates for breeders to improve it’s quality.

Exactly this is also the case with us as South African lion breeders in our current time today. You can kindly have a look at pictures taken in Tanzania and Zambia, or any area where free roaming lions are hunted in recent times.

(example pictures follows)

(examples of free roaming lion trophies taken)

leeutjie01.jpg
As you would be able to see from such pictures, even the large-mane - cats from these free roaming concessions cannot even closely compare with the quality animals that we from the Ranch Lion Industry can offer now, most especially when it comes to body frame and mane.



(Pictures of Ranch Lion Trophies taken from our hunting concession in the 2013 season follow)

leeutjie-02.jpg
The species is being benefitted, both in numbers and quality, purely as a result of the commercial trophy hunting demand that stimulates our industry.

I hope that what I have illustrated by writing this letter to you would go a long way in helping you as USFWS to get a more clear knowledge and perspective of our industry by hearing about it from ground level. As I clearly explained, we are not new at what we do, we have been busy with this way of ranching for many decades.

I am sure you would agree, Sir, that before making your decision about the fate of the South African Ranch Lion, the right thing to do would be to try and get the full perspective. In order to do that, one would need to take in consideration The SA Ranch Lion Trade’s long-term-track-record and if you can sincerely do that, it would be extremely difficult for a person to still argue that we as a trade could be harmful to the African Lion as a species.



Sincerely yours,

Pieter D. van Zyl


Seems like this letter would have hurt the lion breeders cause more than helping it with Dan Ashe. IMHO.



Our point of view is that we as the Lion Farmers of SA do have a great contribution to make to the conservation of the African Lion and to say that the South African Ranch Lion Trade doesn’t contribute to the conservation of the African lion as a species is such a wrong and unfounded statement. We have been introducing ranch lions into the wild by the thousands over the last decade in South Africa. These lions hunt and feed naturally after their release within days and become completely self-sustainable in a matter of months, functioning completely independent, comparing to a free roaming pride anywhere in the wild.

It would be interesting for Mr. van Zyl to point out where these thousands of lions are now. :whistle:
 

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Seems like this letter would have hurt the lion breeders cause more than helping it with Dan Ashe. IMHO.

I agree I do not think it would have done much with USFWS.
I think it is a very rational argument and it presents his view of Farming. I can see why the reactions of people to Lions being farmed would be confusing to him. He must view Lions as livestock just like Cattle.

The disconnect appears to be in the consumption of his product.

Adding the word wild does not make it true, ...........

What is "wild" in the authors mind?

I would like to see the evidence of the claims of self sustaining prides.
This may be part of the solution. If it is true.
 
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I agree I do not think it would have done much with USFWS.
I think it is a very rational argument and it presents his view of Farming. I can see why the reactions of people to Lions being farmed would be confusing to him. He must view Lions as livestock just like Cattle.

The disconnect appears to be in the consumption of his product..


I agree with van Zyl's view. I have no problem with a farmer growing/raising anything that is legal for the market. van Zyl just needs a third party to edit the letter prior to posting.:)


So if van Zyl and the South African hunting community get lion meat served in restaurants their problems will be solved.o_O I can see the new "Chick-fil-a" commercial with the cow saying, "eat more lion":D


What is "wild" in the authors mind?
I would like to see the evidence of the claims of self sustaining prides.
This may be part of the solution. If it is true.

I too would like to see the examples of the self sustaining prides. If it is true.

Fear it may be true for 72 or 96 hours.:sneaky:
 
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Jaco I was just wondering now if your company you work for is not doing raised lion hunts now. Still seeing them on the 2015 pricelist and sure have some nice pictures of some raised lions being taken last year.

Hope you guys who decide to sell out on the raise lions are ready when they come after what ever they what to save next. Cant wait to here all the sell outs begging for help when it is something they want help with. Can hear it already we cant give in to the antis we give them a inch they will take a mile. After seeing the way this is going with hunters taking the side of the antis over other hunters in will happen soon enough. Thinking that selling out other hunter will make it all better is just kidding yourself.

Anyone thinking this is more then just hoping the antis will back off after getting thrown a bone on raised lions is in for a big shock in the near future when they think they have won.

I still want to know why we as hunters must justify why we do anything. How about switching it up and asking the antis what animals they have helped and what they did that benefit the animals for the long term. Maybe instead of fighting with each other and picking what we like to hunt and how we like to hunt we get them to answer the tough questions.
Maybe it time to be honest and say we support the wildlife because we enjoy hunting the wildlife we help. Maybe it times we realize making money on wildlife is not a bad thing if it keeps it around and stop being such wimps on saying we like to hunt.
 

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Billc once again thanks for your input.
First of all, we live and learn.... PHASA had a task team that worked with SAPA, for two years, to try and work on a better system, for what is in many hunters opinions the sest pool of lion hunting in South Africa.

Your ignorance of my statement above does not make it untrue, in fact it justifies your impression that the decision was made because of anti hunting pressure, which is not the case.

If you are happy to shoot a cat that was released from a pen 96 hours before your arrival and to pick that specific lion from a picture line up to shoot, well Billc then that's up to you.
The 3 day lion shoot is hog wash, in my honest opinion, look at footage see how lionesses are chased down with truck until treed,,,, Billc that's horse shit!

So if I am labeled as a sell out because I am insisting on a better system and up until such a time I refuse to associate myself with lion hunting in SA.... Well then yes I am a sell out, but I have news for you.....

The majority of PHASA members were sell outs, NAPHA applauded us for our decision as members, APHA a applauded us for our decision,
ZPHGA applauded us for our decision,
WSF applauded us for our decision,
You criticizing myself does not bother me in the slightest.

I am not against lion hunting in SA I am against the rotten system it has become, PHASA tried to sort this with SAPA for two years, and no joy, members were requested by EXCO to draw up ideas for criteria, no joy.


Now there is real pressure, from the very outfitters that are using lion areas as well.

I will remain a PROUD PHASA member.

I would love to invite you to my booth to have a look at my new brochures, but then again I fear that our conversation will not go well, so I'd advise you to stay away.

Aahhh yes Billc myself and Reinhard are partners in Kwalata wilderness.
My best to you as always
 
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Billc once again thanks for your input.
First of all, we live and learn.... PHASA had a task team that worked with SAPA, for two years, to try and work on a better system, for what is in many hunters opinions the sest pool of lion hunting in South Africa.

Your ignorance of my statement above does not make it untrue, in fact it justifies your impression that the decision was made because of anti hunting pressure, which is not the case.

If you are happy to shoot a cat that was released from a pen 96 hours before your arrival and to pick that specific lion from a picture line up to shoot, well Billc then that's up to you.
The 3 day lion shoot is hog wash, in my honest opinion, look at footage see how lionesses are chased down with truck until treed,,,, Billc that's horse shit!

So if I am labeled as a sell out because I am insisting on a better system and up until such a time I refuse to associate myself with lion hunting in SA.... Well then yes I am a sell out, but I have news for you.....

The majority of PHASA members were sell outs, NAPHA applauded us for our decision as members, APHA a applauded us for our decision,
ZPHGA applauded us for our decision,
WSF applauded us for our decision,
You criticizing myself does not bother me in the slightest.




I am not against lion hunting in SA I am against the rotten system it has become, PHASA tried to sort this with SAPA for two years, and no joy...

Now there is real pressure... Do or die.

I would love to invite you to my booth to have a look at my new brochures, but then again I fear that our conversation will not go well, so I'd advise you to stay away.
My best to you as always


For the record I did not pick out a lion from a book. Did not hunt the lion by chasing with the truck. So by those comments sounds like phasa should maybe start with the Ph and outfitters to clean up the mess it has. Seems like the lion is not the problem but the people doing the hunts. You dont think any buff have been hunted the same way but were is the outrage over that.

I do realize that there was more going on with the issue of raised lions before all this started. I can tell you I am not as stupid on how africa works as you may think. The fact is your trying to say all the stuff happening has no effect on this at all now and that is bs. The hammer is just hitting the nail harder now and it is a good time for anyone not for raised lions to step out now.

My comments are not only to you and I respect your right to not do raised lions hunts. Your not respecting my right to do so based on you dont think they are right now. As we both know some guys like it some dont but how any hunter thinks they are helping by taking the side the antis are on is something I dont understand. It would be like saying because I can't pay to hunt a elephant I dont care about the ivory ban. I have no dog in that fight but would support my fellow hunters in the fight to get that right back. We need to clean up are own house and the antis should not be helping with the clean up unless you want them coming after more hunting rights.

If you dont like raised lions being hunted or want the system fixed help fix it. Trying to stop it because you dont believe in it is were I have the problem.Again my comments are not only to you as I know you would like it fixed. Dont need to bash on hunters who are ok with it though.

Your last comment just shows how you dont want to have a conservation on a subject were you dont want to hear both sides. Thinking your always right does not make you right on all you say by the way. I have always enjoyed the chats we had at the shows but trust me I never read more into them then what they were. I am great at reading people and lets just say I read you spot on. No hard feeling on my end though.
 

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No Billc my last comment shows my unwillingness to converse with you......

Many conversations were had on this thread read through it please we all conversed, your tone was attacking and disrespectful and I replied.

I still believe your missing it, PHASA HAD A TASK TEAM THAT WORKED WITH SAPA FOR TWO YEARS......

This thread was going to hell in a hand basket until myself and Marius swung it and together with positive input from PHOENIX PHIL, and many other members the trend had been turned until now.

My best to you as always
 

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..............
This thread was going to hell in a hand basket until myself and Marius swung it and together with positive input from PHOENIX PHIL, and many other members the trend had been turned until now.
......

....................

I agree that WE need a better game plan.

Anyone have some suggestions?

The solution focused replies started :


This is constructive:


Brickburn see if you could add points you too Marius and all...


In terms of breeding-
-human imprinting/domestication
-breeding conditions
-number of breeding operations

In terms of hunting
-wilding periods
-size of land
-limited CITES quota
-hunt duration
-hunting method

I will have a response from SAPA by January third and could shed some more light early next week.

We can thrash this around for now.

My best always
 

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Your correct my first comment were over the top at the start of the thread but I am not a big fan of a few deciding for many. Getting feed back from only your fellow Phasa members in my eyes was not doing what maybe best for me and all other hunters was my point.

I am not always the best and writing what I want to say and come across in the wrong way at times.
In my last two post show me were I am disrespectful and rude. Maybe stating points I think are right just like you are. It as shame some cant take comments for what they are. I can see your points and no the system is not perfect. I just think there is better ways to handle it then go after our own fellow hunters.

I know it is easy to believe the side we pick is always the right side but I am not dumb enough to think I am right about it all. I just refuse to not have my say because a few dont like it.
 

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............... but I am not a big fan of a few deciding for many. ......

That is the nature of a democracy Bill.
The meeting held by PHASA had a quorum and at that meeting a MAJORITY chose a new policy.
Majority Rule.
 

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That is the nature of a democracy Bill.
The meeting held by PHASA had a quorum and at that meeting a MAJORITY chose a new policy.
Majority Rule.


Yup know how the system works. But they dont run all the hunting done there. When and if lion hunting is outlawed then more groups will have had there say on the outcome. Then I can support it if it becomes laws. I would not like it but would be ok with it.

Just not a fan of any group who makes money on hunting but sides with anything the antis are after. Makes it worse when some have made money on what they fight to stop now. Things do change and to stop doing it is one thing but trying to stop it just does not seem right to me.

IT maybe somewhere on this post but maybe someone could post it again. How many paid and current phasa members are there. Then how many of them voted in the last vote and what the vote ended up being.
 

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Yup know how the system works. But they dont run all the hunting done there. When and if lion hunting is outlawed then more groups will have had there say on the outcome. Then I can support it if it becomes laws. I would not like it but would be ok with it.

Just not a fan of any group who makes money on hunting but sides with anything the antis are after. Makes it worse when some have made money on what they fight to stop now. Things do change and to stop doing it is one thing but trying to stop it just does not seem right to me.

IT maybe somewhere on this post but maybe someone could post it again. How many paid and current phasa members are there. Then how many of them voted in the last vote and what the vote ended up being.


They don't run all the hunting. But they are THE professional association in RSA.

If I recall, about 400 vs a few thousand members.
Only the folks who care to show up at the polls get to vote.
 

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