P14 DG rifles

[BlueFlyer]

9.3X64Br built on a P14 with a Timney trigger and Numrich Arms cock on openning

280AI on a P17, Timney trigger and Numrich Arms cock on opening

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The OP was inquiring about P14 not SMLE. Springfield 03A3 and P14 both have five cartridge capacity magazines. If the cock on opening rifle was subject to enough rapid fire, in theory fired cases could become sticky enough so that extracting them + added effort of cocking the striker while lifting the bolt supposedly required effort in excess of Enfield closing and cocking on a hot barrel. I have fired my Springfield with a hot barrel and never noticed cases hanging up. But nothing like rapid fire combat hot.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

The OP was inquiring about P14 not SMLE. Springfield 03A3 and P14 both have five cartridge capacity magazines. If the cock on opening rifle was subject to enough rapid fire, in theory fired cases could become sticky enough so that extracting them + added effort of cocking the striker while lifting the bolt supposedly required effort in excess of Enfield closing and cocking on a hot barrel. I have fired my Springfield with a hot barrel and never noticed cases hanging up. But nothing like rapid fire combat hot.

@Ontario Hunter
The M17 is actually a six shot mag but a lot of people don't realise this because it uses a 5 round stripper clip
Bob

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@Ontario Hunter
The M17 is actually a six shot mag but a lot of people don't realise this because it uses a 5 round stripper clip
Bob

1917 Enfield is 303 British rebarreled to 30-06 Springfield. 30-06 is significantly narrower cartridge so it would not surprise me if 1917 magazine held one more cartridge.

 

[Daryl S]

Thought the action rails were different, in that the P14 rails had a cut-out for the rim to climb up, and the model 1917's rails were straight like a Mauser. Now, Remington did re-barrel P14's with .308 barrels, their model 60, I think, chambered for the '06. I got one from my uncle when he passed. My rifle fed '06 perfectly, but it was a slow barrel, producing 150fps under all book loads used in it. The groove dia. was .308. I slugged it.
My buddy who has been shooting both P14's and M1917's for 30 years, looked at it and said "they" used a P14 action, showing me the cuttouts for the rim. He then said, the M1917's had straight rails.

 

[Ray B]

In addition to the cocking system, I wonder is the taper of the 303 case caused the cases to break the attachment with the chamber, making the 303 easier to pull out of the chamber, thus possibly faster.

 

[Daryl S]

That was the theory many, many years ago.
I do not believe it for a minute.
I have a rifle whose chamber has only. 005" taper each side. The base is .470" and the shoulder is .460". Extraction with loads that scared me (2,740fps w/270gr. tsx), was still normal, a 2 finger operation on a mark10 Mauser action. Same thing with 300gr. at 2,472fps, 2 fingers. Extraction couldn't be easier and pressures HAD to be 60,000psi or over. This, on an improved .30/06 case necked to .375.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Thought the action rails were different, in that the P14 rails had a cut-out for the rim to climb up, and the model 1917's rails were straight like a Mauser. Now, Remington did re-barrel P14's with .308 barrels, their model 60, I think, chambered for the '06. I got one from my uncle when he passed. My rifle fed '06 perfectly, but it was a slow barrel, producing 150fps under all book loads used in it. The groove dia. was .308. I slugged it.
My buddy who has been shooting both P14's and M1917's for 30 years, looked at it and said "they" used a P14 action, showing me the cuttouts for the rim. He then said, the M1917's had straight rails.

Just checked my British P14 and the rails are straight end to end. No cutout anywhere.

 

[Badboymelvin]

I think you are confused? For cock on closing "all the leverage" is used to shut the bolt, not extract the case. It requires pushing the rifle away from the shoulder and down to cock. For my 98 Mauser and O3A3 cock on closing rifles, all the physical effort to cock occurs when the rifle remains seated in the shoulder and the bolt is lifted. No lateral "leverage" in either direction is required to cock so the butt stays put in shoulder. The same amount of leverage is needed to withdraw the bolt and extract the case no matter which cocking design is employed.

I know the Brits always claimed their Enfield could be fired faster than Mauser or Springfield because of the cock on closing design but I do not see how that could be possible. Maybe something else in the design ... or maybe the test was rigged. Also, for Mauser all the effort to cock is made with an empty case in the chamber. For Enfield the considerable effort to cock not only pushes the gun away from the shoulder, but it's with a live round in the chamber. And Enfield only has a two position safety so the wrestling to cock not only involves a live round, but rifle must be off safe. Mauser and Springfield have 3-position safeties so in theory when the bolt is closing (relatively effortlessly), the safety could be engaged. Enfield design is okay but it's not the greatest. And that stuff about them firing faster because of the cocking feature is pure myth. Anyway, for a dangerous game rifle I certainly do not want to be pushing the rifle away from my body to cock it. I don't generally cock either Mauser or Springfield on my shoulder but I generally don't have to make followup shots to save my life. If I do have to cycle the gun on my shoulder, I don't want to be fighting with it to load and cock. Lift the bolt and it's cocked is preferable. After that it's effortless cycling while I'm getting back on target.

I agree, I don't like the cock on close either...
I love the Lee Enfields but I just wish they were cock-on-open.

Russ

 

[Daryl S]

Just checked my British P14 and the rails are straight end to end. No cutout anywhere.

Now that's weird.

 

[Daryl S]

Just checked my British P14 and the rails are straight end to end. No cutout anywhere.

Now that's weird. Is it a .30/06?

 

[dgr416]

I have Elmer Keiths p17 in 333 okh belted mag its smooth as glass .Charlie Oneal made it for Elmer in 1943 .The trigger is the best trigger ever .He took it to Alaska and got a huge moose and big coastal bear with it and Ten elk in Idaho .Charlie Oneal took it to Africa and took a bunch of plains game with it .I do wish it was cock on opening .I gotra get the recoil pad replaced if rotted and the scope mount with extended rings figured out .I am glad I have the dies for it .

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Now that's weird. Is it a .30/06?

No P14 is 303.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I have Elmer Keiths p17 in 333 okh belted mag its smooth as glass .Charlie Oneal made it for Elmer in 1943 .The trigger is the best trigger ever .He took it to Alaska and got a huge moose and big coastal bear with it and Ten elk in Idaho .Charlie Oneal took it to Africa and took a bunch of plains game with it .I do wish it was cock on opening .I gotra get the recoil pad replaced if rotted and the scope mount with extended rings figured out .I am glad I have the dies for it .

Interesting. I'd like to see pictures. My P14 has the worst trigger my finger has ever touched. Just awful. Be interested to see what Charlie did to fix the trigger.

 

[Sideshow]

I was talking to the fellow who said he didn't believe it. I thought the post was one above yours Sideshow. Looks like he may have deleted it.

Ohoo sorry didn’t see that. No worries. Just been looking at a few videos.
Have only seen one that cycled the action similar to they way Normand did it. Your description in post #40 is about spot on. We still have the rifle it was used by my uncle who put himself through university shooting deer in the Tararua ranges and selling them.

 

[ZG47]

Thought the action rails were different, in that the P14 rails had a cut-out for the rim to climb up, and the model 1917's rails were straight like a Mauser. Now, Remington did re-barrel P14's with .308 barrels, their model 60, I think, chambered for the '06. I got one from my uncle when he passed. My rifle fed '06 perfectly, but it was a slow barrel, producing 150fps under all book loads used in it. The groove dia. was .308. I slugged it.
My buddy who has been shooting both P14's and M1917's for 30 years, looked at it and said "they" used a P14 action, showing me the cuttouts for the rim. He then said, the M1917's had straight rails.

.308 groove diameter with a .300” bore diameter is actually undersized, when the barrel has equal width grooves and lands, as with my ZG47 rifle which is chambered for the .30-06. I had the same issue with factory and hand loaded flat-base bullets. That is why I now use Sierra 165 grain boat-tail bullets. The original P17 barrels have a groove diameter of .310”. The Springfield 1903A1 rifles used barrels with wide grooves and narrow lands. That design helped to keep the pressure down but resulted in a shorter accuracy life than those original P17 barrels, due to the quicker erosion of the narrower lands. Read Hatcher’s Notebook.

 

[Daryl S]

The barrel on mine was put on by Remington model 60 was POST war and although the action had seen a LOT of use, the barrel was brand new, except for the 2 boxes of Remington 220gr. RN's my uncle put through it.
Perhaps only the Eddystone P14's had the cut-outs in the action rails.
I rechambered it to .30/.338 thinking to get the vel. back with the larger case. This worked, giving book vel. for the .30/338, but was a bit of a pain in the posterior to make cases, so I just extended the chamber with the .300 Win. Mag reamer & re-chambered it to .300 Win Mag. The damn thing turned into a fast barrel with that gave me exciting vel. with normal Speer loads but ran the 165 Partitions out at 3,360fps with 78gr. 7828, instead of the book speed of 3,280fps.
I made no changes to the action rails and it fed the .300 Win mag like it was designed for them.

 

[dgr416]

Interesting. I'd like to see pictures. My P14 has the worst trigger my finger has ever touched. Just awful. Be interested to see what Charlie did to fix the trigger.

Its like a 2 pound pull trigger super smooth .The ejector blade broke when I was forming brass and trying it in the chamber .I will anneal the brass next time from 7 mm rem mag brass .Its between a 338-06 and a 338 win mag looks like a minature 375 hh .Quality brass used my once fired brass to make their brass .This is the cartridge that evolved into the 338 win mag .I still have to get the scope mount problem fixed the action is so long regular scopes wont fit in the rings .It has to have a new recoil pad too .My gunsmith retired trying to find another one as good as he was which was perfect .

 

[Daryl S]

I don't remember a trigger problem with mine. Sold it to a local young fellow. Was a great shooting rifle once re-chambered.

 

[HWL]

Im on the cock on closed side here. Whether it’s COO or COC your sight picture is going to be interrupted from the motion, so that point doesn’t hold for me.

.....now you are ready for a Blaser R8!

HWL