Open sighted .450/400 for a 1 gun Safari?

[Mark A Ouellette]

Guys, just reviving this thread, what would your answer be if that 450/400 double was topped with a RMR 3.25moa? I am hoping for minute hens egg at 50m, minute of grapefruit at 100m and minute of bread plate at 150m. Is that realistic?

Kevin,

With my 458 Winchester Heym 88B I have kill at long double gun range;
Medium sized giraffe at a measured 106 meters
Female cape buffalo at 100 meters (the ambush was set up for 50 meters but the buffs approached differently...)
Wildebeast at 150 meters

All well placed shots.
I think that 150 meters is about as far as I want to shoot that double with a RMR/SRO.

I DO NOT like 3.5 minute dots for longer range. The 1 MOA dots must be increased in intensity to see them in sunlight. To my eye, the dot size increases with more intensity. If my 1 MOA RMR and SRO are smaller than 4 MOA at 100 meters on a sunny day, they are smaller than I will set for stalking. If however while tracking or stalking I have an opportunity for a 100+ meter shot, I will reduce the dot in both intensity and size until just barely visible. I cannot imagine using a 3.5 MOA dot if I have the opportunity for long shots. For under 50 meter dangerous game, they will be great!

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

I think 3.25 moa is too big. I'd rather go with 2 moa.

And remember to adjust the power down as daylight fades. I tried to take a zebra late in the day with my 470 double with that RMR but it was turned up from mid day sun and when I looked through it, it was glowing too bright and effectively the red dot was much bigger, covering half the zebra.... To me the jury is still out on the RMR. I'm interested in trying @Just Gina 's new 375 double with the Swarovski 1-8 scope. I know, not at all traditional but should be very effective.

Bob, please get Gina onto that 375, we are all waiting anxiously to get all the scoop on it!

 

[Rare Breed]

Kevin,

With my 458 Winchester Heym 88B I have kill at long double gun range;
Medium sized giraffe at a measured 106 meters
Female cape buffalo at 100 meters (the ambush was set up for 50 meters but the buffs approached differently...)
Wildebeast at 150 meters

All well placed shots.
I think that 150 meters is about as far as I want to shoot that double with a RMR/SRO.

I DO NOT like 3.5 minute dots for longer range. The 1 MOA dots must be increased in intensity to see them in sunlight. To my eye, the dot size increases with more intensity. If my 1 MOA RMR and SRO are smaller than 4 MOA at 100 meters on a sunny day, they are smaller than I will set for stalking. If however while tracking or stalking I have an opportunity for a 100+ meter shot, I will reduce the dot in both intensity and size until just barely visible. I cannot imagine using a 3.5 MOA dot if I have the opportunity for long shots. For under 50 meter dangerous game, they will be great!

This is exactly why I sold my 3.25 and got the 1.0 MOA

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

This is exactly why I sold my 3.25 and got the 1.0 MOA

I am not sure I can get a 1moa in South Africa, but I will try.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

I am not sure I can get a 1moa in South Africa, but I will try.

Has to be Trijicon RMR because that is what the base is set up for. I am spending next Saturday at the range trying for the correct 450/400 load and from there I'll try 50, 100 and 150 metre targets and see how the 3.25 moa does.

 

[AZDAVE]

@Kevin Peacocke a 1 or 2 moa have been what I have gone to for the double rifles I have a red dot on. the 3.25 and bigger really belong on a pistol.

 

[rookhawk]

@Kevin Peacocke a 1 or 2 moa have been what I have gone to for the double rifles I have a red dot on. the 3.25 and bigger really belong on a pistol.

Double check my math. The typical options are pistol (7 MOA) and rifle (3 MOA) for most of these RMRs.

If a 3MOA RMR is a dot covering 3" at 100 yards, then it would be covering 1.5" at 50 yards? (did I divide rather than multiply)

My thinking, wherever that lands us, is that 99% of shots are an average of 33-40 yards for an RMR on a dangerous game weapon. So how big is that dot's coverage at 33 yards?

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

@rookhawk "If a 3MOA RMR is a dot covering 3" at 100 yards, then it would be covering 1.5" at 50 yards? (did I divide rather than multiply)"
In theory this should be correct. In practical application it may not be.
If limited to 50 yards or less, a 3 MOA dot will be just fine. If that's what one has, try it and find out.

Maybe it's my eyes but only at dusk do my 1 MOA Trijicon RMR and SRO appear anywhere near to cover only about 1" at 100 yards. The brighter the day, the more intensity I need to see the dot clearly against the target. The dot gets bigger with more intensity. I shoot my double at 100 meters frequently and how I wish the dot was only a little over an inch!

To verify this I pulled out my 1 MOA RMR and Aimpoint H-1. On this overcast day, I aimed both sights at a fairly dark tree at 100 yards. Here are the results:

1. RMR: The lowest intensity dot that I could see covered about 3" of the tree. This was the same with my naked eye, glasses, and reading glasses (near the prescription I use to compete with an iron sight service pistol)

2. Aimpoint H-1 with 2 MOA dot: With my reading glasses (see above), the dot covered about 2" of the tree. With my naked eye the dot doubled in size, as it also did with my normal prescription.

NOTE: I still have 20/20 vision. But after growing up with better than 20/10 vision, which 30 years ago, according to the Navy doctors was better that most fighter pilots.
Now wear glasses because I like to see the individual leaves on the trees, not just the tree!

NOTE #2: The Aimpoint H-1 and the newer version, the H-2, have fine and accurate windage and elevation adjustments. I compete in Precision (bullseye) pistol at 25 and 50 yards. I have never seen anyone who consistently shoots groups at either distance use an RMR. The adjustments are not fine enough. The H-1/H-2 would be a great, lightweight, and highly accurate sight on a bolt action!

Aimpoint H-1 with sun shield tubes on an Accuracy X 1911

 

[Tanks]

Guys, just reviving this thread, what would your answer be if that 450/400 double was topped with a RMR 3.25moa? I am hoping for minute hens egg at 50m, minute of grapefruit at 100m and minute of bread plate at 150m. Is that realistic?

I'd go with 1 MOA RMR. 3,25 is good for a pistol but once the range increases realistically it will be covering a lot more than the grapefruit at 100m and bread plate at 150.

 

[rookhawk]

I go back to my question. How big is the dot at 33 yards for the 3MOA type?

In all history, for all time, according to a multi-logitudinal survey that was done by Boddington surveying PHs across all of southern Africa, the average shooting distance for DG was 38 yards. Average. That takes into account those 125 yard shots in flooded areas of Moz and the Okavango, plus those long shots in the Namib on elephant where there isn't a drop of cover to be had to hunt closer.

Which is why I go back to the key question, how big is the pinpoint at 33 yards which is a pretty typical shot on DG with an RMR?

I don't know the answer, why I'm asking. My gut tells me the 3MOA RMRs are perfect for DG rifles but the data may prove me wrong.

 

[steve white]

Well, one thing is certain if you go the iron sights route--your PH will HAVE to stalk you up close and that will increase the quality of experience. It might be best under those circumstance to plan your hunt before the burning starts so that the range of animal encounter will be less due to less visibility, and the ability to stalk close will be tilted in your favor. +1 on having a scoped backup, though.

 

[Red Leg]

I go back to my question. How big is the dot at 33 yards for the 3MOA type?

In all history, for all time, according to a multi-logitudinal survey that was done by Boddington surveying PHs across all of southern Africa, the average shooting distance for DG was 38 yards. Average. That takes into account those 125 yard shots in flooded areas of Moz and the Okavango, plus those long shots in the Namib on elephant where there isn't a drop of cover to be had to hunt closer.

Which is why I go back to the key question, how big is the pinpoint at 33 yards which is a pretty typical shot on DG with an RMR?

I don't know the answer, why I'm asking. My gut tells me the 3MOA RMRs are perfect for DG rifles but the data may prove me wrong.

What did his survey say about buffalo? 33 yards has not been the average opportunity window I have experienced. That means half of those dangerous game animals were shot inside 33 yards. I simply don't believe that is true if elephant are removed from the list. While I took one buff at that range (Limpopo), the others were between 50 and 100 (Caprivi and Zambezi Delta x 2). Those others that were observed killed or passed on were all 40 yards or beyond. I would bet good money across most of its range, the first shot at a buffalo is typically taken between 40 and 70 yards.

I personally do not care for 3 MOA. On a stopping rifle? Sure. Particularly in the hands of a PH who potentially needs that extra visibility. But for a client, whose primary function in life on a safari is to put the first bullet in exactly the right spot? I think 1 MOA is a far better choice.

 

[SFRanger7GP]

I like the 3.5 MOA RMR that I have. For me, it is intended to be used for close shooting (with 100 yards being a long shot) when faster sight access may be required. Ideally (for me) it is best used for 50 yards and under when the eyes can no longer access the irons as fast or as clearly. I really like one for shooting pigs and fast follow up shot(s) on the sounder.

If 50 yard plus shots are more the norm, I much prefer a scope. Even better a low powered scope with illuminated dot or crosshairs. For me, that is the best of both worlds.

Safe shooting

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

1 moa spreads 1" at 100 yards, 3moa spreads 3" at 100 yards. I will try on Saturday and see how I go. I know our USA friends are absorbed by precision shooting, no problem with that, but I will mostly be hunting buffalo out to a maximum of 100 yards, and 3" dot on him will be about right. We will see, easy enough to get a 1 moa and screw it on.

 

[SFRanger7GP]

I can easily keep all my shots well inside the diameter of a paper plate at 100 yards with the 3.5 MOA dot. That is plenty good enough for anything I will be shooting.

Safe shooting

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

My shots from my Heym 458 Win double, two from each barrel fit into 4". Of course I run a 1 MOA RMR and SRO.

Aim small, hit small ..
.

 

[AZDAVE]

@rookhawk your math is correct.

The 1 and 2 MOA dots just look better to my eye than the 3.25 and bigger. so these are what I have on the few rifles I have them on.

 

[TOBY458]

I just got back from a walkabout with my R8 458. It wears a 1 moa RMR. It's amazing how well these sights work. I see no reason in the world to go larger than 1 moa. I was consistently hitting pinecone sized rocks at 50 yards offhand. I think this may be the ticket for Elephant hunting especially.

 

[Tanks]

I am not sure I can get a 1moa in South Africa, but I will try.

You have people coming to Zim every year also. One of the others or I can bring a 1MOA RMR over for you if you have sourcing issues.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

You have people coming to Zim every year also. One of the others or I can bring a 1MOA RMR over for you if you have sourcing issues.

Thank you Tanks, much appreciated.