New DOUBLE RIFLE IN 458 LOTT

[Red Leg]

I guess if you are the hunter and using your double for the initial shot you can use what you like.

As a Professional Hunter and guide I would only use a rimmed cartridge in a double, period.

Being willing to pay US$25K on a double for the reason that you own 3 other rifles in the same caliber and it will simplify reloading/ammo issues does not make sense to me.

Go for the proven rimmed version or stay with a bolt action rifle.

I can't argue with that IvW. I am simply making the point that the whole "proper cartridge" for a double rifle thing may be a bit over stated. Frankly my concern with rimless designs is not extraction but loading. On some rimless doubles, it is possible to slide the unfired rounds past the tab. That could be at least embarrassing in a tight situation. Neither my Sodia nor my S2 (with .375 barrels) will do it, but I had, for a short while, an 8x57 j O/U (rimless) which would do so occasionally.

 

[Velo Dog]

Put another way: I will purchase your double rifle from you in any rimmed caliber and I'll replace it with same gun in a rimless caliber even up.

Anyone on the planet think that is a fair deal?

Rookhawk,

If I'm understanding your offer correctly:

1. You purchase from me a double rifle in a rimmed caliber.
Let's say (name your maker) in .375 H&H Flanged.

2. Then you replace it (here's where I'm a little foggy), presumably meaning you then give to me a very much similar rifle, of the same make and model, except in for instance, .375 H&H belted rimless.

If I had a rifle in some rimmed / flanged caliber, I could easily be your huckleberry on this offer.

LOL ?
Velo Dog.

 

[Velo Dog]

I can't argue with that IvW. I am simply making the point that the whole "proper cartridge" for a double rifle thing may be a bit over stated. Frankly my concern with rimless designs is not extraction but loading. On some rimless doubles, it is possible to slide the unfired rounds past the tab. That could be at least embarrassing in a tight situation. Neither my Sodia nor my S2 (with .375 barrels) will do it, but I had, for a short while, an 8x57 j O/U (rimless) which would do so occasionally.

Red Leg,

My aforementioned Merkel SxS in .375 H&H sometimes would allow the belt and groove to drop past the little spring loaded extraction plunger, when hastily shoving a live round into either barrel.
However, evidently it was made to take this in stride, as it would totally correct itself if you ignored it, shut the rifle normally and either fired it or not.
Upon opening the rifle, up would pop the cartridge, as if nothing out of the ordinary had happened.

My Heym .458 has not done this, even though I have tried to see if it would similarly correct itself.
When I vigorously slap live cartridges into it, they always are caught properly on the plungers, right where they belong.
I presume it is because the Merkel only had one plunger per side, whereas the Heym has two per side.
That and the fact that the Heym is generally better quality than my Merkel was.

In closing, even though I definitely prefer rimmed cartridges for doubles and single shots, I totally agree with you that this whole proper cartridges (rimmed / flanged) for double rifles is a bit over-stated.
In a poorly made double rifle, the rimless version is likely to develop issues.
With that, I totally agree but, not so much if the rifle is a well made one.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

 

[IvW]

It is not just the question about the rimless vs the rimmed, there are more things to consider.

Doubles share the same break open action as shotguns. This means they do not have a strong extraction system such as bolt actions. Cases or cartridges have to be lifted out of the chambers by opening the action and the ejectors/extractors, come into play once the cartridges have been initially lifted.

In order to function perfectly in a double rifle, a rimless cartridge needs a specially adapted extractor and/or ejector that contains a small spring-loaded blade which pops up into the groove at the base that all rimless cartridge cases have. This occurs when the action is closed. If for some reason this system fails, the rifle will not extract and/or eject the cartridge case, period. Westley Richards perfected this system but it has it's limitations.

Rimmed cartridges are much better suited to double rifles because the extractors and/or ejectors have a much larger surface (the rim of the cartridge case) to grab hold of for case extraction/ejection. They do not rely on tiny little springs and two blades (that are really quite small), to function.

Belted cartridges use the belt for head spacing.

Rimmed cartridges can headspace on the rim, they extract better, work well in bottleneck or straight case alike, the only limitation on their strength is case design and the action the are chambered to.

The 458 Win mag and 458 LOTT both are rimless belted cases with straight wall cases. They both operate at about 50 percent more chamber pressure than a comparable Rimmed NE.

This extra pressure(especially on a straight walled case), can cause sticky extraction. The camming action of a CRF action can handle this in a good quality rifle. A double rifle system will have a hard time. 40 to 42 degrees celsius in the Zambezi Valley on top of that, eish! I do not want that 458 LOTT in a double in my hands when the chips are down! In a bolt gun, no problem. In a double, could be catastrophic.

Pressure:

458 LOTT operates at 62,500 psi with max 66,500 psi
458 Win operates at 60,000 psi with max 63,500 psi
470 NE operates at 41,000 psi with max 43,600 psi

For interest sake
577 Tyranasaur 60,000 psi with a max 63,800 psi

The big rimmed NE cartridges were made that way for more than one reason, rather stick to them and you will not have any issues.

I would only consider Rimmed cartridges for a double rifle, rimless according to Murphy will fail when you do not need it to and may well cost you your life or somebody in your groups.

 

[Red Leg]

It is not just the question about the rimless vs the rimmed, there are more things to consider.

Doubles share the same break open action as shotguns. This means they do not have a strong extraction system such as bolt actions. Cases or cartridges have to be lifted out of the chambers by opening the action and the ejectors/extractors, come into play once the cartridges have been initially lifted.

In order to function perfectly in a double rifle, a rimless cartridge needs a specially adapted extractor and/or ejector that contains a small spring-loaded blade which pops up into the groove at the base that all rimless cartridge cases have. This occurs when the action is closed. If for some reason this system fails, the rifle will not extract and/or eject the cartridge case, period. Westley Richards perfected this system but it has it's limitations.

Rimmed cartridges are much better suited to double rifles because the extractors and/or ejectors have a much larger surface (the rim of the cartridge case) to grab hold of for case extraction/ejection. They do not rely on tiny little springs and two blades (that are really quite small), to function.

Belted cartridges use the belt for head spacing.

Rimmed cartridges can headspace on the rim, they extract better, work well in bottleneck or straight case alike, the only limitation on their strength is case design and the action the are chambered to.

The 458 Win mag and 458 LOTT both are rimless belted cases with straight wall cases. They both operate at about 50 percent more chamber pressure than a comparable Rimmed NE.

This extra pressure(especially on a straight walled case), can cause sticky extraction. The camming action of a CRF action can handle this in a good quality rifle. A double rifle system will have a hard time. 40 to 42 degrees celsius in the Zambezi Valley on top of that, eish! I do not want that 458 LOTT in a double in my hands when the chips are down! In a bolt gun, no problem. In a double, could be catastrophic.

Pressure:

458 LOTT operates at 62,500 psi with max 66,500 psi
458 Win operates at 60,000 psi with max 63,500 psi
470 NE operates at 41,000 psi with max 43,600 psi

For interest sake
577 Tyranasaur 60,000 psi with a max 63,800 psi

The big rimmed NE cartridges were made that way for more than one reason, rather stick to them and you will not have any issues.

I would only consider Rimmed cartridges for a double rifle, rimless according to Murphy will fail when you do not need it to and may well cost you your life or somebody in your groups.

It may interest you to know I actually understand how break open guns and rifles work. At last count - well I own and have owned more than a few. I think all would agree that a rimmed round is usually most of the time better. I do. But I also believe that the notion that rimless rounds should never be made into a double is nonsense. Quality modern guns so chambered are designed to handle the higher pressures, and from my experience tend to work as advertised. I have taken my Blaser S2 a lot of places and it has never thought about failing me. On the other hand, I have had an FN Browning 98 action, in the field, refuse to hang onto the bolt during a fast reload (that could have been tricky with something inbound), and I have had to play with a least half a dozen bolt guns over the years of various manufacture that had chronic feeding problems. So, all-in-all, the actual, as opposed to theoretical, rimless double record is pretty good in comparison. At least in my personal experience.

 

[Velo Dog]

Once again I find myself in agreement with Mr. Red Leg.

And in furtherance of this topic, the only failure to eject or extract that, I personally can recall, from a double was in a J. P. Sauer 12 bore SxS, with ejectors.

After firing, the left ejector would neither eject or extract.
The shell rim stayed flush in the chamber, even though I opened and closed the gun several times.
It required a cleaning rod to remove the empty.
This was a well used Pre-War shotgun and presumably the ejectors were therefore getting tired.
It extracted live rounds very well but it did not like to eject or extract fired shells evidently.

What happened to the notion someone earlier posted that:
"If an ejector fails on a rimmed cartridge, it will still extract"?

I could have been mauled by a determined chukar or grouchy pigeon.

 

[IvW]

It may interest you to know I actually understand how break open guns and rifles work. At last count - well I own and have owned more than a few. I think all would agree that a rimmed round is usually most of the time better. I do. But I also believe that the notion that rimless rounds should never be made into a double is nonsense. Quality modern guns so chambered are designed to handle the higher pressures, and from my experience tend to work as advertised. I have taken my Blaser S2 a lot of places and it has never thought about failing me. On the other hand, I have had an FN Browning 98 action, in the field, refuse to hang onto the bolt during a fast reload (that could have been tricky with something inbound), and I have had to play with a least half a dozen bolt guns over the years of various manufacture that had chronic feeding problems. So, all-in-all, the actual, as opposed to theoretical, rimless double record is pretty good in comparison. At least in my personal experience.

Nothing @ you Red Leg with regards rimless cartridges in doubles. I am sure, like you there are many happy users of rimless cartridges in doubles.

Personally I would not take the risk. I currently own two combination guns, both fitted with ejectors and both used rimmed cartridges. 9.3 x74R and 7 x 65R, never had any issues whatsoever with them and I use them often. All the doubles I have used had rimmed cartridges. (500 NE, 470 NE, 500/416 NE, 450/400 NE) none of them ever had any issues with extraction or ejection.

It somehow also just looks right for a double to have those nice fat, long rimmed cartridges. A double in 458 Win would just not be right.

I am currently seriously contemplating a double with 2 sets of barrels. They will definitely be for rimmed cartridges. I am considering 500 NE and second barrel set 450/400 NE(first choice at the moment) or 500/416 NE.

 

[rookhawk]

I respect all of you but I'm with @IvW on this one.

Velo, my point was that any bedraggled used double of magnum caliber is always worth more as a rimmed gun. For sake of argument, I'll gladly take say a Merkel 470 even up trade for a identical 458. One is marketable, the other is not. My further example was $100,000+ over under sidelock single trigger ejector 458 beretta was and is unsaleable at thirty something thousand unfired.

This argument is Like arguing about not wearing a motorcycle helmet because you've never had a problem yet. Why intentionally by a caliber in a double that can prove problematic? There is no upside unless you got the gun for a song and accept the increased risks.

 

[Mike70560]

For the record I think a 458 Lott in a double side by side is a poor choice, more so due to higher pressures and the straight wall case. It would be a lot of work to exceed a 450NE by 100 fps.

But at times the heart wants what the heart wants. It would be a pretty cool rifle if it could be built to shoot reliably.

 

[PeteG]

I for one appreciate all the questions and answers and apologies to the OP for mildly hijacking this thread.
From what I have read, no one has has the little extractor claw/ ejector actually fail or break on a rimless double.
Rookhawk, your experience was with bad timing of the ejectors, but that could happen on any double, right?
Point here is that if the OP wants a double in 458 then he should get whatever it is he would like. Would a rimmed cartridge be better, maybe. More nostalgic, definitely. Less likely to develop a problem, maybe.
as with @Velo Dog and @Red Leg have experienced no problems with theirs, should give the OP enough reason not to doubt a high quality well made double in 458.

This argument is Like arguing about not wearing a motorcycle helmet because you've never had a problem yet.

More like comparing full face to flip up. Both work, same result just different way of doing it.

 

[Ray B]

I tire of people whose main factor in life is the $$. I tend to not throw money away, but then I don't place a high priority of making sure that I'll be able to get "my money" out of something. that said, with regard to cartridge selection for a double rifle, or any break-action rifle, I defer to the statement of CP Donnelly, the most knowledgeable gunsmith that I knew before his passing a few years ago. I was seeking a high powered ,22 centerfire to be made on a Winchester High Wall. He said the action was designed for a rimmed cartridge. the action could be reworked but would never be really successful to handle a rimless cartridge. If I wanted a 22/250 I should put the HighWall back in the safe and get a Ruger No 1. CP said the 225 was about the only factory cartridge that would work- I went with a wildcat 22/30-30 Ackley. Once I got 400 cases formed I've been very happy with the choice.
All of that to say this. I'm not familiar with all of the actions available for double rifles, but keeping with CPs advice, if the action is designed for a rimmed cartridge, I would chamber the rifle for a rimmed cartridge, rather than try to convert the action to something it was never designed to do. If there are actions out there that are designed for SxS rifles chambered for rimless cartridges, then I would say that would be the route to take if a rimless cartridge is desired. but it does seem to me that there is little ballistic advantage.

 

[Heym 88]

what he said

 

[HWL]

Being willing to pay US$25K on a double for the reason that you own 3 other rifles in the same caliber and it will simplify reloading/ammo issues does not make sense to me.

I have two .458 Winchester-Magnum....

I want to change one into .458 Lott, because I hope, it makes life more interesting, when you can compare.....



HWL

 

[IvW]

I have two .458 Winchester-Magnum....

I want to change one into .458 Lott, because I hope, it makes life more interesting, when you can compare.....



HWL

There is a remarkable difference on DG when comparing a 458 LOTT to a 458 Win.

I will never own either but from past experience with clients I will never use a 458 Win on buffalo or elephant.

Either is still a bad idea in a double rifle though(my opinion anyway).

For back-up I have never found my 500 JEFF wanting. If I ever switch to a double it will be to a 500 NE.

My advice for anybody wanting a double is to stick to flanged cartridges, that is what they where designed for(again, my personal opinion).

 

[rookhawk]

I have two .458 Winchester-Magnum....

I want to change one into .458 Lott, because I hope, it makes life more interesting, when you can compare.....



HWL

Don't take this the wrong way....

The 458 Lott is the very last caliber in the world I would own in a double rifle.

1.) rimless cartridge, requires an ejector and if it fails you can't get the shell out

2.) the small belt is easily passed beyond the mini ejector stud so you could put the shell in passing the ejector, fail to close the gun, and be dead

3.) the 458 Lott is about pushing a magazine rifle to the limits of pressure to pack major punch. With a double rifle, it will be a subdued, neutered load so it regulates the rifle. No one will regulate the gun to a hit load because temp swings and sight powder variances will make the velocity swing dangerously too high. Thus, it's going to have a waste of limited power..:gaining nothing over a 458 win. A 450NE, 400/450 or 470NE will avoid all of these issues

 

[HWL]

Don't take this the wrong way....

The 458 Lott is the very last caliber in the world I would own in a double rifle.

1.) rimless cartridge, requires an ejector and if it fails you can't get the shell out

2.) the small belt is easily passed beyond the mini ejector stud so you could put the shell in passing the ejector, fail to close the gun, and be dead

3.) the 458 Lott is about pushing a magazine rifle to the limits of pressure to pack major punch. With a double rifle, it will be a subdued, neutered load so it regulates the rifle. No one will regulate the gun to a hit load because temp swings and sight powder variances will make the velocity swing dangerously too high. Thus, it's going to have a waste of limited power..:gaining nothing over a 458 win. A 450NE, 400/450 or 470NE will avoid all of these issues

I am completely with you, in terms of a double rifle..... my .458 Win I want to change is a bolt action Mauser 66S...

HWL

 

[HWL]

There is a remarkable difference on DG when comparing a 458 LOTT to a 458 Win.

I will never own either but from past experience with clients I will never use a 458 Win on buffalo or elephant.

What exactly is the"remarkable difference" between a .458 Lot and a .458 Win?

And what are the experiences, that you will never use a.458 Win on boffalo or Elefant?

HWL

 

[rookhawk]

I am completely with you, in terms of a double rifle..... my .458 Win I want to change is a bolt action Mauser 66S...

HWL

Definitely worth a go. Research the South African 458s too. There is one bigger than a Lott that is backwards compatible with both Lott and Winchester if you want more gusto.

In a quality handload with an exceptional bullet and powders available to the American market, there is nothing a 458 Winchester cannot due with complete satisfaction. (But bigger is better anyway, right?)

 

[HWL]

Definitely worth a go. Research the South African 458s too. There is one bigger than a Lott that is backwards compatible with both Lott and Winchester if you want more gusto.

But bigger is better anyway, right?

HWL

 

[Heym 88]

There is a remarkable difference on DG when comparing a 458 LOTT to a 458 Win.

I will never own either but from past experience with clients I will never use a 458 Win on buffalo or elephant.

Either is still a bad idea in a double rifle though(my opinion anyway).

For back-up I have never found my 500 JEFF wanting. If I ever switch to a double it will be to a 500 NE.

My advice for anybody wanting a double is to stick to flanged cartridges, that is what they where designed for(again, my personal opinion).

yup