New DOUBLE RIFLE IN 458 LOTT

BETO

AH senior member
Joined
Jun 11, 2009
Messages
63
Reaction score
6
Media
45
Member of
ATCC associação tocantinense de caça e conservação
Dear friends,

I'm programming to buy a DOUBLE RIFLE, I would like it to be in the caliber 458Lott, I already have a MERKEL 160.2 500NE, I love this weapon. But as I already have 3 other 458lott caliber rifles the logistical ammunition and reloading supplements.

The question, who can make a DOUBLE SXS sidelock 458lott for me? I would like to stay with a maximum value of US $ 25,000.00.

I accept suggestions, I appreciate the attention

Beto

Sorry for my bad English.

Portuguese and Spanish are better.
 

IvW

AH legend
Joined
Dec 20, 2016
Messages
3,321
Reaction score
6,306
Location
South Africa
Media
62
Articles
3
Hunting reports
Africa
1
Member of
BASA, CHASA
Hunted
South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Namibia,Zambia
Why would you want a double in 458 Lott?
Flanged cartridges are the way to go for a double, period.

You state you have 3 other rifles chambered for the Lott. If you want to spend 25K on a double buy one in a proper NE calibre.

You could also send your Merkel 500 NE back to Merkel and have them make you another set of barrels in 470 NE for example. It would be too close to the 500 NE you already have.

I would consider 450/400 NE or 500/416 NE to compliment the 500 NE, but definitely not a 458 LOTT(not in a double anyway.
 

rookhawk

AH legend
Joined
Mar 4, 2015
Messages
3,370
Reaction score
4,721
Location
North America
Media
138
Articles
2
Member of
NRA Life Benefactor, Trout Unlimited, Safari Club International
I wager the original post was an African as they typically favor the 458.

It is imprudent to buy a 458 double for several reasons:

1.) if they jam, a rimless cartridge won't eject

2.) if an ejector breaks, they won't extract

3.) there is no industry agreed regulation load so you're handoading

4.) they are virtually unsalable on resale market

A $150,000 new Beretta 458 hand built over under single trigger lingered for a decade at beretta gallery. It sold for around $18,000 and you'll see it on the gun auction sites for an asking price new and unused of $40,000 the pst few years with no takers.

Caveat emptor.

If you want a double, make it a sxs double trigger on a rimmed cartridge like 450/400, 470, or 500. At least you'll have a chance of selling it when you're through.
 

Odinsraven

AH fanatic
Joined
May 25, 2013
Messages
663
Reaction score
644
Location
Iceland
Media
11
Hunting reports
Africa
5
Member of
NRA Life Membe,Icelandic Hunting Club SKOTVIS , BASC (UK) Countryside Alliance (UK)r
Hunted
UK ,Ireland, Bulgaria,Iceland,Czech Republic
375 FL would be perfect as a lighter rifle ...........
 

Velo Dog

Silver supporter
AH legend
Joined
Mar 27, 2014
Messages
3,467
Reaction score
5,157
Location
Anchorage
Media
58
Hunting reports
Africa
1
USA/Canada
1
Member of
NRA Life Member.
Hunted
Africa 5 times, USA - most western states including Alaska and Hawaii.
Dear friends,

I'm programming to buy a DOUBLE RIFLE, I would like it to be in the caliber 458Lott, I already have a MERKEL 160.2 500NE, I love this weapon. But as I already have 3 other 458lott caliber rifles the logistical ammunition and reloading supplements.

The question, who can make a DOUBLE SXS sidelock 458lott for me? I would like to stay with a maximum value of US $ 25,000.00.

I accept suggestions, I appreciate the attention

Beto

Sorry for my bad English.

Portuguese and Spanish are better.


Hola Beto,

Tu Ingles es perfecto, mi amigo.

My double rifle is a Heym Model 88B, caliber .458 Winchester, hecho cerca de 1980's.

The ejectors have not failed, not even once.

I like this Heym rifle for many reasons.

One reason is because the ammunition for it is very common and so ammunition is quite easy to find, especially if I bring this rifle to Africa.

Incidentally, I also once owned and hunted in Africa with a Merkel double in .375 H&H caliber, it too did not ever fail to extract (unfortunately it was not made with ejectors).

That Merkel was slightly flawed, with the right side throat or bore too tight, as the fired cartridge on that side would flatten primers badly and sometimes even pierce primers, causing small pieces of jagged primer metal to poke backwards into the striker hole.

It was necessary to grip my barrels in one hand and stock in the other hand, then bash my rifle over my knee at the rifle hinge, in order to shear off the primer metal.

Even with that problem, the little Merkel never failed to extract the empty brass, not once.

I fully realize that my two rifles chambered for rimless cartridges is no exhaustive scientific test of rimless ejector / extractor double rifles.

Tambien, I do definitely prefer rimmed or "flanged" cartridges for doubles and single shots however, it is obvious that I do not worry much about it, if the rifle is from a typically good quality maker and if the rifle is offered to me at the right price.

I presume Heym will make a double rifle for you in .458 Lott.

However a side lock model, made in a custom ordered caliber, might be more expensive that $25,000.us ?

Salud,
Velo Dog.
 

Ray B

AH legend
Joined
Aug 19, 2016
Messages
2,727
Reaction score
3,252
Location
WA St, USA
Media
77
Hunting reports
USA/Canada
1
The extractors on Ruger Number 1s seem to work well enough on rimless and belted cartridges.
 

rookhawk

AH legend
Joined
Mar 4, 2015
Messages
3,370
Reaction score
4,721
Location
North America
Media
138
Articles
2
Member of
NRA Life Benefactor, Trout Unlimited, Safari Club International
Put another way: I will purchase your double rifle from you in any rimmed caliber and I'll replace it with same gun in a rimless caliber even up.

Anyone on the planet think that is a fair deal?
 

rookhawk

AH legend
Joined
Mar 4, 2015
Messages
3,370
Reaction score
4,721
Location
North America
Media
138
Articles
2
Member of
NRA Life Benefactor, Trout Unlimited, Safari Club International
Out of curiosity, how many people here have had first hand experience of an extractor breaking on a double rifle chambered for a rimless round?
I mean real first hand experience.

I'm unaware of a rimless "extractor" double rifle. In order to remove the cartridge they typically need ejectors.

I've had two double rifles that I acquired with bad ejectors thinking they could be fixed for $200 and I'd make a windfall. A 350 G&H and an 8mm. In both cases repairing and retiming ejectors proved to be very expensive. When I sold the 350G&H I believe I lost about a $1000 on my investment.

When a rimmed gun's ejector goes tits up it still extracts. Not so with a rimless cartridge.
 

PeteG

AH elite
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
1,379
Reaction score
1,522
Media
68
Articles
1
Hunting reports
Africa
1
I'm unaware of a rimless "extractor" double rifle. In order to remove the cartridge they typically need ejectors.

I've had two double rifles that I acquired with bad ejectors thinking they could be fixed for $200 and I'd make a windfall. A 350 G&H and an 8mm. In both cases repairing and retiming ejectors proved to be very expensive. When I sold the 350G&H I believe I lost about a $1000 on my investment.

When a rimmed gun's ejector goes tits up it still extracts. Not so with a rimless cartridge.
Should've written ejector, that's what I meant.
What was the problem with the two rifles you bought that were broken?
What was the 8mm? 8x57?
 

rookhawk

AH legend
Joined
Mar 4, 2015
Messages
3,370
Reaction score
4,721
Location
North America
Media
138
Articles
2
Member of
NRA Life Benefactor, Trout Unlimited, Safari Club International
Ejectors go out of time.

Common on doubles because someone shoots them with a hotter load than proper. Than they get put back on face. Then the ejectors are screwed up and the cocking dogs need work.

It's certainly beyond my abilities to fix and gets pricey real fast.
 

PeteG

AH elite
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
1,379
Reaction score
1,522
Media
68
Articles
1
Hunting reports
Africa
1
Ejectors go out of time.

Common on doubles because someone shoots them with a hotter load than proper. Than they get put back on face. Then the ejectors are screwed up and the cocking dogs need work.

It's certainly beyond my abilities to fix and gets pricey real fast.
Ok, so it's not limited to being due to them on a rimless case but due to use, wear and loading? Could and probably does happen on doubles in rimmed cals?
 

rookhawk

AH legend
Joined
Mar 4, 2015
Messages
3,370
Reaction score
4,721
Location
North America
Media
138
Articles
2
Member of
NRA Life Benefactor, Trout Unlimited, Safari Club International
Ok, so it's not limited to being due to them on a rimless case but due to use, wear and loading? Could and probably does happen on doubles in rimmed cals?


You don't die when you can reload an extracted case, typically.

Imagine that moment when you can't remove the rimless cartridge that won't eject in the heat of the moment.

The consequences of a broken ejector on a rimmed gun are less than on a rimless. This is why there is a value premium for rimmed doubles. This is why almost all DG doubles use rimmed cartridges.

In the states when a double's ejectors go out of time or an ejector spring fails, or a cocking dog gets worn, there are between 3 and 25+ smiths that can fix it depending on if it is a perkes ejector, a south gate or other. In Africa, that number has to be zero. My PH has a ferlach .458 that won't eject presently and there is no one that will fix it, nor does he have the gun care skills to keep it healthy ongoing as he is brutal on equipment.

Bottom line, do what you like of course. Just observe that Rimmed doubles are the norm and they cost more used so there are clearly reasons based on safety and reliability.
 

PeteG

AH elite
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
1,379
Reaction score
1,522
Media
68
Articles
1
Hunting reports
Africa
1
The consequences of a broken ejector on a rimmed gun are less than on a rimless.
Will a rimless still eject if the ejector is broken?

Definitely agree that there are almost no gunsmiths that can work on doubles outside of Europe or US whether it's rimmed or not I think you'd be in for a tough time looking for repairs.
 

rookhawk

AH legend
Joined
Mar 4, 2015
Messages
3,370
Reaction score
4,721
Location
North America
Media
138
Articles
2
Member of
NRA Life Benefactor, Trout Unlimited, Safari Club International
Will a rimless still eject if the ejector is broken?

Definitely agree that there are almost no gunsmiths that can work on doubles outside of Europe or US whether it's rimmed or not I think you'd be in for a tough time looking for repairs.


No. That's the point. No rim to grab for extraction. If the ejector breaks and you have a rimless double rifle, you cannot get the shell extracted. This is about when you're trampled, gored, bit or clawed to death with the .458.
 

PeteG

AH elite
Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
1,379
Reaction score
1,522
Media
68
Articles
1
Hunting reports
Africa
1
No. That's the point. No rim to grab for extraction. If the ejector breaks and you have a rimless double rifle, you cannot get the shell extracted. This is about when you're trampled, gored, bit or clawed to death with the .458.
What about on a rimmed case? Will the case still extract with a broken ejector?
 

Mike70560

AH elite
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
1,103
Reaction score
692
Location
Delcambre, LA
Media
154
Articles
5
Hunting reports
Africa
7
USA/Canada
1
Member of
SCI, DSC, NRA
Hunted
Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Tanzania, Zambia, Republic of Congo, Canada
There are a few 458 Lott rifles out there.

There is one example in this link.

http://www.pacificsportingarms.com/perugini/new-perugini-guns/

I believe Champlin's had a Famars for sale at one time. George would be good guy to contact concerning this.

I know of a guy rechambering a 458 Win CZ 489 to a 458 Lott. Put over 1000 rounds through it without any problems. It is an over and under not a side by side.

It may not be the best of ideas to me, but if it what you truly want......

Screenshot (189).png
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Red Leg

Lifetime bronze benefactor
AH ambassador
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
6,230
Reaction score
17,309
Location
Texas Hill Country
Media
271
Articles
5
Hunting reports
Africa
2
USA/Canada
4
Mex/S.Amer
1
Europe
3
Member of
SCI DSC life memberships / NRA Patron Life
Hunted
Mexico, Namibia, RSA, Germany, Austria, Argentina, Canada, Mozambique, Spain, US (15 states)
I'm unaware of a rimless "extractor" double rifle. In order to remove the cartridge they typically need ejectors.

I've had two double rifles that I acquired with bad ejectors thinking they could be fixed for $200 and I'd make a windfall. A 350 G&H and an 8mm. In both cases repairing and retiming ejectors proved to be very expensive. When I sold the 350G&H I believe I lost about a $1000 on my investment.

When a rimmed gun's ejector goes tits up it still extracts. Not so with a rimless cartridge.
I owned a lovely Franz Sodia extractor in .375 H&H for many years and never had an extraction issue with it. It was petit, scoped, accurate, and dependable post-war rifle. Tony Makris owns it now. I would know if he had any issues with it.

It was regulated for the 270 gr bullet, and I found two factory loads which went into very tight 4 shot groups. Would have been hard pressed to pull that off with the .375 flanged.
 
Last edited:

IvW

AH legend
Joined
Dec 20, 2016
Messages
3,321
Reaction score
6,306
Location
South Africa
Media
62
Articles
3
Hunting reports
Africa
1
Member of
BASA, CHASA
Hunted
South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Namibia,Zambia
I guess if you are the hunter and using your double for the initial shot you can use what you like.

As a Professional Hunter and guide I would only use a rimmed cartridge in a double, period.

Being willing to pay US$25K on a double for the reason that you own 3 other rifles in the same caliber and it will simplify reloading/ammo issues does not make sense to me.

Go for the proven rimmed version or stay with a bolt action rifle.
 

Red Leg

Lifetime bronze benefactor
AH ambassador
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
6,230
Reaction score
17,309
Location
Texas Hill Country
Media
271
Articles
5
Hunting reports
Africa
2
USA/Canada
4
Mex/S.Amer
1
Europe
3
Member of
SCI DSC life memberships / NRA Patron Life
Hunted
Mexico, Namibia, RSA, Germany, Austria, Argentina, Canada, Mozambique, Spain, US (15 states)
I'm unaware of a rimless "extractor" double rifle. In order to remove the cartridge they typically need ejectors.

I've had two double rifles that I acquired with bad ejectors thinking they could be fixed for $200 and I'd make a windfall. A 350 G&H and an 8mm. In both cases repairing and retiming ejectors proved to be very expensive. When I sold the 350G&H I believe I lost about a $1000 on my investment.

When a rimmed gun's ejector goes tits up it still extracts. Not so with a rimless cartridge.
The tabs should grip the rim and lift a cartridge just as easily as they will grip the rim and fire them in an ejection sequence.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
36,697
Messages
695,415
Members
64,386
Latest member
ReggieJust
 

 

 

Latest profile posts

Rifle57 wrote on Rimshot's profile.
I bought some bullets from Rimshot and he is good to trade with!
Greetings all! I've been a hunter for 50 years, but only now planning a trip to Africa. I was fortunate and successfully bid on a couple hunts for plains game in SA later this year and next. Also a rare Native Texas (5th generation) and USMC Vet. Hunt safe y'all!
uujm wrote on trg's profile.
I am looking for a Safari Express. Was yours made in New Haven or South Carolina? Any other details you can give me? I am very motivated to buy.
pimes wrote on flatwater bill's profile.
Hello Bill - can you tell me that landowner/ranch/outfitter - Thank you!
Pete0905 wrote on damundsen87's profile.
Hello
Is the Khales 1-6 still for sale?
Thanks
Josh
 
Top