New DOUBLE RIFLE IN 458 LOTT

Discussion in 'Double Rifles' started by BETO, Feb 16, 2017.

  1. BETO

    BETO AH Senior Member

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    Dear friends,

    I'm programming to buy a DOUBLE RIFLE, I would like it to be in the caliber 458Lott, I already have a MERKEL 160.2 500NE, I love this weapon. But as I already have 3 other 458lott caliber rifles the logistical ammunition and reloading supplements.

    The question, who can make a DOUBLE SXS sidelock 458lott for me? I would like to stay with a maximum value of US $ 25,000.00.

    I accept suggestions, I appreciate the attention

    Beto

    Sorry for my bad English.

    Portuguese and Spanish are better.
     
  2. IvW

    IvW AH Veteran

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    Why would you want a double in 458 Lott?
    Flanged cartridges are the way to go for a double, period.

    You state you have 3 other rifles chambered for the Lott. If you want to spend 25K on a double buy one in a proper NE calibre.

    You could also send your Merkel 500 NE back to Merkel and have them make you another set of barrels in 470 NE for example. It would be too close to the 500 NE you already have.

    I would consider 450/400 NE or 500/416 NE to compliment the 500 NE, but definitely not a 458 LOTT(not in a double anyway.
     
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  3. rookhawk

    rookhawk AH Elite

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    I wager the original post was an African as they typically favor the 458.

    It is imprudent to buy a 458 double for several reasons:

    1.) if they jam, a rimless cartridge won't eject

    2.) if an ejector breaks, they won't extract

    3.) there is no industry agreed regulation load so you're handoading

    4.) they are virtually unsalable on resale market

    A $150,000 new Beretta 458 hand built over under single trigger lingered for a decade at beretta gallery. It sold for around $18,000 and you'll see it on the gun auction sites for an asking price new and unused of $40,000 the pst few years with no takers.

    Caveat emptor.

    If you want a double, make it a sxs double trigger on a rimmed cartridge like 450/400, 470, or 500. At least you'll have a chance of selling it when you're through.
     
  4. Odinsraven

    Odinsraven AH Enthusiast

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    375 FL would be perfect as a lighter rifle ...........
     
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  5. Velo Dog

    Velo Dog SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Hola Beto,

    Tu Ingles es perfecto, mi amigo.

    My double rifle is a Heym Model 88B, caliber .458 Winchester, hecho cerca de 1980's.

    The ejectors have not failed, not even once.

    I like this Heym rifle for many reasons.

    One reason is because the ammunition for it is very common and so ammunition is quite easy to find, especially if I bring this rifle to Africa.

    Incidentally, I also once owned and hunted in Africa with a Merkel double in .375 H&H caliber, it too did not ever fail to extract (unfortunately it was not made with ejectors).

    That Merkel was slightly flawed, with the right side throat or bore too tight, as the fired cartridge on that side would flatten primers badly and sometimes even pierce primers, causing small pieces of jagged primer metal to poke backwards into the striker hole.

    It was necessary to grip my barrels in one hand and stock in the other hand, then bash my rifle over my knee at the rifle hinge, in order to shear off the primer metal.

    Even with that problem, the little Merkel never failed to extract the empty brass, not once.

    I fully realize that my two rifles chambered for rimless cartridges is no exhaustive scientific test of rimless ejector / extractor double rifles.

    Tambien, I do definitely prefer rimmed or "flanged" cartridges for doubles and single shots however, it is obvious that I do not worry much about it, if the rifle is from a typically good quality maker and if the rifle is offered to me at the right price.

    I presume Heym will make a double rifle for you in .458 Lott.

    However a side lock model, made in a custom ordered caliber, might be more expensive that $25,000.us ?

    Salud,
    Velo Dog.
     
  6. Ray B

    Ray B AH Fanatic

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    The extractors on Ruger Number 1s seem to work well enough on rimless and belted cartridges.
     
  7. rookhawk

    rookhawk AH Elite

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    Put another way: I will purchase your double rifle from you in any rimmed caliber and I'll replace it with same gun in a rimless caliber even up.

    Anyone on the planet think that is a fair deal?
     
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  8. PeteG

    PeteG AH Fanatic

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    Out of curiosity, how many people here have had first hand experience of an extractor breaking on a double rifle chambered for a rimless round?
    I mean real first hand experience.
     
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  9. rookhawk

    rookhawk AH Elite

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    I'm unaware of a rimless "extractor" double rifle. In order to remove the cartridge they typically need ejectors.

    I've had two double rifles that I acquired with bad ejectors thinking they could be fixed for $200 and I'd make a windfall. A 350 G&H and an 8mm. In both cases repairing and retiming ejectors proved to be very expensive. When I sold the 350G&H I believe I lost about a $1000 on my investment.

    When a rimmed gun's ejector goes tits up it still extracts. Not so with a rimless cartridge.
     
  10. PeteG

    PeteG AH Fanatic

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    Should've written ejector, that's what I meant.
    What was the problem with the two rifles you bought that were broken?
    What was the 8mm? 8x57?
     
  11. rookhawk

    rookhawk AH Elite

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    Ejectors go out of time.

    Common on doubles because someone shoots them with a hotter load than proper. Than they get put back on face. Then the ejectors are screwed up and the cocking dogs need work.

    It's certainly beyond my abilities to fix and gets pricey real fast.
     
  12. PeteG

    PeteG AH Fanatic

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    Ok, so it's not limited to being due to them on a rimless case but due to use, wear and loading? Could and probably does happen on doubles in rimmed cals?
     
  13. rookhawk

    rookhawk AH Elite

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    You don't die when you can reload an extracted case, typically.

    Imagine that moment when you can't remove the rimless cartridge that won't eject in the heat of the moment.

    The consequences of a broken ejector on a rimmed gun are less than on a rimless. This is why there is a value premium for rimmed doubles. This is why almost all DG doubles use rimmed cartridges.

    In the states when a double's ejectors go out of time or an ejector spring fails, or a cocking dog gets worn, there are between 3 and 25+ smiths that can fix it depending on if it is a perkes ejector, a south gate or other. In Africa, that number has to be zero. My PH has a ferlach .458 that won't eject presently and there is no one that will fix it, nor does he have the gun care skills to keep it healthy ongoing as he is brutal on equipment.

    Bottom line, do what you like of course. Just observe that Rimmed doubles are the norm and they cost more used so there are clearly reasons based on safety and reliability.
     
  14. PeteG

    PeteG AH Fanatic

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    Will a rimless still eject if the ejector is broken?

    Definitely agree that there are almost no gunsmiths that can work on doubles outside of Europe or US whether it's rimmed or not I think you'd be in for a tough time looking for repairs.
     
  15. rookhawk

    rookhawk AH Elite

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    No. That's the point. No rim to grab for extraction. If the ejector breaks and you have a rimless double rifle, you cannot get the shell extracted. This is about when you're trampled, gored, bit or clawed to death with the .458.
     
  16. PeteG

    PeteG AH Fanatic

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    What about on a rimmed case? Will the case still extract with a broken ejector?
     
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  17. Mike70560

    Mike70560 AH Elite

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    There are a few 458 Lott rifles out there.

    There is one example in this link.

    http://www.pacificsportingarms.com/perugini/new-perugini-guns/

    I believe Champlin's had a Famars for sale at one time. George would be good guy to contact concerning this.

    I know of a guy rechambering a 458 Win CZ 489 to a 458 Lott. Put over 1000 rounds through it without any problems. It is an over and under not a side by side.

    It may not be the best of ideas to me, but if it what you truly want......

    Screenshot (189).png
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2017
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  18. Red Leg

    Red Leg GOLD SUPPORTER AH Elite

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    I owned a lovely Franz Sodia extractor in .375 H&H for many years and never had an extraction issue with it. It was petit, scoped, accurate, and dependable post-war rifle. Tony Makris owns it now. I would know if he had any issues with it.

    It was regulated for the 270 gr bullet, and I found two factory loads which went into very tight 4 shot groups. Would have been hard pressed to pull that off with the .375 flanged.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
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  19. IvW

    IvW AH Veteran

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    I guess if you are the hunter and using your double for the initial shot you can use what you like.

    As a Professional Hunter and guide I would only use a rimmed cartridge in a double, period.

    Being willing to pay US$25K on a double for the reason that you own 3 other rifles in the same caliber and it will simplify reloading/ammo issues does not make sense to me.

    Go for the proven rimmed version or stay with a bolt action rifle.
     
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  20. Red Leg

    Red Leg GOLD SUPPORTER AH Elite

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    The tabs should grip the rim and lift a cartridge just as easily as they will grip the rim and fire them in an ejection sequence.
     

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