medium bores "neither fish nor fowl"

matt85

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a dead elephant is a dead elephant, be it from a brain shot or a heart shot. as long as its done properly (up close and personal) i dont see an issue with either. although a frontal brain shot on a charging animal would be very exciting! for my first elephant hunt i wouldnt be very picky on where i shot the animal as long as it brings it down quickly.

Jaco, one of these days you and i are gonna have to hunt together. (y)

Tanks, if im payen then we are gonna have to wait a while (decades), with an average income of $50k a year i cant swing one elephant let alone multiple at this point in my life. heck, my buffalo hunt will take nearly two years to save up for.

-matt
 
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Tanks

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So, you are just theory crafting? By the way, a tuskless hunt costs almost the same as a buffalo hunt. Trophy fees are the same or less, so if you want an elephant you have options.
 

matt85

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So, you are just theory crafting?

not exactly what you mean here... o_O

i purchased my rifle with the intent to hunt the entire big 5 (and grizzly). now as im not wealthy it will likely take my entire life to achieve this. this thread was started because i was promptly told by a number of people on a different forum that my rifle was "too small" for elephant.

-matt
 

Tanks

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What is your rifle? You did not specify it per se though you did mention 416 Rigby. Also, by the time you accumulate the funds I am sure you'll have another rifle anyway. ;). I think any caliber 375 and up will do the job with the right placement. Caliber becomes an issue I think when one has a near miss or has to take a disabling shot from the rear. Here is a video of a missed brain shot with 500MDM shooting a 500gr bullet on a charging elephant. It still did the job in knocking down the animal, and allowing for finishing shots.
 

matt85

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the rifle is a B. Searcy double chambered in 500/416 NE. given the cost of double rifles, I may have more rifles by then but they wont be double rifles.

don't get me wrong, as I stated before I love big bore guns. In fact my next bolt gun will either be a 458 Lott or a 505 Gibbs (the gibbs if I sell my double and the lott if I don't). my double is having problems but that's another story.

but I believe the 416 should suffice for anything in Africa.

-matt
 

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the rifle is a B. Searcy double chambered in 500/416 NE. given the cost of double rifles, I may have more rifles by then but they wont be double rifles.

don't get me wrong, as I stated before I love big bore guns. In fact my next bolt gun will either be a 458 Lott or a 505 Gibbs (the gibbs if I sell my double and the lott if I don't). my double is having problems but that's another story.

but I believe the 416 should suffice for anything in Africa.

-matt
matt you are totally correct that your .416 or any of the .416s are more than capable of taking anything in africa. remember not that many years ago due to the lack of ammunition for the older big/medium calibres many phs used the .375h&h as their carry/back up rifle and some still do .
 

Tanks

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Nice gun. I don't know why the OP about 200 yard shots on the PG though. Regulate the double to 50 yards for DG, and get a PG bolt gun in a flat shooting caliber, make it a 375 or another 416 if you want to be "versatile" ;).

.416 is indeed sufficient for anything in Africa. I am using my .416B&M as my PG gun with 225gr tipped CEB Raptors, but it is also sighted in with 350gr/325gr CEB solids/Raptors as a backup DG gun both dead on with irons at 25 yards, and on the scope (3rd black DOT vertical, and 5 clicks left on horizontal) adjustments for 1" high at 50 yards. So, if something happens to my .500 it will do the job. Or if the opposite of what you are talking about occurs, where while hunting a Zebra I run across this monster buffalo, it would be just a quick job of changing ammo and making the horizontal adjustment on the scope.
 

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A brain shot is a very difficult shot to do , most hunters love to do it especially those who have never hunted Elle.........

Heart lung provides a much larger target... I believe that the more time you spend in proximity of elephant the better your idea becomes on shot placement.

On an approaching Elle your point of aim changes with every step, the only constant on a pivoting head are the zygomatic arches, drawing a connecting line through these provide you with a point of aim no matter what the rest of the heads angle is....

It took me months! To realize where the damn things were!!! :) ;) never mind even placing a shot, I was lucky enough to learn from a extremely experienced ph/outfitter who in those days could be regarded as a modern day Buzz... And this helped allot.

My reasons are simple, I make it as easy and as uncomplicated for every hunter I hunt with, I have a motto...

KISS (keep it stupid simple) and swing as much in your favor as possible...whilst still providing a consummate or fulfilling hunting experience.

Just my way of doing it. :) :) ;)

My best always

Hi all,

Jaco, thanks a lot for this advice !

Please, to shoot elephant to the heart with a 375 H & H caliber, which bullet you advise: solid, swift A frame, Barnes ...?

Thank for this new advice (y)
 

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I would go the monolithic route, Elle's are thick skinned, big boned Pachyderms, and you need all the penetration you can get, and the 375 will give you more than enough of that.

Enjoy it!
My best as always
 

ActionBob

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There was an excellent article linked on the board a while back that referenced the 375 H & H being the best "client" gun for DG. It was along the lines of what Jaco and I think many of the PH's are saying.... The client's responsibility is to make a good first shot, recover quickly and make follow up shots as required. The 375 and/or 416 or any other mediums will likely be the best calibers in most cases for this.

On the other hand, a DG PH has a "vital" role of being ready and able to stop a dangerous situation like a close in charge and to do so in seconds (or less).... So the whole discussion of "stopping calibers" is really a discussion that should be for the PH's.... The client (me for example) should bring a legal and effective gun/caliber that has been practiced with a lot and he/she can shoot accurately and as quickly as possible.

The take away I am getting here is a 375 to 416 is an ideal client caliber. Yet if your a gun nut and an important part of the hunt to you is to shoot a big bore double... And that is part of your dream, by all means do that... But do it with one you can shoot responsibly.
 

KWALATA SAFARIS

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Perfectly summed up ActionBob.

Too smart! :) :) :) ;) lol!

My best always
 

ActionBob

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Matt85;
I can appreciate you are saving up and have a plan to hunt all the animals you mentioned (I assume Rhino may be excluded or substituted with hippo, or darted?). On the income you mentioned, with living costs in America, you should see that as a major life accomplishment if you can pull that off and provide for retirement, etc. along the way. As you progress through this list, you may find hippo or croc on it and will need good accuracy for that, probably a 375 or 416.

As I mentioned above, if part of your dream is to do it with that double, by all means follow your dream. But if your main concern is the hunt itself and the gun you use is secondary... Sell that thing, and maybe some others (don't know what you have) and get yourself a good 375 or 416 bolt gun (if you don't already have one)... Either put the money directly towards a hunt now, or invest it as wisely as you can to build your funds for the future hunts.

Personally I have a new model 70 Winchester 375 H&H that I bought during a big special for under $1000. Another $1000 (actually negotiated a couple hundred off) into a VX6 2-12. I just got in 200 rounds of the Colorado Buck ammo that was discussed on here (cheaper than dirt) so I can practice a lot for cheap (~$38/box).

And just got a 375 Ruger Guide Gun for my wife for $850. Love that gun! It feels great, points quickly, cycles fast with the shorter bolt length... Just more limited on ammo as I don't reload. CAustin mentioned the same gun in 416 Ruger, in the book it lists for the same money, I suppose inventory might effect what you can buy one for.

All the best following your dream.
Bob
 

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Everyone has a different plan

I like your plan Bob, it's a lot like mine. I don't like to invest in guns and scopes too much only hunts and memories.
 

ActionBob

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I'm on a role here so gonna add one more thing for all the guys who want to live their dream hunts but struggle to afford them... Maybe not the right place but here goes. Passing on tidbits I've been told over time from people smarter and more successful than me.

I'm told that self made millionaires tend to be pretty tight with their money... So ask yourself how they became millionaires?

It is very difficult to work hard enough or enough hours to amass large wealth.. You have to sleep. However your money does not need to sleep... So invest it and get it working for you 24/7/365. Even small amounts add up over time.... Cash laying around is nice and enough for immediate needs is crucial... But if you are not earning at least the rate of inflation, you are going backwards. And you can invest in such a way to have it liquid within days (I am NOT very good at this).

Learn to prioritize, as Enysse pointed out this is and should be different for everyone. First ask yourself how much you really need something, then ask how much you really want it, and then ask what you are willing to give up to get it, and finally ask if you can really afford it.

And just remember that the more you concentrate on something, the more you are likely to attain it. You can do one thing better than 2, or 5 or whatever. And the likelihood of attaining one goal is exponentially higher than attaining several. So if you want an expensive gun and save up for it, you will likely attain that goal. If you want to go on an expensive hunt and save up for it, you are likely to attain that goal... However if you want to go on an expensive hunt and own and take with an expensive gun... Both goals will compete with each other and thus both will take longer to attain and in the end actually accomplishing the goal of doing an expensive hunt "with" that expensive gun becomes several times less likely to happen, not only twice as long... Let me try to explain that. There are a whole World of things out there you cannot control... Sometimes referred to as Black Swans. The financial collapse is an example. If it takes you 5 years to invest and save up for this theoretical hunt and you started in 2003, and went on the hunt in early 2008, you would have accomplished that goal.... But if it took you just 6 years to save and invest for the hunt and an expensive gun... You may have lost enough in the financial collapse at the end of 2008/2009 that you did not accomplish either goal. And another way to look at it, you are perishable. What if in the extra time it takes you to save for both, you get hit by a car and killed or paralyzed? Now that may be a bad example because we cannot live (at least I cannot) worrying about something like that... And if you take it to the extreme, you might never invest and spend every dollar living for the day! And then you will never attain your goal.

Now think in practical terms and factor in the odds.... Probably not likely you get killed or hurt severely, and lets assume you will not lose a bunch of money in the market. But you mentioned a goal of hunting the big 5 in Africa and a Brown bear. Brown bears should be available for some time so have until you are no longer physically able, likewise buffalo. However lions, elephants and even leopard could be lost as political pawns.... The elephant closings seemed to catch everyone by surprise. But the consensus is that lion is in real political danger. I want to hunt lion but would prefer to put it off another few years and work my way up to it... But I am being advised to it sooner than later and for sure in 2015.

If you really want to accomplish your goal of the big 5, I don't know what to tell you about rhino, but it seems you might want to concentrate on getting lion done. Think about what "concentrate" means... Not just thinking about it but what can you do financially and otherwise (legally please!) to accomplish it. What will you sacrifice to make it happen?
 
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enysse

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Part of accomplishing goals is having money saved and capitalizing on good hunts when they are available.
 

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Warren Buffet.jpg


Compliments of another AH friend;)
 

matt85

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it appears weve gone very far off topic. :ROFLMAO:

as for the choice of guns or hunting... i choose guns. i love to hunt but firearms have been my lifes passion and all things shy of my family take a back seat to my love for firearms. if my love for guns prevents me from attaining my dream hunts then so be it.

havin said that, if i cant get the bugs worked out of my double rifle then im done with double rifles. too much money for too many hassles. if my double isnt up and running properly by the end of the year i will sell it and replace it with a custom mauser style rifle in 505 Gibbs (i find the cartridge interesting).

-matt
 
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ActionBob

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Fair enough!
 

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it appears weve gone very far off topic. :ROFLMAO:

as for the choice of guns or hunting... i choose guns. i love to hunt but firearms have been my lifes passion and all things shy of my family take a back seat to my love for firearms. if my love for guns prevents me from attaining my dream hunts then so be it.

havin said that, if i cant get the bugs worked out of my double rifle then im done with double rifles. too much money for too many hassles. if my double isnt up and running properly by the end of the year i will sell it and replace it with a custom mauser style rifle in 505 Gibbs (i find the cartridge interesting).

-matt
matt i love doubles but i think your thoughts on a .505 are interesting as there were very few made originally, maybe a more interesting route to follow .......and you would end up with a very personal rifle :)
 

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