Mark Sullivan the Expose’

[grand veneur]

The only way you can stop a charging Cape Buffalo is a brain shot. They can run as fast as a quarter horse.
I guess I am one of the few that has had that experience . It was over 20 years ago _ Barrie Duckworth told me the same. It was an ass kicking.

Not necessarily, but it depends on the cartridge used. There is a reason why Mark Sullivan values cartridges like the 577 Nitro Express or 600 Nitro Express so much.

 

[HankBuck]

The only way you can stop a charging Cape Buffalo is a brain shot. They can run as fast as a quarter horse.
I guess I am one of the few that has had that experience . It was over 20 years ago _ Barrie Duckworth told me the same. It was an ass kicking.

@festuscat - was all good until you wrote Cape buffalo “can run as fast as a Quarter Horse” !! I don’t think you know as much about Quarter Horses as you might about Buffalo….or you’ve seen some very fat-old-or “dead” Quarter horses.

 

[CZDiesel]

Gday vertigoBE
I’ll probably get a little anal but always looking for a better mousetrap so the following can still be improved on what has been observed so far

Thanks for asking for clarification as my words are somewhat/sometimes misunderstood so apologies for that & in advance for most likely I’ll not relay correctly so pictures maybe my best bet ? & I’ll try to add those for additional context but please ask again if it’s not quite clear again as it’s quite interesting & obvious once you’ve seen it

The “thoughts “ I’ll stick to DG but ultimately it’s the same on the likes of a deer bullet etc just next level up with DG & not many comebacks when it goes wrong ( I’ve had to eat words on that a touch as one bullet company has turned this somewhat around on deer bullets so I’m not worried as killing is better so we all win but time will tell if he can replicate that ? )

Traditional: this is a lot of pills as they can’t withstand the pressures & why old school “ thoughts” hold up very well & its also the way we have been conditioned to think & in the case of rifles & more importantly bullets in the weight /speed & style of that which is so called needed to kill @ the highest level & in the case of this thread we see with respect to mark Sullivan he is somewhat stuck in the “traditional” sense as in his video in post #403
He states
The 500 pushes a 570 gr pill @ 2150 fps
The 577 pushes a 750 gr pill @ 2050 fps
The 600 pushes a 900 gr pill @ 2000fps
For all intensive purposes those impact velocities are the same
Now may have changed his thoughts as a few are seeing/pushing boundaries today of the old sectional density & can walk through water but not run analogy which still is fine as it works ( pill design comes more into play here but we are talking all same profiles so keeping that out for now )

Now in this case mark Sullivan is correct as the bigger pill diameter pushes more tissue sideways & produces a bigger wound hence the reason I’m guessing he’s seen the 577&600 do a better more consistent job of killing but watching everyone of those video’s your seeing no buffalo really hurt @ impact of the big bores

Non traditional : using these “thoughts” we need to clear our head first & understand where & what the pill needs to do in regards to penertration & pretty well it’s not go north to south of 2 buffalo & im happy if I can get to the hide like this from a frontal of a asiatic ( their hide is harder to penertrate & exit than cape ) to the rear end & I like to bust that backleg or pelvis if contact is made View attachment 696913View attachment 696911

Now by this we need the very best solids as a lot just won’t work satisfactory & anyway not really made by many anyway & brass is the top of the pack as copper even on very strong nose profile’s doesn’t stand up to well & sorts a lot of pills out

This has already started to be seen by some & let’s take the ceb safari solid as it seems popular around here for a good reason as it’s also what was in marks video in post #403 just need to address the less weight more speed mental hurdle
We have available @ our disposal in the 500 the 510 & 570 gr safari solids
Now the 510 can be comfortable run 300 fps quicker to 2450 fps MV

Ok so “traditional “ it’s regulated in the case of a double with 570 which is fine but a re regulation fixes that easy & checking impact point first would be needed imo anyway

Next part of the non traditional
try stopping one of those 510 gr solids in a buff end to end
So penetration requirements are fully met but still not what can be achieved but let’s stay with that for a moment

The 300 fps extra impact is extremely important as now we are getting into velocity brackets that have shown that once one gets to a next step up in velocity bracket we start seeing quicker kills but more importantly in this case the wound is widened considerably splitting sculls in various places where the slower pills punch holes through
Yes the 500 @ these speeds is starting to get there as the reaction of the bovines @ these speeds is one that shows a improvement but you still get a few that look unhurt on the non cns brain shots or body shots

Think of it this way do a bellyflop of a one meter diving board then go to the 3 meter diving board & see how much more pressure occurs on your body then go to the 5 meter then the 10 meter yep you can handle the lower ones of 1 & 3 but try functioning quickly off the 10 lol

So now we have the base started for the non traditional “ thoughts “ & that if someone want to take that to the next bracket level you’ll even get better

You see it a lot in these sub 2100 impacts on heart shots wounding capabilities as a lot of times you’ll just punch a hole clean through it that’s not a lot bigger than caliber yet the 2400 ish impacts watch the wound grow but overall 2650 ish blows heats up consistently & cracks skulls even on the non brain impacts


I’m wanting to know what 3 k impact will do in the 500 Jeffery & that is one that I’ll get close to once I figure a bit more out but a charge I’ve stopped wanting those these days
but I’ll happily take that ladies kids rifle over any of the bigger bores lol

Hopefully that explains a little more & not for everyone that’s for sure but it’s definitely a great alternative
Cheers

So what’s your thoughts on the 470 Capstick pushing a 500gr Barnes TSX at 2300 and opens up to double its frontal area or better?

 

[Frederik]

22 Pages of fast reading and still its going on!

Few years ago Mark was here with a Dangerous Game shoot hosted by Safari & Outdoor chain.
Our top shooter (Stuart Bell) from BASA who shoots a 500 NE and is probarbly the no.1 double shot in the world due to the amount we shoot was congratulated by Mark on winning the competition and in the same breath told him that the .500 was for Kids and Women.

I get it that he is a showman but he did not compete in the shoot so we will never know how good he actually is and from his videos he handles his doubles well.
Instead he could of complimented that we have several dangerous game shoots per year and how many competitors there were which in the end is good for his business.

The first time I saw one of his videso was in 1993 at the PH school which we all know is 10 days just to qualify in SA far too easy to do.
The impression it gave me then was why did he wait for the buffalo instead of finishing it ASAP?
Isn't it a show of gratitude and respect to finish an animal as quickly as we can?

That said I will leave it as it is and how I live as a hunter and yes he did bring a whole new market to the hunting industry same as Capsticks that we can be thankfull for.

 

[HankBuck]

22 Pages of fast reading and still its going on!

Few years ago Mark was here with a Dangerous Game shoot hosted by Safari & Outdoor chain.
Our top shooter (Stuart Bell) from BASA who shoots a 500 NE and is probarbly the no.1 double shot in the world due to the amount we shoot was congratulated by Mark on winning the competition and in the same breath told him that the .500 was for Kids and Women.

I get it that he is a showman but he did not compete in the shoot so we will never know how good he actually is and from his videos he handles his doubles well.
Instead he could of complimented that we have several dangerous game shoots per year and how many competitors there were which in the end is good for his business.

The first time I saw one of his videso was in 1993 at the PH school which we all know is 10 days just to qualify in SA far too easy to do.
The impression it gave me then was why did he wait for the buffalo instead of finishing it ASAP?
Isn't it a show of gratitude and respect to finish an animal as quickly as we can?

That said I will leave it as it is and how I live as a hunter and yes he did bring a whole new market to the hunting industry same as Capsticks that we can be thankfull for.

@Frederik - do you think that shooting “competitions” are about as close as we can get to actual Field/Hunting conditions? I know skeet and most Clay Target shooting was designed to simulate bird hunting situations and they certainly come close - except that the Clay Target rarely “changes direction” once it’s launched and in the air - the trajectory is consistent and repeated, the shooter Knows-what-to-expect.
I’ve only seen double rifle competitions on video and Never shot one, so I have Zero experiance with them - I do shoot skeet & sporting clays competitions. Any top Clays shooter is a good Wing Shot on most any bird and above most average Hunters. The skills required to hit a clay target usually transfer well into those required to hit a flying bird. I’m Not as sure the same applies to shooting a double rifle at a target - even a moving one - and a Buffalo CHARGING directly at You? I would think it helps and is the best practice you could get But targets can’t kill you, don’t get you in fear of your life, don’t get hit multiple times but are “wounded” and can still keep coming to kill you. Shooting under those conditions: Fear, adrenaline, can change how you react and shoot —- people “choke” in a regular target competition on some shots and that’s when their Life is NOT in danger.
I don’t doubt there are Double rifle shooters that are more accurate than MS and can hit moving targets with more consistency and Some might be as good killing a charging buffalo —- BUT Unless they’ve actually done that (Killed a Buffalo in full charge…when-it-really-counts and “under pressure”) no one will know. MS is “proven” in that regard and even his detractors acknowledge that. As far as him Not congratulating your friend properly on his fine shooting and teasing about the .500NE is for “kids & women” - likely his sense of humor, a little jealousy, bad form etc.. For me, I’d love to shoot a Double rifle competition and would be happy to hit any moving targets with a big bore rifle and finish any place but last..

 

[VertigoBE]

@Frederik - do you think that shooting “competitions” are about as close as we can get to actual Field/Hunting conditions? I know skeet and most Clay Target shooting was designed to simulate bird hunting situations and they certainly come close - except that the Clay Target rarely “changes direction” once it’s launched and in the air - the trajectory is consistent and repeated, the shooter Knows-what-to-expect.
I’ve only seen double rifle competitions on video and Never shot one, so I have Zero experiance with them - I do shoot skeet & sporting clays competitions. Any top Clays shooter is a good Wing Shot on most any bird and above most average Hunters. The skills required to hit a clay target usually transfer well into those required to hit a flying bird. I’m Not as sure the same applies to shooting a double rifle at a target - even a moving one - and a Buffalo CHARGING directly at You? I would think it helps and is the best practice you could get But targets can’t kill you, don’t get you in fear of your life, don’t get hit multiple times but are “wounded” and can still keep coming to kill you. Shooting under those conditions: Fear, adrenaline, can change how you react and shoot —- people “choke” in a regular target competition on some shots and that’s when their Life is NOT in danger.
I don’t doubt there are Double rifle shooters that are more accurate than MS and can hit moving targets with more consistency and Some might be as good killing a charging buffalo —- BUT Unless they’ve actually done that (Killed a Buffalo in full charge…when-it-really-counts and “under pressure”) no one will know. MS is “proven” in that regard and even his detractors acknowledge that. As far as him Not congratulating your friend properly on his fine shooting and teasing about the .500NE is for “kids & women” - likely his sense of humor, a little jealousy, bad form etc.. For me, I’d love to shoot a Double rifle competition and would be happy to hit any moving targets with a big bore rifle and finish any place but last..

"Are shooting competitions the same as actual hunting experience?"
No
But:
The best in dynamic shooting competitions (pistol/rifle/shotgun)
The best in fencing
The best in long range target shooting
The best in boxing
The best in mixed martial arts
The best in clay shooting

Are all likely to run circles around the average experienced shooter, hand combat fighter, hunter, etc (respectively)
It is not perfect, but it is practice nevertheless.

Why would Special Operations guys otherwise train in shoot houses, if it would not teach them the skills they use in actual combat.
Why would "Snipers" compete in long range shooting matches, if it does not translate into better performance in the field.

The more the competition or training approaches real life situations: movement, reloading, shooting from different positions, target acquisition when moving, etc. It will be a benefit.

 

[HankBuck]

"Are shooting competitions the same as actual hunting experience?"
No
But:
The best in dynamic shooting competitions (pistol/rifle/shotgun)
The best in fencing
The best in long range target shooting
The best in boxing
The best in mixed martial arts
The best in clay shooting

Are all likely to run circles around the average experienced shooter, hand combat fighter, hunter, etc (respectively)
It is not perfect, but it is practice nevertheless.

Why would Special Operations guys otherwise train in shoot houses, if it would not teach them the skills they use in actual combat.
Why would "Snipers" compete in long range shooting matches, if it does not translate into better performance in the field.

The more the competition or training approaches real life situations: movement, reloading, shooting from different positions, target acquisition when moving, etc. It will be a benefit.

@VertigoBE - agree, you’ve got to practice to prepare for real life situations and the more repetition, muscle memory - the more likely you can apply the skills in real life situations. Developing basic and advanced skills should include frequent practice sessions - it is the foundation needed to become proficient. It’s also about all you can do in order to prepare for possible Life & Death situations. The very few “trained” people that have also applied their skills in actual life & death situations (and performed well) then have “experience” and I think they are “proven” and likely add a level confidence to their skill set. I would think that is an advantage.

 

[Fordy]

Gday czdiesel

So what’s your thoughts on the 470 Capstick pushing a 500gr Barnes TSX at 2300 and opens up to double its frontal area or better?

I guess that’s another ladies or kids rifle lol

Sorry couldn’t help myself

Serious now

The Barnes @ that caliber & those speeds is going to be in a contender of showing some very good results against those slower speeds of the bigger bores

But where the Barnes has shown better results in the critters is once you get to 2400 plus impacts & here’s I guess the issue as I believe you can only get a 500 gr Barnes pill

Here’s where we can learn so much from the 458 cal
Originally everyone run the heavies & the guys like @Riflecrank have been on a crusade from my understanding to show where the gains can be made if we drop down in weight & increase speed & from what I understand he’s after is a 2500 ish MV ( he needs another 150 to 200 to get to the next level lol ) & most shots on buff he’s hovering around the 2400 plus impacts

So be lovely if you could get a 400 ish gr Barnes in the case of apples & apples of brands & same thing again watch the impact to tip improve vrs a bigger slower pill

So yes the 470 capstick is going to do well but not as well as it could & if we understand that in the world of monos that most companies are still fairly young & immature on their thoughts of what will kill better & in years to come unless it’s from a nostalgic reason you’ll see the wants of more customers wanting the lighter offerings & the level of killing efficiency will eventually be seen

The next thing I’ll keep onto you guys is the use of a simple addition of wax or like to the hp cavity to the Barnes as then I’ll pretty well guarantee @ your speeds you’ll get the Maximum amount of expansion under less than ideal circumstances that occur on a limited basis plus the added bonus of hydraulic pressure being present straight away not having to produce it then go to work ( that’s also not fully understood yet )

on a charging buff watch the hydraulic effect have a definite effect to a absent one

Here’s a medium size buff hit on the run by a 375 with a hydraulic effect this shot wasn’t a cns (autopsy confirmed it ) although very close to it but it polaxed him

Now look @ my references to poking holes on slower speeds

Or completely shattering /pulverising

Speed is the key in all those above but man alive you need a extremely well, extremely good designed pill that will give consistency shot after shot & on that the future does look bright on what some are doing

Cheers

 

[Frederik]

@Frederik - do you think that shooting “competitions” are about as close as we can get to actual Field/Hunting conditions? I know skeet and most Clay Target shooting was designed to simulate bird hunting situations and they certainly come close - except that the Clay Target rarely “changes direction” once it’s launched and in the air - the trajectory is consistent and repeated, the shooter Knows-what-to-expect.
I’ve only seen double rifle competitions on video and Never shot one, so I have Zero experiance with them - I do shoot skeet & sporting clays competitions. Any top Clays shooter is a good Wing Shot on most any bird and above most average Hunters. The skills required to hit a clay target usually transfer well into those required to hit a flying bird. I’m Not as sure the same applies to shooting a double rifle at a target - even a moving one - and a Buffalo CHARGING directly at You? I would think it helps and is the best practice you could get But targets can’t kill you, don’t get you in fear of your life, don’t get hit multiple times but are “wounded” and can still keep coming to kill you. Shooting under those conditions: Fear, adrenaline, can change how you react and shoot —- people “choke” in a regular target competition on some shots and that’s when their Life is NOT in danger.
I don’t doubt there are Double rifle shooters that are more accurate than MS and can hit moving targets with more consistency and Some might be as good killing a charging buffalo —- BUT Unless they’ve actually done that (Killed a Buffalo in full charge…when-it-really-counts and “under pressure”) no one will know. MS is “proven” in that regard and even his detractors acknowledge that. As far as him Not congratulating your friend properly on his fine shooting and teasing about the .500NE is for “kids & women” - likely his sense of humor, a little jealousy, bad form etc.. For me, I’d love to shoot a Double rifle competition and would be happy to hit any moving targets with a big bore rifle and finish any place but last..

I think we at BASA do a pretty damn as close as possible.
Running scenarios, forced reloads, shooting against time hits and other fellow shooters all seeing the action.
We add movemnet running or moving sometimes to 3 different positions in one range even did the reverse into a position the other while keeping your eyes on te target.

 

[HankBuck]

I think we at BASA do a pretty damn as close as possible.
Running scenarios, forced reloads, shooting against time hits and other fellow shooters all seeing the action.
We add movemnet running or moving sometimes to 3 different positions in one range even did the reverse into a position the other while keeping your eyes on te target.

@Frederik yes I’m aware of that and excellent way to practice, likely as close as it gets to a real charge….but it’s still a target and not a live buffalo. I don’t belittle anything about the top shooters in these competitions and wish I could shoot a big bore double as well as some of them. I don’t shoot ducks or quail with the consistency I shoot & break Clay targets and doubt anyone does, I think it will be the same on a charging buffalo —- practice helps and its really the best anyone can do to prepare

 

[Frederik]

@Frederik yes I’m aware of that and excellent way to practice, likely as close as it gets to a real charge….but it’s still a target and not a live buffalo. I don’t belittle anything about the top shooters in these competitions and wish I could shoot a big bore double as well as some of them. I don’t shoot ducks or quail with the consistency I shoot & break Clay targets and doubt anyone does, I think it will be the same on a charging buffalo —- practice helps and its really the best anyone can do to prepare

@HankBuck you must also put into consideration we live here in Africa we don't really need a season to open for whitetail and only have a week to hunt them in. A lot of us who compete in big bores hunt 3-4 times per year it might not be dangerous game but it's hunting in the field with a gun in hand.

These practises/competions we do is more for oneself and you will not believe what difference it makes in shooting fast and shooting offhand.

That is actually how BASA started for hunters to get to know there larger bore gear and practise with it to become better hunters.

You could also hunt buffalo with Mark Sullivan and make sure to use solids and see who will be the first to finish off the buff.

 

[PARA45]

I think we at BASA do a pretty damn as close as possible.
Running scenarios, forced reloads, shooting against time hits and other fellow shooters all seeing the action.
We add movemnet running or moving sometimes to 3 different positions in one range even did the reverse into a position the other while keeping your eyes on te target.

This is like IPSC but with a double. I love it.

 

[CZDiesel]

Gday czdiesel

I guess that’s another ladies or kids rifle lol

Sorry couldn’t help myself

Serious now

The Barnes @ that caliber & those speeds is going to be in a contender of showing some very good results against those slower speeds of the bigger bores

But where the Barnes has shown better results in the critters is once you get to 2400 plus impacts & here’s I guess the issue as I believe you can only get a 500 gr Barnes pill

Here’s where we can learn so much from the 458 cal
Originally everyone run the heavies & the guys like @Riflecrank have been on a crusade from my understanding to show where the gains can be made if we drop down in weight & increase speed & from what I understand he’s after is a 2500 ish MV ( he needs another 150 to 200 to get to the next level lol ) & most shots on buff he’s hovering around the 2400 plus impacts

So be lovely if you could get a 400 ish gr Barnes in the case of apples & apples of brands & same thing again watch the impact to tip improve vrs a bigger slower pill

So yes the 470 capstick is going to do well but not as well as it could & if we understand that in the world of monos that most companies are still fairly young & immature on their thoughts of what will kill better & in years to come unless it’s from a nostalgic reason you’ll see the wants of more customers wanting the lighter offerings & the level of killing efficiency will eventually be seen

The next thing I’ll keep onto you guys is the use of a simple addition of wax or like to the hp cavity to the Barnes as then I’ll pretty well guarantee @ your speeds you’ll get the Maximum amount of expansion under less than ideal circumstances that occur on a limited basis plus the added bonus of hydraulic pressure being present straight away not having to produce it then go to work ( that’s also not fully understood yet )

on a charging buff watch the hydraulic effect have a definite effect to a absent one

Here’s a medium size buff hit on the run by a 375 with a hydraulic effect this shot wasn’t a cns (autopsy confirmed it ) although very close to it but it polaxed him View attachment 701834View attachment 701835


Now look @ my references to poking holes on slower speeds View attachment 701836
Or completely shattering /pulverising
View attachment 701837

Speed is the key in all those above but man alive you need a extremely well, extremely good designed pill that will give consistency shot after shot & on that the future does look bright on what some are doing

Cheers

Hey Fordy! We have already gotten 2460fps out of the Capstick with the 500gr CEB solid and 2430 with the Barnes TSX with safe pressures. We stopped there because the recoil started to put it into the diminishing returns area…
Thoughts?

 

[Fordy]

Gday CZ

Hey Fordy! We have already gotten 2460fps out of the Capstick with the 500gr CEB solid and 2430 with the Barnes TSX with safe pressures. We stopped there because the recoil started to put it into the diminishing returns area…
Thoughts?

That’s better
The impact speed is the key here on terminals & that Barnes @ those MV speeds is going to be pretty reliable @ most impacts if we are talking buff & most ranges they are taken but closer the better

My Thoughts
For any Barnes I shoot I will not take any of these pills into a hunting position ( I do it also on culls ) without beeswax added in the hp cavity & overall when things go right with the hydraulic style pills ( Barnes hammer mcquire OEP atomic29 Leigh etc ) you really won’t tell a difference when things go correct it’s when it goes less than ideal or completely pear shape you will wish you’ve spent a couple minutes adding wax or like substance & for which the group of guys I rub shoulders with nearly all use a hydraulic form in the hp bullets above to help stop Murphy showing up sooner

With your most likely impacts & let’s just use round numbers
The ceb solid will be fine as it’s already in its terminal form so no need to go on with that as won’t matter as much on velocity impact but the higher the better so I’d say your load on that is very sound
Matching that up with the barnes @ your speed results are going to be pretty good & reliable also as above

But I’d not rate it the best , now we get to the whole numbers for a rule of thumb that’s showed itself to be pretty good @ showing lines

The mushroom monos on a whole need about 2400 to give the same results of impact to tip of the 2100 impacts of the shedding monos & this has shown to be the case from 22cal through to the .510 now there are always outliers that’s for sure but numbers of critters have shown this pattern

next part that one needs to be careful on is all pills are not equal even within the same brand & monos on the whole as a rule of thumb preform better by dropping weight re velocity increase = better preformance & reliability

Which is why my path of thought for you in your capstick is one your got a good combo no doubt but a next step up is the marry of the 460 gr raptor to the safari solid as this will do 2 things
Give better terminal performance re better velocity working thresholds which gives improved impact to tip results & the other is reliability in the field as it won’t matter what you hit with a raptor ( deflection aside but watch it mess a Barnes up also like it will most pills so no gain to one over the other here as pretty similar & better it not occur) like these I’ve not seen a retained blade/petal on them as they are a mechanical pill not a hydraulic pill & heres where that plays out in the field for consistency as without a doubt a mechanical pill is more reliable hence more consistent & only 2 brands I’ve seen to do this & ceb is the only one who makes them for big bores


In a bit of a summary incase I’ve confused the parts above
even if you have the Barnes & ceb raptor starting @ the same speed ( you should get more out of the raptor before the recoil gets to the same level ) you need the Barnes to gain the 300 fps before it’s getting too the rule of thumb on the shedding & that is most likely going to be further than what you’ll shoot distance wise
But add a talon tip to the raptor & that changes that above again but in all likelihood I don’t see the talon tip being needed for you but i don’t know how far your shooting & @ what so I maybe mistaken on that but those tips are pretty expensive for the gains you’ll most likely not see unless your shooting some distances

Hope I’m clear enough & helps ?

Just the fun world of terminals & always another view & those I’d also search out & just tick off the can & cant with those & im sure it will be happy days ahead for you
Cheers

 

[festuscat]

@festuscat - was all good until you wrote Cape buffalo “can run as fast as a Quarter Horse” !! I don’t think you know as much about Quarter Horses as you might about Buffalo….or you’ve seen some very fat-old-or “dead” Quarter horses.

I stand corrected.
I own 2 Percheron / Thoroughbred
4 thoroughbred polo ponies
2 quarter horse rope horses
I’ll ck the speedometers