Long Range Precision Hunting - Recoil/Caliber vs. Terminal Ballistics

[bobdahunter84]

I'm not going to be the guy that gives an ethics response on taking long shots at game. I like to assume any hunter in the field knows their own capabilities and the rifle's capabilities and will make a wise decision based on the situation at hand.

To answer the question regarding the best caliber for ballistics / performance at longer ranges, I'm a big Weatherby guy. If you're solely concerned about maximum velocity and energy, a Weatherby is generally going to give you maximum performance relative to other identically sized projectiles. Obviously the draw back to that is going to be the recoil that comes along with that. But I don't really think recoil is an issue for most adult size males until you get above a 300 Weatherby. I'm a big proponent of the recoil reducer in the stock in addition to a good quality recoil pad when you start talking about the punishing calibers. But I'm not really sure the calibers you are talking justify a recoil reducer in the stock.

For medium sized game with some punch, I like a 7MM Weatherby. If you wanted something a little bigger, you obviously can't go wrong with the 300 Weatherby, and if you're not re-loader the 300 Weatherby is probably the easiest to find factory ammo for in the Weatherby family.

If you do go with a Weatherby, I wouldn't cheap out and get the Vanguard. Do it right and get a Mark V. I'd rather have a used Mark V than a brand new Vanguard. And this is purely my personal preference--but I like the deluxe model with the wood stock. Not a fan of the composite / fiberglass stuff. And I think the wood gives you a little extra weight to help in the recoil department.

On a related point, in terms of rounding out my own collection I wanted something that would "reach out and touch something". Not necessarily in terms of shooting an animal at ridiculous yardage, but just a rifle capable of shooting at extreme distances with minimal drop for the sake of having it. I bought a Browning Hell's Canyon X-Bolt with a McMillan stock in 26 Nosler, and threw a Leupold VX6 4-24x52 on top of it. I'm very excited for the weather to warm up and give that one a try!

 

[IvW]

I own a custom 338 LM built on a Weatherby action that left the custom shop as a 460 WM...with a 30 1/2" sniper barrel, exibition grade stock, which is frighfully accurate sporting a can...I can shoot it 1 handed of the pod and has zero recoil....hit a 12x12 inch steel plate at 1200 meters with boring consistancy.....monster caliber great for steel....
Piece of shit as a hunting rifle....

 

[colorado]

I bought an $800 used Weatherby Mark V in 270 Weatherby from Cabela's gun library. I hit a scuba tank (from a rest) 5 times in a row at 845 yards using Weatherby factory ammo (150g Partitions at 3250 fps). Pretty pleased with it. It's a little scratched up but shoots real well. It's replaced my prized BDL in 270 Win I gave my son (still miss that rifle lol). It's got a Zeiss Conquest 4.5 - 14x scope on it with their Z-reticle. I'm still warming up to it.

 

[WAB]

My whole problem with this particular question and line of discussion is the initial premise - that someone who acknowledges he is "new to this" would somehow conclude that attempting to shoot game at 500 yards is the solution to being inexperienced in the region he is planning to hunt.

"That being said, I'd probably be a public land draw hunter out west. With limited time to scout with a young one at home and about a 1000-1800 mile drive, opportunities need to be maximized. Scouting out and patterning a bull elk or other animal for weeks just isn't going to happen."

Based on just a bit of experience, very few animals drop at the shot. The greater the range, the less likely that is to happen. As others have noted, nothing that can be fired from anything but a gun carriage hits "like a freight train" at 500 yards. That means you almost certainly will have to find the animal you shot. The likelihood that he will be lying in the middle of an open pasture is extremely improbable. I can not impress upon you enough how difficult it will be to find where the animal stood on another ridge or across a canyon - a 500 yard shot that you may have to walk a mile and a half to reach. It is very difficult to trail and find even a perfectly hit animal if one does not have a starting place.

I would use the rifle that offers you the greatest chance to put a bullet of sufficient quality and weight exactly where it needs to go out to three hundred yards and a bit. It would not be a 6.5. That will cover 95% of the opportunities you will have out west (or anywhere else).

This is very good advice. Two years ago I killed a good Coues buck with a cross canyon shot. He was DRT but the cover was 10+ feet high where he was bedded (this is why cross canyon shots are often the only solution with Coues deer). I told my spotter to stay on the glass and walk me in to it. I couldn’t see that buck until I was within 10 feet. I don’t know if I ever would have found it without a spotter.

Now think about @Red Leg’s scenario. A good hit on a bull elk at 500 yards can easily turn into a 400 to 500 yard death run. If that is into a blowdown tangle (highly likely) you have your work cut out for you to come up with that animal. I’m not saying it’s not doable, but your field craft better be just as good as your shooting.

 

[gillettehunter]

Where you reload, the .280AI or the 7 SAUM both deserve a good hard look. My SAUM with the Berger 180 VLD at 2900 fps has killed a bunch of African as well as US animals. It has a 8 twist which is nice for the heavier bullets as well as the all copper bullets. Either takes less powder than the 7mm Mag to reach similar velocities thus slightly less recoil.
Bruce

 

[Foxi]

Let me speak frankly.

Thinking you will somehow compensate for unfamiliarity with an area by taking shots at 500 yards at game is one of the worst approaches to hunting I have ever heard. I have hunted for sixty years all over North America (and a few other places) with and without guides and never even considered a 500 yard shot at a game animal. The longest shot I have ever taken at game was a Spanish Ibex at 300.

Steel or paper is a different thing. I'll happily shoot with anyone for a beer here with hunting equipment out to 500 yards and would rarely go thirsty.

The reality is that at 500 yards the average hunter will be lucky to find the actual spot where the animal was standing when the shot was taken. Following a blood trail requires finding blood or prints to trail. Your reasoning sounds like a prescription for wounded and lost game, not a solution to a short duration hunt in unfamiliar conditions.

1+

 

[Foxi]

Strongly disagree. I have a client who harvested a bull elk across a valley at 600 yds with a 300WM. Granted, with proper training and practice and he was with an outfitter. I also have a friend who harvested a mule deer at about 500-550 in Wyoming (IIRC) with an outfitter. I believe he had a 308 but I may be mistaken. Another friend took a black bear in BC at about 400 yds in a logging chute/draw which he showed me all on video.

I'm sorry but we're at an impasse here. Are long shots ideal? I don't think they ever are. To say "long shots are not hunting" then I guess everyone should be stalking game at 20 yards with a bow? If a hunter feels comfortable with the shot and expects it to be fatal with recovery...just because it's at 300+ yds you just wave goodbye? Sheep, goat, and pronghorn hunters would love this logic.

You do your best to put as little distance between you and the animal as possible but you should also have the ability to maximize an opportunity that you feel comfortable with and will still recover the animal.

I should also add that this isn't even a gleam in my eye. I'm realistically talking years between putting together a proper rifle, putting in the range time (we have up to 600 yds here) and then logistically planning a hunt.

Whoever thinks like that is not a hunter for me.
Sure, I know someone who recently shot a baboon at 1000m
I have been leading dogs for decades to search for wounded game.
Almost without exception, the shots are too long, because greed is greater than self-assessment.
But many are silent when it bangs and there is nothing at that distance.
"I missed a fox" is usually the answer.
He who believes will be blessed.
With your attitude, you wouldn't get a foot on the ground in our area.
The professional hunters in our mountains shoot red deer at 400m - yes, that's true.
But they are constantly in training and a dog is always by their side.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Thank you. Both require skill and I personally would like both in my skillset. People in this post seem to think one replaces the other when it does not.

It seems like the hunters that specialize in really long range shots start getting into things like 338 which then sort of becomes interesting for closer shots. I'd like something that meets the expectations on both fronts. I am heavily leaning towards 7mm RM. I am fortunate enough to have met a coach at Griffin & Howe here in NJ. He connected me with some of the people there. I am debating, over some years, of putting together a custom rifle with something along the lines of an action, barrel, and stock like a McMillan. I do have the ability to reload so that helps.

Just be aware it’s not something a couple classes and range sessions will provide. The challenge is the wind and learning to call/read it. Even with a Kestrel you need to know how to read and call it after 200yds. In the classes and range sessions you’re likely going to have someone experienced doing that for you. Your customer with the elk had an experienced guide calling the shots and I’m willing to be he was on the guides Gun so he knew the DOPE.

I’m pretty familiar with the Northeast and you’re gonna be hurting for places to stretch your legs and practice. If I remember right G&H stops at like 800-900. I think the only publicity accessible range in New England that goes out to a grand is in NH. You’ll need to drive there, a part of upstate NY or OH to practice unless you have private places to reach out to a grand. If you do have private places awesome, but then you’re not getting the instruction (especially in wind reading) and to find anywhere that’ll let you shoot a mile plus or has movers is another issue. If you want to be shooting 400-500 on game, you better have a lot of time shooting further (1000+). I’d suggest practicing to at least double the distance you want to hunt at.

Id echo the sentiments of a few others on 280AI. I much prefer this caliber over 7RM. I don’t have any personal experience with a 7SAUM but it’s a hell of a round based on the numbers and either I think are better than 7RM. The 338 Norma and Lapua are great for LR Hunting but so are the Cheytac calibers. None of them pose much issue shooting game up close, dead is dead. Like I said in my initial post, there’s no one and done gun. Customs are great, but most any factory gun today is plenty capable of shots to 400 if you’ve got the right load for it.

 

[318AE]

Strongly disagree. I have a client who harvested a bull elk across a valley at 600 yds with a 300WM. Granted, with proper training and practice and he was with an outfitter. I also have a friend who harvested a mule deer at about 500-550 in Wyoming (IIRC) with an outfitter. I believe he had a 308 but I may be mistaken. Another friend took a black bear in BC at about 400 yds in a logging chute/draw which he showed me all on video.

I'm sorry but we're at an impasse here. Are long shots ideal? I don't think they ever are. To say "long shots are not hunting" then I guess everyone should be stalking game at 20 yards with a bow? If a hunter feels comfortable with the shot and expects it to be fatal with recovery...just because it's at 300+ yds you just wave goodbye? Sheep, goat, and pronghorn hunters would love this logic.

You do your best to put as little distance between you and the animal as possible but you should also have the ability to maximize an opportunity that you feel comfortable with and will still recover the animal.

I should also add that this isn't even a gleam in my eye. I'm realistically talking years between putting together a proper rifle, putting in the range time (we have up to 600 yds here) and then logistically planning a hunt.

The wildebeest you are concerned about on another thread (?) is likely to be 80-100 yards…. With the right (and straight forward) choice of bullet etc, I think many here would be far more comfortable with a wildebeest at 100 yards, than an elk at 600….

As others have pointed out, there are some here with a tremendous amount of practical hunting and applicable competition experience….

 

[Inline6]

Just be aware it’s not something a couple classes and range sessions will provide. The challenge is the wind and learning to call/read it. Even with a Kestrel you need to know how to read and call it after 200yds. In the classes and range sessions you’re likely going to have someone experienced doing that for you. Your customer with the elk had an experienced guide calling the shots and I’m willing to be he was on the guides Gun so he knew the DOPE.

I’m pretty familiar with the Northeast and you’re gonna be hurting for places to stretch your legs and practice. If I remember right G&H stops at like 800-900. I think the only publicity accessible range in New England that goes out to a grand is in NH. You’ll need to drive there, a part of upstate NY or OH to practice unless you have private places to reach out to a grand. If you do have private places awesome, but then you’re not getting the instruction (especially in wind reading) and to find anywhere that’ll let you shoot a mile plus or has movers is another issue. If you want to be shooting 400-500 on game, you better have a lot of time shooting further (1000+). I’d suggest practicing to at least double the distance you want to hunt at.

Id echo the sentiments of a few others on 280AI. I much prefer this caliber over 7RM. I don’t have any personal experience with a 7SAUM but it’s a hell of a round based on the numbers and either I think are better than 7RM. The 338 Norma and Lapua are great for LR Hunting but so are the Cheytac calibers. None of them pose much issue shooting game up close, dead is dead. Like I said in my initial post, there’s no one and done gun. Customs are great, but most any factory gun today is plenty capable of shots to 400 if you’ve got the right load for it.

If the Trijicon Ventus will ever make it to market.... it will be an interesting time. 1. My wife is probably not going to be happy that I bought it. 2. Testing it's capabilities is going to be fun, especially shooting 22lr. 3. Version 2.0 will even be more capable.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

If the Trijicon Ventus will ever make it to market.... it will be an interesting time. 1. My wife is probably not going to be happy that I bought it. 2. Testing it's capabilities is going to be fun, especially shooting 22lr. 3. Version 2.0 will even be more capable.

Yah, it’s an interesting concept. The only issue I saw with it back when they first announced it (Pre Covid) is it’s only good out to 500 yards. The wind shift normally isn’t enough out to 500 where someone with even basic wind reading skill can’t get within the kill zone. It’s also not really at a distance where you’re likely to start experiencing multiple different wind directions and shifts. That’s what I’m waiting for and is going to be a game changer. Question is, at what point does all that new technology ruin hunting, or begin impacting seasons and bag limits. We’re already seeing state limiting or rolling back that kind of stuff because it’s having a negative impact on the population, or rather their ability to manage the population.

 

[Inline6]

Yah, it’s an interesting concept. The only issue I saw with it back when they first announced it (Pre Covid) is it’s only good out to 500 yards. The wind shift normally isn’t enough out to 500 where someone with even basic wind reading skill can’t get within the kill zone. It’s also not really at a distance where you’re likely to start experiencing multiple different wind directions and shifts. That’s what I’m waiting for and is going to be a game changer. Question is, at what point does all that new technology ruin hunting, or begin impacting seasons and bag limits. We’re already seeing state limiting or rolling back that kind of stuff because it’s having a negative impact on the population, or rather their ability to manage the population.

I don't know the developer personally, had a 20 minute conversation with the man. The test that they were doing was allowing for first round impacts at 1400+ yards at the FTW ranch. Having shot that range myself. The wind is known to be tricky. The explanation he gave was the the ballistics program would carry the solution to grater distances with more accuracy. Obviously it is like have a kestrel at 1,2,3,4, and 5 hundred yards. That make sense to me and with a 5k yard range finder built into the unit it should be accurate range wise.

That is a good question, like you stated some western states will not allow any electronic scopes (like the sigs). As far as hurting population goes. I'm not sure it will make much of an impact. People still have to be in physically good shape to make the hunts. People still take the hail Marry shots (we know the animal dies no one puts a tag on it). The price of entry is enough a very small percentage is will to invest that much money in that device. For what a LIDAR hand held unit cost, it is a heck of a deal. It is still a large amount of capital even if you have extra play funds.

If someone was able to build it in the 4k range we might have a different discussion. For now, I just don't see it being an issue.

That said, what I do feel like is happening. You have a lot of people shooting PRS and NRL matches building a skill set. One that they want to put to use. That I believe will have a bigger impact with what you are thinking (if I'm reading your comments correctly). When I started shooting field type matches it was a very small community. You knew half the shooters or more at every match. Now you have 2-4 X the people at the match and the OGs are not seen often. I think the first year the PRS started it was 270ish and now over 2k? (I am no longer a member). It is enough growth that Ruger made the PRS, Bergara is offering rifles both CF and RM to accommodate shooters, Daniel Defense built a bolt gun and the list goes on and on. Scope manufacturers are building a lot of scope for the tactical shooter/long range hunter. Business modles of companies have changed due to the demand of this sport. The people within that community come and go, 1. It becomes very time consuming 2. Get very expensive 3. It takes a lot of work and dedication to get to the top. With that said you still have a lot of people that gave it up after 2-5 years that put 10k+ rounds down range at targets from 25yards to 1760 (depending on the match).

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Yes

I don't know the developer personally, had a 20 minute conversation with the man. The test that they were doing was allowing for first round impacts at 1400+ yards at the FTW ranch. Having shot that range myself. The wind is known to be tricky. The explanation he gave was the the ballistics program would carry the solution to grater distances with more accuracy. Obviously it is like have a kestrel at 1,2,3,4, and 5 hundred yards. That make sense to me and with a 5k yard range finder built into the unit it should be accurate range wise.

That is a good question, like you stated some western states will not allow any electronic scopes (like the sigs). As far as hurting population goes. I'm not sure it will make much of an impact. People still have to be in physically good shape to make the hunts. People still take the hail Marry shots (we know the animal dies no one puts a tag on it). The price of entry is enough a very small percentage is will to invest that much money in that device. For what a LIDAR hand held unit cost, it is a heck of a deal. It is still a large amount of capital even if you have extra play funds.

If someone was able to build it in the 4k range we might have a different discussion. For now, I just don't see it being an issue.

That said, what I do feel like is happening. You have a lot of people shooting PRS and NRL matches building a skill set. One that they want to put to use. That I believe will have a bigger impact with what you are thinking (if I'm reading your comments correctly). When I started shooting field type matches it was a very small community. You knew half the shooters or more at every match. Now you have 2-4 X the people at the match and the OGs are not seen often. I think the first year the PRS started it was 270ish and now over 2k? (I am no longer a member). It is enough growth that Ruger made the PRS, Bergara is offering rifles both CF and RM to accommodate shooters, Daniel Defense built a bolt gun and the list goes on and on. Scope manufacturers are building a lot of scope for the tactical shooter/long range hunter. Business modles of companies have changed due to the demand of this sport. The people within that community come and go, 1. It becomes very time consuming 2. Get very expensive 3. It takes a lot of work and dedication to get to the top. With that said you still have a lot of people that gave it up after 2-5 years that put 10k+ rounds down range at targets from 25yards to 1760 (depending on the match).

Yes you’re understanding it right.

Think about it this way. As technology advances the success rates go up and the work before the trigger is pulled gets reduced. Whether it’s ranges get extended, patterns get known, less terrain needs hiking, and so on. As technology advances other technology that was once unaffordable also becomes attainable for more people. Thermals for example.

States manage their game populations based on a specific harvest number. This dictates license/tag quotas, seasons, lengths and bag limits. If all of a sudden you can take the average Hunter’s effective range from hypothetically 200 yards to 600 yards you’re going to increase the number of successful hunters. Even once’s who weren’t physically able to hang now have all day to cover the 400 yards after the trigger is pulled, call a buddy, use a vehicle, etc because they don’t need to worry about spooking the animal.

If this wasn’t the case states eliminating optics on in certain seasons, lowering tag quotas, shortening seasons, imposing restrictions on antler points, not allowing Sabots, pelletized powder, 209 Primers, Smokeless Muzzleloaders, getting rid of electronic optics, game cameras, drones because they improve the success.

I think it’s super cool but you’re right, it’s a game changer for someone who has the dollars to support the purchase.

 

[HookMeUpII]

The wildebeest you are concerned about on another thread (?) is likely to be 80-100 yards…. With the right (and straight forward) choice of bullet etc, I think many here would be far more comfortable with a wildebeest at 100 yards, than an elk at 600….

As others have pointed out, there are some here with a tremendous amount of practical hunting and applicable competition experience….

Confused on your point here? I think I've made it pretty clear that this (LR hunting) is something years off. I think by me being concerned about a wildebeest as one of my first animals should indicate to you that I really do want to make a good decision in terms of my abilities, practice, and expectations.

But like I said, I didn't quite understand the comment.

There's 3 camps here it seems:

1) It's not ethical, it's not hunting, you're wrong for doing it.
2) It's potentially not practical, there are many things to consider, you should do so before attempting and the opinion is it should not be done.
3) It's do-able but you should train, practice, and really cut your teeth on this concept before you attempt it.

This is all about getting better, learning, and honing. The problem is, if you want to learn how to golf can you do it without a golf club? I'm asking about the tools needed here to potentially/maybe/possibly/not for sure do this.

 

[MS 9x56]

300-500 yards is shooting. Don’t call it hunting as you are not giving the animal a fair chase chance that hunting requires. Shooting is an aquired skill. Hunting is a lifestyle.

 

[Nevada Mike]

For about 50 years my primary hunting rifle has been a 7mm Rem Mag. I have used it North America for deer and elk and in Africa for reedbuck to roan and zebra. It works very well. It is a round capable of killing out to, perhaps, 1000 yards. My average shot on game is about 75 to 200 yards and my longest shot on game was at about 325 yards. 400 yards is not long range shooting, but it is longish GAME shooting under field conditions.

I live in Coues deer country and use a 25-'06 Ruger No. 1 which is very accurate. As WAB said - you must be prepared to take longer shoots under these conditions.

That said, I own center fire rifles from 22-250 (coyotes) to 404 Jeffery (Buffalo and Eland) - but the 7mm RM and 25-'06 do most of the work.

 

[Flipper Dude]

My geezer $.02. The hunting of big game should not be about the shot. The shot should be made easy. The hunt should be about getting inside the animals comfort zone. Testing your stealth. Testing your nerve. Can you draw without being seen? Can you get into position? Can you hold your water? You’ll never take a harder, more pressure packed shot in your life than an elephant at 15 yards.

It’s a personal thing

 

[Flipper Dude]

Like Ron White famously said,

“ I had the right to remain silent, but I didn’t have the ability “

 

[C.W. Richter]

Consider What you're going to shoot and at what Range. You'll quickly find that the heavier 6.5 and 338 (hunting) bullets have a bit of an edge at long range (400-1000 yds for hunting). The bullet BCs and SDs are so high, these bullets maintain V at distance, causing them to drop less and hit (and penetrate) with greater E. You can find some good ones in 7 and 30 as well. You just need a larger case (NOT a needmore- A WSM/RSAUM/6.5-300 Wby, 6.5-284, et. al. These guns are super accurate, a pleasure to shoot, and deadly to <1,000 yds if desired.) I have no issues w/ the big 7s, 30s, 338s as I own 'em all, but you're going to be shooting 170+/190+/225+ gr bullets behind a lot of powder to achieve your goal. How do these big cannons shoot so well? Proper weight, stock design, accurization, quality scope and mounts. Again, if you're just taking <500 yd shots, you could use a properly accurized factory rig (anything 06 case-280 AI perhaps) and good quality ammo that the gun likes. Beyond 450ish, you should more seriously consider the above. 6.5-7-30 mags or 338 larger than WM. IF you're just talking deer hunting, a hot 257 can be the ticket (257 AI, 25-06, 257 Wby) also a pleasure to shoot! Factory Wby and Christiansen guns are shooters, but take a look at Gunwerks, Bansner's, Borden, et. al. custom rigs. As said above, if you're really going to get into longer range hunting, you'll have to handload to ensure success and properly hitting what you're aiming at, not to mention quality optics all the way 'round (binos, rangefinder, scope to match round.) I've shot a pile of game at long range (650-750 yds) but have also stalked animals to 10 yds with bow and gun, and each situation presents different challenges. Many are not capable of those longer shots (quality equipment and hours and hours of work are required to make your rig just right leading up to the shot.) LOL I suppose just buying the entire Gunwerks system would take all the fun out of it! We chose the longer path. Growing up in 1,500 yd farmfields country, it just came naturally...starting with woodchucks.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Watch a bunch of Argali/Marco Polo/Asian Ibex hunting videos and you'll see the Posterchildren for why the right rig is required for longer range shooting. Those with factory ammo wind up suffering (as do the 3-legged creatures they chase around for 2 days at a clip.) It's not magic. You also have to practice shooting...