Lion hunting SA

[ACE (in CT)]

As a new to African hunting guy (1 trip to RSA last July, 2nd in 2024), it's quite likely that nobody will pay much attention to my opinion, BUT since that never stopped me before ... Here goes:

As I see it, most hunters either don't care much about, (or at the least will tolerate) someone else's desire to hunt a certain way, or a certain animal AS LONG AS IT'S LEGAL. Oh, don't get me wrong, we'll tease the hell out of the guy who does it differently than we do, as in "Ya mean you shoot a crossbow? Hell get a REAL bow!" or "Oh you shot it over bait? I like to stalk them" or "Hell, use your hands to kill one, that's what a real man would do!"
BUT
If you are gonna piss on my back and tell me it's raining, then DO NOT expect me to turn around and say "yes that yellow rain sure is coming down"!

I see some of that in this thread, there are a few who either are trying to convince others that shooting a CBL is something more than it is. There are also those who feel that everyone should firmly state their support, since it's legal. Universal agreement is boring as hell, it's the spirited debate that makes all this so much fun. If I can't tease and make fun of SOMETHING about you, then I probably don't have much respect for you, or even like you very much! The people so thin skinned who can't take even a little ribbing? Now THOSE are the real enemies (am I right?).

The lies, and the stories about a Rouge Lion that jumped the fence or the videos of a sleepy Lion getting shot combined with a story that suggests it was an entirely different sort of hunt, I think THAT'S what flips the switch in some experienced African hunters.

Let's remember: An awful lot of people simply do not know that there is such a thing as CBLs and lying to the guy on Safari who is going to be shooting it is even worse than lying to the person looking at your mount and hearing the tall tale*

*unless of course you are lying to try to impress someone for the purposes of securing their affections, then is All Is Fair.

 

[revturbo9967]

Let's remember: An awful lot of people simply do not know that there is such a thing as CBLs and lying to the guy on Safari who is going to be shooting it is even worse than lying to the person looking at your mount and hearing the tall tale*

This is were many who are against CBLs stand. Get rid of the deception, tell it like it is. If this were the case I personally wouldn't care all that much about how its practiced.

 

[Shakka]

I don’t think a single person who has criticized cbl in this thread has done so because of a fence being involved (in that it’s the core issue). It does not matter if we’re talking 300 acres or 300,000 acres..

The criticism comes from how the lion is raised and then the time period between its release and when it is hunted. That and the fact that they aren’t being raised and released to establish healthy populations/prides which means there is no conservation value.

People are trying very hard to muddy the waters here. And using the same tired old arguments to do it.

I have made several comments here, but what you just said sums it up perfectly!

 

[Shakka]

This is were many who are against CBLs stand. Get rid of the deception, tell it like it is. If this were the case I personally wouldn't care all that much about how its practiced.

Another great post!

 

[375Fox]

Hunters should not criticize other hunters. As long as it is legal then everyone needs to mind their own business. Otherwise you are a tool of the antis!

In my opinion those participating and supporting CBL are an asset to the antis. Every major hunting organization (aside from the one making money on the practice) says the practice is damaging to the reputation of hunters. I see no faster way to create an anti than let the tourist that participated in cub petting know a hunter harvesting the same lion several years later. It happened in the past. Supposedly it doesn’t occur now, but there is zero verification on any aspect of these cats or this practice. All I see now is the messaging and marketing on these “hunts” is much more aligned to limit further reputation damage to CBL industry. Seeking out legal activities when they are illegal in the rest of the world isn’t something to be condoned in my opinion.

 

[375Fox]

So now that we've established that anti CBL hunters have no respect for those who have hunted CBL. Will there be separate tables at the DSC banquet?

The statement about having no respect for those who have shot CBL was made by you. As far as DSC tables, only if you are afraid to discuss the topic as seems to be the case. The pro-CBL crowd here seems unwilling to discuss any aspect of CBL besides the tracking experience and the low cost to me on this thread. That is a point of frustration to for me, but doesn’t go so far as all respect lost as you stated. No one learns anything on this forum if questions aren’t asked and hunters don’t disagree at times.

 

[Hookboy88]

I fail to see how chasing a management cow buffalo around on 4,000 acres is a contradiction to baiting a lion or tracking one that's just been kicked out of a pen. That cow spent all of her twenty-five years living on that acreage, which is far from a "pen," and I didn't shoot her over bait. The hunt involved some genuine stalking of animals that were genuinely wary. There is no contradiction and you only make yourself look foolish trying to make one up.

You fail to see the difference in hunting a wild lion and hunting a breeding operation pen, but put down the ethics of the former?
You do you I guess. Just don’t try to paint yourself as some big righteous, ethical hunter when talking to others.

I think you say things to get attention myself. I find it hard to believe someone would generally be as self righteous as you come off.

BTW I am glad you enjoyed your hunt.

 

[ACE (in CT)]

Ya know what occurs to me ... How would I (or anyone) feel if you were duped by a PH or Outfitter into shooting a Lion and then find out AFTERWARDS, that it was something quite different than you were told, Man that would suck!
I had no knowledge of CBLs until after my first trip to RSA.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

OK... I can't take it anymore... I believe it's supposed to be ROGUE lion, though I confess to being unfamiliar with any specific story about said lion. If it truly was a ROUGE lion, well, then, someone set me straight. And provide photos - that's be a funny looking lion to see. (that is directed at no one in particular; I have seen it in several places)

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

OK... I can't take it anymore... I believe it's supposed to be ROGUE lion, though I confess to being unfamiliar with any specific story about said lion. If it truly was a ROUGE lion, well, then, someone set me straight. And provide photos - that's be a funny looking lion to see. (that is directed at no one in particular; I have seen it in several places)

Maybe it’s a color variant??

 

[Tundra Tiger]

Perhaps @Wishfulthinker580 ... That is why I allowed that maybe someone can set me straight.

 

[TOBY458]

The statement about having no respect for those who have shot CBL was made by you. As far as DSC tables, only if you are afraid to discuss the topic as seems to be the case. The pro-CBL crowd here seems unwilling to discuss any aspect of CBL besides the tracking experience and the low cost to me on this thread. That is a point of frustration to for me, but doesn’t go so far as all respect lost as you stated. No one learns anything on this forum if questions aren’t asked and hunters don’t disagree at times.

My comment was mostly a joke to lighten the mood. But it also was kind of meant to say that this topic seems to divide hunters into two groups. The way I see it, CBL isn't much different than any other fenced hunting. If a sable is raised on a game farm, then turned loose on a 10,000 acre property to be hunted, does that make it any better than hunting CBL? That's where my disconnect is. And to be quite honest, the animals I've taken in SA don't make me as proud as the ones I've taken in Zimbabwe under different conditions. But, that doesn't take away the fact that I did enjoy the SA hunts I've been on. They were just a different way of hunting. I guess, at the end of the day, I just don't get that upset at how others choose to hunt, or what they consider hunting is to them. So I tend to live and let live.
Also, it's very easy to come on a forum and discuss these things over a keyboard. I'm sure that face to face conversations would go quite differently.
At any rate, hopefully we can all find some common ground somewhere, and meet somewhere next to a campfire some day.

 

[LivingTheDream]

If you hunt cbl you are a tool of the antis

All hunters are tools of the Anti's.

I had avoided making a serious comment on this but it all comes down to ethics and trying to agree on that is a never ending argument especially when it comes to hunting. You can't influence or change someone ethics since that is a personal matter. You could 10 us in a room and go around and pick a subject and you will probably get 10 different viewpoints on what is ethical.

There are more important things in life than trying to change opinions on the internet. Everyone is different and values different things. Be glad about it because it is a big world and those differences give us the opportunity for new experiences.

 

[MarkB]

Hunters should not criticize other hunters. As long as it is legal then everyone needs to mind their own business. Otherwise you are a tool of the antis!

From another repeat thread of high horse my morals are right and I will MAKE them yours, all the for or against any legal hunting and attacks and the pages of anti fodder above.

You Sir are an ambassador for our sport. Not only for your stand and front line position in the movie but also your best honest post this tread has.

Thank You.

MB

 

[IvW]

It is my understanding that each hunter is supposed to sign an agreement before each hunt which stipulates all the details of the hunt??? Or is this no longer the case???
The hunter knows before he arrives here that he is hunting a cbl or not??? Or was this just a decision that was made suddenly one morning at breakfast???
Nobody books a pg hunt and then suddenly gets offered a rogue lion or a lion that miraculously appeared from Botswana...
If hunters are so stupid to believe this then well I quess so be it....

 

[WAB]

People who say "I wouldn't hunt this or I wouldnt hunt that" are not real hunters Or they are dishonest and just can't afford the aforementioned hunt or possibly afraid of it somehow.
They have a narrow lane where they are comfortable and that is fine. We hear about these guys who go out west every year and just camp and never shoot anything and are happy. They sit around the camp fire and remark that they would never go to Africa to hunt. "No not me!" Then one in the group ventures to the Dark Continent and we know what happens next!
I suggest getting out of your lane and go bait for something lesser like hyena or even bushpigs. You will see the strategy and the work that goes in to try to get a split second opportunity at that animal. Then maybe leopard, but that is a difficult hunt and can seriously try your patience. I can tell you as A life long Hunter, trapper, and rancher that my lion hunt was absolutely indescribable. You can see this portrayed in Trophy the film. I describe it as the hunters Everest.

I disagree with this. I have hunted all over the world, and there are hunts that interest me, and those that don’t. Does this mean I’m not a real hunter?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

You fail to see the difference in hunting a wild lion and hunting a breeding operation pen, but put down the ethics of the former?
You do you I guess. Just don’t try to paint yourself as some big righteous, ethical hunter when talking to others.

I think you say things to get attention myself. I find it hard to believe someone would generally be as self righteous as you come off.

BTW I am glad you enjoyed your hunt.

No, I never put down the ethics of hunting wild lions. But I don't think it's very ethical for someone who shoots lion, wild or not, over bait to criticize the ethics of someone who tracks and shoots a recently released penned lion. There is nothing remotely unethical about culling an old cow buffalo on the range that's been on the range long enough to be wary and ornery. Those are wild characteristics. I pursued those animals on their turf and on their terms. I didn't shoot her over bait. How do you compare that to the "ethics" of either lion hunting scenario? There is no comparison.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

All hunters are tools of the Anti's.

I had avoided making a serious comment on this but it all comes down to ethics and trying to agree on that is a never ending argument especially when it comes to hunting. You can't influence or change someone ethics since that is a personal matter. You could 10 us in a room and go around and pick a subject and you will probably get 10 different viewpoints on what is ethical.

There are more important things in life than trying to change opinions on the internet. Everyone is different and values different things. Be glad about it because it is a big world and those differences give us the opportunity for new experiences.

Your first sentence is just a cop out, an old worn out argument that seeks to justify blatantly unethical practices that are antithetical to conservation.

As for the rest of it, conversations need to be had otherwise the silence would speak volumes. Regardless of whether or not someone’s mind is changed..

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

My comment was mostly a joke to lighten the mood. But it also was kind of meant to say that this topic seems to divide hunters into two groups. The way I see it, CBL isn't much different than any other fenced hunting. If a sable is raised on a game farm, then turned loose on a 10,000 acre property to be hunted, does that make it any better than hunting CBL? That's where my disconnect is. And to be quite honest, the animals I've taken in SA don't make me as proud as the ones I've taken in Zimbabwe under different conditions. But, that doesn't take away the fact that I did enjoy the SA hunts I've been on. They were just a different way of hunting. I guess, at the end of the day, I just don't get that upset at how others choose to hunt, or what they consider hunting is to them. So I tend to live and let live.
Also, it's very easy to come on a forum and discuss these things over a keyboard. I'm sure that face to face conversations would go quite differently.
At any rate, hopefully we can all find some common ground somewhere, and meet somewhere next to a campfire some day.

So what you’re saying is it’s no different than any other put and take operation? Not all high fence operations are created equal

 

[LivingTheDream]

Your first sentence is just a cop out, an old worn out argument that seeks to justify blatantly unethical practices that are antithetical to conservation.

As for the rest of it, conversations need to be had otherwise the silence would speak volumes. Regardless of whether or not someone’s mind is changed..

No its not. Was Cecil a CBL? I have a family member make PETAs website for shooting a giraffe. Not CBL. So not a worn out argument. To care about the opinion of Anti's is a losing game.

As you said not all put and take are the same, I think one can hunt a CBL ethically. You don't. Its all good man.