Lets stir a pot of hot steamy stuff

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Just read an interesting article in African Hunting Gazette- A PH kept track of the calibre and number of one shot kills to each calibre for about 40 elephant.

Winner was 375 H&H and the larger calibres were a significantly lower percentage. He put that down to two things- All 375's were scoped and less recoil. FWIW

@Nhoro
I think there may be a third reason
Less people own big doubles.
Bob

 

[Nyati]

@Nhoro
I think there may be a third reason
Less people own big doubles.
Bob

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen

Or, not all those who own big doubles are able to shoot them properly, as I have been told by a few PH´s

 

[meigsbucks]

Back around 1980 I got a brochure from the now defunct A-Square. In it was a quote that stuck with me: “Put a good bullet, in the right place, with the most power practical.” I reflected on that and revised it to: Put a good bullet (one that will hold together and give the expansion and penetration needed to get thru the vitals), in the right place (vitals), from a cartridge and firearm suitable for the game and conditions to be encountered.
We’ve all had game drop to the shot and a almost identical hit with the same rifle / bullet / range had the animal run 100 yds. Ultimately the outcome: dead critter, was the same.

 

[Nevada Mike]

I think Taylor was discussing Knock OUT power, not Knock DOWN power. This having to do with attempted brain shots on elephants. But, IMO, Taylor was about half full of shite.

 

[Vintageguy]

My two cents is I don't really pay attention to muzzle energy,...etc beyond legal requirements such as 375 being the "legal" minimum for example on dangerous game. To me it's all size and muscle/bone mass of the animal pursued and what bullet weight and design I need to render my desired result. Knockdown doesn't much play into it for me. For example, I have shot most of my deer in my life with a 280 rem load and gameking bullet and if you looked at the carcasses you would not be impressed, bullet sized entry and if there's an exit, about 50/50 maybe, it's about thumb diameter but every one I've shot dropped in their tracks with the exception of only one where the bullet struck a branch and was deflected. I've also used a 270 that would produce enormous exit wounds and never have had one drop in their tracks while hit the same way. They go only a few yards but never drop in their tracks.
I recently used my 375 on my first safari and the quickest kill was a buffalo bull that went down instantly, no kick, no death bellow, nothing. I hit him through both lungs and the TOP of his heart which I believe to be the best location to aim for on all big game. Then I had all 5 plains game animals, from impala to zebra in size, go short distances after hit with the exact same load and bullet with the same bullet placement. Some knew I was there, the buffalo did not, and some didn't like my red hartebeest.
My theory when I chose to take only my 375 and to take only 300 grain A-Frames, I did take 2 scopes, one zeroed at 50yds and one at 200yds, was this...this combo was a must for the buffalo and the jacket on the A-Frame would be tough enough not to expand violently on smaller game such as impala but the diameter was plenty large enough for a clean reliable kill and not tear them up in the process. I couldn't have been more pleased and would not consider using anything else unless I was hunting an area that would require 300 plus yard shots on smaller game then I might go with a flatter caliber that was comfortable to shoot in the lying prone position. In a nutshell, I want an accurate rifle, more accurate than me, and I want a bullet capable of reliably breaking the largest bone in a particular animal's shoulder while holding together and passing through its vitals. If it does that it will kill reliably. Problems don't arise from too much penetration but from bullets that break up on bone and thick muscle.

 

[Newboomer]

My two cents is I don't really pay attention to muzzle energy,...etc beyond legal requirements such as 375 being the "legal" minimum for example on dangerous game. To me it's all size and muscle/bone mass of the animal pursued and what bullet weight and design I need to render my desired result. Knockdown doesn't much play into it for me. For example, I have shot most of my deer in my life with a 280 rem load and gameking bullet and if you looked at the carcasses you would not be impressed, bullet sized entry and if there's an exit, about 50/50 maybe, it's about thumb diameter but every one I've shot dropped in their tracks with the exception of only one where the bullet struck a branch and was deflected. I've also used a 270 that would produce enormous exit wounds and never have had one drop in their tracks while hit the same way. They go only a few yards but never drop in their tracks.
I recently used my 375 on my first safari and the quickest kill was a buffalo bull that went down instantly, no kick, no death bellow, nothing. I hit him through both lungs and the TOP of his heart which I believe to be the best location to aim for on all big game. Then I had all 5 plains game animals, from impala to zebra in size, go short distances after hit with the exact same load and bullet with the same bullet placement. Some knew I was there, the buffalo did not, and some didn't like my red hartebeest.
My theory when I chose to take only my 375 and to take only 300 grain A-Frames, I did take 2 scopes, one zeroed at 50yds and one at 200yds, was this...this combo was a must for the buffalo and the jacket on the A-Frame would be tough enough not to expand violently on smaller game such as impala but the diameter was plenty large enough for a clean reliable kill and not tear them up in the process. I couldn't have been more pleased and would not consider using anything else unless I was hunting an area that would require 300 plus yard shots on smaller game then I might go with a flatter caliber that was comfortable to shoot in the lying prone position. In a nutshell, I want an accurate rifle, more accurate than me, and I want a bullet capable of reliably breaking the largest bone in a particular animal's shoulder while holding together and passing through its vitals. If it does that it will kill reliably. Problems don't arise from too much penetration but from bullets that break up on bone and thick muscle.

Yep. The King of Rifles reigns supreme no matter other opinions, calibers, muzzle energy, projectile or wishful thinking. The right cartridge in a 375HH is all anyone needs for anything.

 

[Woodcarver]

This thread reminds me of an article in The American Rifleman I read 40+ years ago. I believe the title was something to the effect of "Why do bullets kill". After much information about energy and biology, with numerous anecdotes about both large and small animals that either ran off or were DRT, the authors conclusion was, "we're not sure, but tissue damage seems to be the most important factor". My personal experience would support his findings.
I have made what looked to be "perfect" shots and had animals take off, and made what I thought were marginal shots and had them drop on the spot. Trailed animals for hundreds of yards to find the heart destroyed along with both lungs. Had a pronghorn drop in his tracks last weekend with the back half of his lungs pulp, but the exit was barely bigger than the entrance (25-06), and nothing else was touched, not even a rib. Experienced both effects with big and small calibers relative to the game being pursued.
Shot a bull elk in his bed at 40 yards with a 170gr load from a 30-30, twice. Looked like a big vampire had bit him on the neck. Two vertebrae completely shattered and two more cracked badly. He kicked and flopped his way over 100' down the hill until his antlers wedged between an aspen and the ground. Took a couple .38s to the head to finally get him to quit trying to kick me.
Had an antelope run over 300 yards in a big circle, almost right back where he started from. I was drawing a bead thinking I'd missed him (120 yards with a 130gr .270) when he fell over sideways. Heart and lungs were obliterated. "Perfect" broadside shot. Similar reaction from a buck deer shot at 30 yards with a 180gr 30-06 bullet. Don't know how far he might have gone if he hadn't slipped on wet quaky leaves and wrapped himself around another 40 yards from where he was shot.
All four of these were shot with appropriate for size calibers and the right bullet. All of them had no clue I was in the neighborhood. All had good shots put in the right place. But the reactions were very different from each. What killed them? Tissue damage... I think.

 

[Newboomer]

I just got home from a great hunt with Justin Daniel at Rockin G Ranch. I collected a red stag and and a big fallow deer. The stag I shot Sunday morning with a 30-06 180gr Barnes TSX at about 168 yds. He was standing behind a small tree and all I could see was from behind the shoulder back. I hit him about half way from hind legs to the shoulder just below the spine. He humped up and stood there for a couple minutes. Then he dragged himself ahead enough so I could put one through the shoulders and dropped him. 30 caliber entry and a thumb size exit for both rounds. The first one hurt him enough so he couldn't move. He stood there and kind of weaved back and forth on shaky legs.

We glassed a couple fallow deer shortly after daylight yesterday and cut them off. One was the big white one they called Big White. He stopped to browse about 150 yds away and offered me a slightly quartering toward me shot. Another Barnes 180 gr 06 dropped him in his tracks and he never even twitched. It took the top off the heart, through the lungs and exited just ahead of the left hind leg.

From both of these kills I believe shocking power accounted for good clean kills. The shock from the first round on the red deer pretty much immobilized him because it wasn't really a killing shot. The heart shot on the fallow deer had shocking power enough to destroy the top of the heart and plow through the lungs and innards.
Pix and report to come .

 

[CBH Australia]

Knockdown power.

 

[Zambezi]

You're looking for knockdown power to mean something is actually going to be knocked down by the initial hit of the ... whatever, and I don't know why. You're forcing a specific result when all kinds of varying possibilities and results are out there.

But here, picture all of this like this.

Imagine I had an F250, I put a 20' long 1/100" diameter spike off the front of it, you stand and I hit you at 100mph, but here's the thing, the truck never hits you, just the spike, what happens?

Now, take away the spike and I hit you with the truck at 100mph, see the difference?

Basically the same weight and same speed, what changed, area of impact. Bullets are tiny areas of impact, that will create a very different effect. That's one point to be addressed here.

Another, we use truck again, truck good, you know truck.

Truck has suspension, yes, yes, good.
Truck have rubber tire with air in it, yes, yes, good.

Both components absorb and tire area on road disperses the energy of your 7,000lb truck bouncing. Produces comfortable ride, yes, yes, well, relatively.

Imagine for a moment you have train tracks ahead, now these are those train tracks that are like a ramp and you've been dying to try and jump this, so you do.

What happens with proper suspension, suspension components, and wheels? You land, drive off, street isn't destroyed, you didn't get whiplash, didn't break your back or neck.

The energy of that 7,000lb truck traveling 100mph is still there, it's just absorbed and dispersed by the suspension and components, and tires, and dispersed over the area of the tire contacting the ground. Road isn't destroyed and neither are you.

Now, imagine you do that same jump, but we replace your tires with steel blocks the size of tire tread patch and you have no suspension, now imagine the truck is magic and doesn't fall apart so all of that is transferred to the ground. Potholes, smashed up pavement for the road.

You can imagine being in that truck as it slams and smashes down, the abuse evident, may now slam your head on the roof, break your neck, back, etc... Same energy, same contact area, very different result.

Now imagine that but with smaller contact area, or bigger, imagine skis of steel that are 3' wide and 100' long, the energy force being dispersed in such a large way the road may come out unscathed, though you in the truck will still feel abused.

Moving on:
So, using a steel plate as an idea isn't bad, as long as it doesn't give, as in, no dimple or bullet passing through. Energy will transfer in a pretty blunt way, picture silhouette targets that tip over... well, shoot one of those little 22 ones with your 458 lott, doesn't just tip does it...

And why using a human with a bullet proof vest won't work for your desired result, because behind that bullet proof vest is suspension, in the form of skin, a skeletal structure, liquid, organs etc... Not to mention the give of the vest itself.

The energy is absorbed in a different way, so the person or animal doesn't just go flying through the air. Even something as simple as picture someone pushing you when you're standing with your legs way apart vs together, same energy used, vastly different results.

Also, penetration of bullet through object doesn't dump all the energy, there is obviously that to consider as well.

So, just because the thing doesn't go flying, doesn't mean energy isn't a thing.

And most here know energy is big, stand tall with your feet together and fire a 500 Jeff that has a steel buttplate.

You'll likely see the animal knocked over, the animal being you. Affect would be much worse if your body weren't allowed to rotate, allowed to compress etc... to absorb some of that energy.

Does energy ultimately matter though, in killing an animal, sure, more disruption is more disruption.

Certainly it can be a HUGE component in a stop scenario. We see that in some of Mark Sullivan's videos, his first charge with the 500 NE, bullet hits between eyes misses brain just low, buffalo doesn't even react.
In later videos we see him use a 600 NE and a 577 NE, several instances where he misses brain but the animal is still incapacitated.

Like getting hit by Tyson vs your 12 year old daughter, Tyson puts you out, but your daughter is sleeping with your best friend.

What colour is the Ford?