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norfolk shooter

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Hi folks,

This might stir up some crap but I saw it on that youtubes the other day.


There are some points that make a little sense but my argument is if you can use a bigger rifle better with practice why not??
 
I don’t disagree with his final statement bullet placement is more important than knock down energy, but pretending there is no such thing as knock down energy is ridiculous. I’m not sure how he can hunt that long and say it’s not something he’s ever seen. Couple interesting hunting observations I’ve had, one was a zebra in Namibia and really a bullet failure. The bullet hit a little low on point of shoulder and just knocked him flat off his feet. We approached and he got up to run. Turned out the bullet only penetrated several inches. The knock down power was clear to see, but he’s correct it needed a shot with penetration through the vitals to kill. Had that been a 243 instead of a 300 though, it simply would have ran away. Another is I shoot many ground hogs with my 300 and 375 as practice. With heavy well constructed bullets they will run because bullet can initiate expansion, but shoot the same with a light bullet designed to expand and a 223 and they will run no where. He really needed to include a discussion of bullet performance to supplement his theory. Energy/knock down power is also pretty clear in the meat damage of using a smaller rifle vs a larger one, once the skin is off. An animal hit with a small caliber (same bullet, less energy) vs a larger caliber (same bullet, more energy) will take longer to die. I never thought this would be a discussion point?
To your point, why not use bigger. If meat damage isn’t s factor, I think people should use the biggest gun they can handle. However, I think many will over estimate this. There are many TV episodes and YouTube clips of “outdoor personalities” with big rifles and their flinch is obvious even though they pretend to be an expert with that rifle.
 
I stopped listening when he said he shot a jack rabbit with a 158gr bullet and it ran off....tv or internet guru....this from the same idiot that made a long report about the 375 H&H being a crap caliber just because he cannot shoot....idiot.
 
He has essentially shat on Taylors KO formula by saying what he has. I totally disagree with his comments apart from getting he bullet to the vitals. I have a feeling he has just said that as a dare
 
I don’t disagree with his final statement bullet placement is more important than knock down energy, but pretending there is no such thing as knock down energy is ridiculous. I’m not sure how he can hunt that long and say it’s not something he’s ever seen. Couple interesting hunting observations I’ve had, one was a zebra in Namibia and really a bullet failure. The bullet hit a little low on point of shoulder and just knocked him flat off his feet. We approached and he got up to run. Turned out the bullet only penetrated several inches. The knock down power was clear to see, but he’s correct it needed a shot with penetration through the vitals to kill. Had that been a 243 instead of a 300 though, it simply would have ran away. Another is I shoot many ground hogs with my 300 and 375 as practice. With heavy well constructed bullets they will run because bullet can initiate expansion, but shoot the same with a light bullet designed to expand and a 223 and they will run no where. He really needed to include a discussion of bullet performance to supplement his theory. Energy/knock down power is also pretty clear in the meat damage of using a smaller rifle vs a larger one, once the skin is off. An animal hit with a small caliber (same bullet, less energy) vs a larger caliber (same bullet, more energy) will take longer to die. I never thought this would be a discussion point?
To your point, why not use bigger. If meat damage isn’t s factor, I think people should use the biggest gun they can handle. However, I think many will over estimate this. There are many TV episodes and YouTube clips of “outdoor personalities” with big rifles and their flinch is obvious even though they pretend to be an expert with that rifle.
I'd assert the opposite is true - assuming there is knockdown power is ridiculous.

not sure how knock down power is even a thing. The idea that I could knock over a 200 lb deer that has 9000X more mass than a 150 gr bullet is a logical absurdity. And in general, the difference between big. heavy game and the bullets used to kill them is even more stark.

An 1800 lb cape buffalo has more than 40,000 times the mass of a 300 gr bullet. A 12K pound ele has almost 170,000X more mass than even a 500 gr bullet.

I do believe there is value in Talyor KO formula, but it ain't "knockdown" power. and FWIW, I think his real shot was at the Hatcher Theory, which is just absolute BS. We've known for decades that Hatcher is complete BS.

When I was a cadet in the Houston police academy, we watched a number of surveillance camera videos of shootouts in convenience stores and the like. One of them, the clerk shot the turd with a 44 Mag from about 10 feet. He didn't get knocked down, or even fall down. He *ran* outside to the edge of the parking lot, sat down, and bled to death

Similar to that, there was the story of a soldier firing an M2 (or some HMG) that catastrophically failed...the bolt was pushed through the rear of the machine gun and did a complete through and through on the soldier. No knockdown from a distance of about a foot, and I'd guess an M2 bolt weighs a pound or two.

My own personal experience - shot about a 150# 1-horned spike with a 165 gr 30-06 once. Shot distance was about 40 or 50 yards. The buck had such a lack of reaction to the shot, I was sure I'd cleanly missed it - he didn't fall over, jump, bleat, or even run off - he just continued walking like there hadn't been a shot 5 seconds earlier. Then I went to look for the blood trail, was so patent even a little kid could follow it. I recovered the bullet just under the offside skin. Surely THAT should have knocked the deer down since it "dumped all its energy into the deer."

If there were anything to the idea of knockdown power, the effect of physics on the targets would be consistent, and the effect(s) most ricky-tick ain't consistent. I'd bet a paycheck there isn't a guy on this forum who has knocked down *every single animal they ever killed*. We've all shot animals who just didn't know they were dead yet and ran off to die a couple hundred yards away.
 
I'd assert the opposite is true - assuming there is knockdown power is ridiculous.

not sure how knock down power is even a thing. The idea that I could knock over a 200 lb deer that has 9000X more mass than a 150 gr bullet is a logical absurdity. And in general, the difference between big. heavy game and the bullets used to kill them is even more stark.

An 1800 lb cape buffalo has more than 40,000 times the mass of a 300 gr bullet. A 12K pound ele has almost 170,000X more mass than even a 500 gr bullet.

I do believe there is value in Talyor KO formula, but it ain't "knockdown" power.

...

The knockdown power that Taylor is talking about is not shooting an animal anywhere on the body and knocking it down.

It is talking about "near miss" on a brain shot of elephant and effects of the various calibers.
 
I'd assert the opposite is true - assuming there is knockdown power is ridiculous.

not sure how knock down power is even a thing. The idea that I could knock over a 200 lb deer that has 9000X more mass than a 150 gr bullet is a logical absurdity. And in general, the difference between big. heavy game and the bullets used to kill them is even more stark.

An 1800 lb cape buffalo has more than 40,000 times the mass of a 300 gr bullet. A 12K pound ele has almost 170,000X more mass than even a 500 gr bullet.

I do believe there is value in Talyor KO formula, but it ain't "knockdown" power. and FWIW, I think his real shot was at the Hatcher Theory, which is just absolute BS. We've known for decades that Hatcher is complete BS.

When I was a cadet in the Houston police academy, we watched a number of surveillance camera videos of shootouts in convenience stores and the like. One of them, the clerk shot the turd with a 44 Mag from about 10 feet. He didn't get knocked down, or even fall down. He *ran* outside to the edge of the parking lot, sat down, and bled to death

Similar to that, there was the story of a soldier firing an M2 (or some HMG) that catastrophically failed...the bolt was pushed through the rear of the machine gun and did a complete through and through on the soldier. No knockdown from a distance of about a foot, and I'd guess an M2 bolt weighs a pound or two.

My own personal experience - shot about a 150# 1-horned spike with a 165 gr 30-06 once. Shot distance was about 40 or 50 yards. The buck had such a lack of reaction to the shot, I was sure I'd cleanly missed it - he didn't fall over, jump, bleat, or even run off - he just continued walking like there hadn't been a shot 5 seconds earlier. Then I went to look for the blood trail, was so patent even a little kid could follow it. I recovered the bullet just under the offside skin. Surely THAT should have knocked the deer down since it "dumped all its energy into the deer."

If there were anything to the idea of knockdown power, the effect of physics on the targets would be consistent, and the effect(s) most ricky-tick ain't consistent. I'd bet a paycheck there isn't a guy on this forum who has knocked down *every single animal they ever killed*. We've all shot animals who just didn't know they were dead yet and ran off to die a couple hundred yards away.
I really think you are on to something with respect to Hatcher.

The other example from modern movies that falls apart - quadruped or biped - is the effect of a shotgun blast. Love the ones where the culprit is thrown across the room. Now if those pesky charging leopards and whitetail would just react the same way.

The instant kills that I have had run across the caliber spectrum. A cape buffalo shot through the heart without hitting a bone with a .375; numerous deer some pass throughs - some not - many different calibers; assorted PG; an Ibex; etc etc. I think what really happens is that we occasionally short circuit the nervous system. The effect is obvious on a base of the neck shot that severs a vertebrate, but I think it can happen almost anywhere forward of the diaphragm. The mass or velocity of the bullet (within reason) has little to do with it - though everything to do with creating eventual fatal damage.

I totally reject the notion of shooting the largest caliber that one can shoot accurately. I shoot my 500/416 and .404 every bit as well as I shoot my .375's. I much prefer the .375 because is so much more versatile and so much more enjoyable to carry in the field. And it is absolutely lethal at everything I point it.

I really think the choice is rapier or broadsword - not sword or mace.
 
I shot a springbok with a 235gr Barnes TSX at 150 yds through the shoulders. He just stood there. The PH and I thought I'd missed. After about 30 seconds he fell over. No knockdown anything there. I've shot only two animals that fell in their tracks and they were spine shots. Every other one has run for some distance regardless of caliber. I think about the only thing with enough mass to knock an animal down would be cannon ball. It would have to be something with enough frontal area to move the object without penetration.
 
I'd assert the opposite is true - assuming there is knockdown power is ridiculous.

not sure how knock down power is even a thing. The idea that I could knock over a 200 lb deer that has 9000X more mass than a 150 gr bullet is a logical absurdity. And in general, the difference between big. heavy game and the bullets used to kill them is even more stark.

An 1800 lb cape buffalo has more than 40,000 times the mass of a 300 gr bullet. A 12K pound ele has almost 170,000X more mass than even a 500 gr bullet.

I do believe there is value in Talyor KO formula, but it ain't "knockdown" power. and FWIW, I think his real shot was at the Hatcher Theory, which is just absolute BS. We've known for decades that Hatcher is complete BS.

When I was a cadet in the Houston police academy, we watched a number of surveillance camera videos of shootouts in convenience stores and the like. One of them, the clerk shot the turd with a 44 Mag from about 10 feet. He didn't get knocked down, or even fall down. He *ran* outside to the edge of the parking lot, sat down, and bled to death

Similar to that, there was the story of a soldier firing an M2 (or some HMG) that catastrophically failed...the bolt was pushed through the rear of the machine gun and did a complete through and through on the soldier. No knockdown from a distance of about a foot, and I'd guess an M2 bolt weighs a pound or two.

My own personal experience - shot about a 150# 1-horned spike with a 165 gr 30-06 once. Shot distance was about 40 or 50 yards. The buck had such a lack of reaction to the shot, I was sure I'd cleanly missed it - he didn't fall over, jump, bleat, or even run off - he just continued walking like there hadn't been a shot 5 seconds earlier. Then I went to look for the blood trail, was so patent even a little kid could follow it. I recovered the bullet just under the offside skin. Surely THAT should have knocked the deer down since it "dumped all its energy into the deer."

If there were anything to the idea of knockdown power, the effect of physics on the targets would be consistent, and the effect(s) most ricky-tick ain't consistent. I'd bet a paycheck there isn't a guy on this forum who has knocked down *every single animal they ever killed*. We've all shot animals who just didn't know they were dead yet and ran off to die a couple hundred yards away.
I’d argue that the shock you see on meat when you shoot an animal with a small caliber vs a large caliber is a very clear indicator of the amount of additional energy transferred by a more powerful cartridge, regardless of the reaction observed. However, I think bullet selection plays a huge factor in this. Your example of a person walking away from a 44 mag and bleeding to death, was that an expanding bullet or a FMJ bullet? My two recent trips to Namibia, the only animal on both trips that required any serious follow up was a duiker, one with a 300 and another with a 375. They are simply too light skinned and bullet passed through without initiating any kind of expansion/transfer of energy even though both were good shots. Calling it knock down is probably inaccurate for this discussion but there is a transfer of energy that has a definite effect.
 
I'd assert the opposite is true - assuming there is knockdown power is ridiculous.

not sure how knock down power is even a thing. The idea that I could knock over a 200 lb deer that has 9000X more mass than a 150 gr bullet is a logical absurdity. And in general, the difference between big. heavy game and the bullets used to kill them is even more stark.

An 1800 lb cape buffalo has more than 40,000 times the mass of a 300 gr bullet. A 12K pound ele has almost 170,000X more mass than even a 500 gr bullet.

I do believe there is value in Talyor KO formula, but it ain't "knockdown" power. and FWIW, I think his real shot was at the Hatcher Theory, which is just absolute BS. We've known for decades that Hatcher is complete BS.

When I was a cadet in the Houston police academy, we watched a number of surveillance camera videos of shootouts in convenience stores and the like. One of them, the clerk shot the turd with a 44 Mag from about 10 feet. He didn't get knocked down, or even fall down. He *ran* outside to the edge of the parking lot, sat down, and bled to death

Similar to that, there was the story of a soldier firing an M2 (or some HMG) that catastrophically failed...the bolt was pushed through the rear of the machine gun and did a complete through and through on the soldier. No knockdown from a distance of about a foot, and I'd guess an M2 bolt weighs a pound or two.

My own personal experience - shot about a 150# 1-horned spike with a 165 gr 30-06 once. Shot distance was about 40 or 50 yards. The buck had such a lack of reaction to the shot, I was sure I'd cleanly missed it - he didn't fall over, jump, bleat, or even run off - he just continued walking like there hadn't been a shot 5 seconds earlier. Then I went to look for the blood trail, was so patent even a little kid could follow it. I recovered the bullet just under the offside skin. Surely THAT should have knocked the deer down since it "dumped all its energy into the deer."

If there were anything to the idea of knockdown power, the effect of physics on the targets would be consistent, and the effect(s) most ricky-tick ain't consistent. I'd bet a paycheck there isn't a guy on this forum who has knocked down *every single animal they ever killed*. We've all shot animals who just didn't know they were dead yet and ran off to die a couple hundred yards away.
I agree. I’ve shot two trotting cow elk at about 35 yards with my .338WM. Both were one shot into the vitals. Each of them still ran about 10-20 yards and were dead. They weren’t “stopped” in their tracks, but were still dead and didn’t know it. I’m not sure a larger caliber or cartridge would perform any different? You can only destroy the heart/lungs so much with one shot? I’ve seen similar one shot kills once with a .270 Win and twice with a .300WM. The elk still ran 10-20 yards and were dead.
 
To those that argue there is no energy transfer, what drives your decision to choose an appropriate caliber? You could shoot a deer through the lungs with a FMJ 223 and get full penetration through vitals but I think most would argue this is foolish. Same would apply to a Cape buffalo and a 30-06 FMJ bullet. I see no other way to explain it’s a combination of bullet performance, energy transfer, and penetration that kills efficiently.
 
I agree. I’ve shot two trotting cow elk at about 35 yards with my .338WM. Both were one shot into the vitals. Each of them still ran about 10-20 yards and were dead. They weren’t “stopped” in their tracks, but were still dead and didn’t know it. I’m not sure a larger caliber or cartridge would perform any different? You can only destroy the heart/lungs so much with one shot?
...I think about the only thing with enough mass to knock an animal down would be cannon ball. It would have to be something with enough frontal area to move the object without penetration.


Again, we are talking about "near miss" on a brain shot vs just hitting the vitals. On a heart shot the animal in most cases will run until the brain no longer gets oxygen.

Here is a section of the book that tries to explain what he means.

1631747323400.png


Read the book.
 
To those that argue there is no energy transfer, what drives your decision to choose an appropriate caliber? You could shoot a deer through the lungs with a FMJ 223 and get full penetration through vitals but I think most would argue this is foolish. Same would apply to a Cape buffalo and a 30-06 FMJ bullet. I see no other way to explain it’s a combination of bullet performance, energy transfer, and penetration that kills efficiently.
I believe your last sentence says it all.
 
I don't think there are a lot of consistency to terminal ballistics. Sometimes a deer or whatever gets gut shot and falls down and dies immediately. Sometimes they run off and live for 24 hours. You just never know. Shoot em in the head for instant results lol
 
I’d argue that the shock you see on meat when you shoot an animal with a small caliber vs a large caliber is a very clear indicator of the amount of additional energy transferred by a more powerful cartridge, regardless of the reaction observed. However, I think bullet selection plays a huge factor in this. Your example of a person walking away from a 44 mag and bleeding to death, was that an expanding bullet or a FMJ bullet? My two recent trips to Namibia, the only animal on both trips that required any serious follow up was a duiker, one with a 300 and another with a 375. They are simply too light skinned and bullet passed through without initiating any kind of expansion/transfer of energy even though both were good shots. Calling it knock down is probably inaccurate for this discussion but there is a transfer of energy that has a definite effect.
do they even make FMJ bullets in 44 cal?

It isn't about the transfer of energy, it is about the tissue destruction. if transfer of energy were a thing, then the Hatcher Theory would be correct. But we know, have known, for *decades* that Hatcher is pure bullshit fantasy.

a 30-06 works better on a deer than .223 because being bigger in diameter, it causes more tissue destruction.

your own results with duiker reveal the folly of the position that "energy transfer" has any meaning at all. all else being equal, a through-and-through destroys more vital tissue than a bullet that "dumps all its energy" in the animal. a bigger, longer wound channel causes exsanguination faster than smaller and shorter wound channels. period. full stop. you are conflating ideas.

you aren't arguing with me, you're arguing with physics. and physics wins.
 
Again, we are talking about "near miss" on a brain shot vs just hitting the vitals. On a heart shot the animal in most cases will run until the brain no longer gets oxygen.

Here is a section of the book that tries to explain what he means.

View attachment 424688

Read the book.
I agree completely with that example. The largest animals I've ever taken were elk. With thicker skinned game and/or DG, I'm sure the caliber, proper bullets and cartridge variables change or should change for the game hunted.
 
do they even make FMJ bullets in 44 cal?

It isn't about the transfer of energy, it is about the tissue destruction. if transfer of energy were a thing, then the Hatcher Theory would be correct. But we know, have known, for *decades* that Hatcher is pure bullshit fantasy.

a 30-06 works better on a deer than .223 because being bigger in diameter, it causes more tissue destruction.

your own results with duiker reveal the folly of the position that "energy transfer" has any meaning at all. all else being equal, a through-and-through destroys more vital tissue than a bullet that "dumps all its energy" in the animal. a bigger, longer wound channel causes exsanguination faster than smaller and shorter wound channels. period. full stop. you are conflating ideas.

you aren't arguing with me, you're arguing with physics. and physics wins.

Law of Conservation of Energy

The bullet slows as it travels through the animal. This means it's kinetic energy is reducing, but it didn't go away. It was transferred to hopefully the vitals creating not just a wound channel but causing the vital tissues to be destroyed due to the rapid transfer of energy.

Ever seen the lungs blown up in an animal you've shot? It's not just due to a bullet cutting a path through them.

Every seen a prairie dog vaporize after being hit by a varmint bullet? Energy transfer causes that.
 

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