Large caliber's on a standard length action

Discussion in '.375 & Up' started by Bos Javanicus, Feb 5, 2017.

  1. brettp

    brettp AH Veteran

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    So build a 416 Ruger on a M98
     

  2. Witold Krzyżanowski

    Witold Krzyżanowski AH ENABLER AH Legend

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    Very good choice brettp.
    Regards.
    Witold
     
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  3. Dave Hawkins

    Dave Hawkins AH Member

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    Well, this was an education for a novice in the area of Gunsmithing. Thanks for this discussion. It may have saved me a lot of money. Looks like there's no shortcut to a 404 Jeff built on a commercial Mauser action! Unless, of course, it's NOT a Mauser action like CZ or Winchester. I think I'll start looking at Remington 416's for my "heavy" DG gun of the future.
     
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  4. DWB

    DWB AH Veteran

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    I am pretty sure more 404 Jefferys out there built on standard length actions than on magnum actions......
     

  5. IvW

    IvW AH Legend

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    That is so but much less metal work is required than when doing the same for 416 Rigby.

    I would still rather buy or build one on a ZKK 602 action rather than a butchered K98. After all Rigby also used Brno actions on their rifles. Little bit of slicking up and you have an excellent base for a DG rifle in whatever caliber you prefer.
     

  6. DWB

    DWB AH Veteran

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    IvW

    You have actually convinced me that if I ever do build another big bore it will be on a Magnum action of sorts - So that part is settled.

    But I also think that everyone with 404's built on standard length actions should now not run and sell their rifles.

    As I said, mine is at over 600 full powered loads and still going strong.

    Going to shoot at BASA this weekend again without any concerns
     

  7. IvW

    IvW AH Legend

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    Agreed, thousands where built on standard length actions without any issues, I would however be reluctant to use a 416 Rigby so built unless it came from Rigby.

    Enjoy the shoot, I am out of country so will not be able to attend.
     

  8. 375 Ruger Fan

    375 Ruger Fan AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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  9. bilmcc

    bilmcc AH Enthusiast

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    I made the mistake of stopping into Hendershot's to pick up another batch of .358Win 225gr Accubonds on the way to a bear hunt last fall. They have walls full of magnificent works of the gunsmith's art. They slowed my travel significantly. Pricey? Yes.
     

  10. Bert the Turtle

    Bert the Turtle AH Fanatic

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    The magnum action didn't have to be stronger because the whole point of making the cases big was to be able to provide the desired velocity at reasonable pressures with the powders available at the time.

    The 458 Winchester was an early attempt to make a standard length round that could do the job. We all know how that worked when it started. 60 years later with improvements in powder, it works just fine.
     
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  11. Shootist43

    Shootist43 AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    I recently read an article that stated that a Remington P-17 action that was used on the what has been called the Lee Enfield normally used 30 -06 ammo. However the Remington version of this rifle was chambered for the Pederson Device. To my understanding this version i.e. Remington can safely and easily be switched over to magnum calibers without any work being done to the magazine. These old military rifles can usually be picked up rather cheaply.
     

  12. Ray B

    Ray B AH Elite

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    A friend of mine that has since passed away, had a Remington P-17 rebarreled to 375/404 Improved. As I recall there was very little done in modifications fro the change other than opening the bolt face. The action was designed by the Brits for 303 in the P14, I don't know why they insisted on building them large and strong enough for cartridges twice the size of the 303.
     

  13. Velo Dog

    Velo Dog AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    My understanding is that this huge action was originally designed around a large sized, prototype military cartridge, (similar in dimensions to the .280 Ross ?) and ballistically quite similar to the way later Remington 7 mm Magnum, semi-famous hunting cartridge of 1962 introduction.
    But WW-I broke out before the project reached full fruition.
    So, to meet war production demands, that rifle design was hastily chambered in .303, known as Pattern 14 and in .30-06, known as Pattern 17.
    In my opinion, it makes a fine choice for cartridges like the .300 H&H, .375 H&H, .404 Jeffery, .416 Rigby and .458 Lott cartridges, in custom built, African dangerous game styled rifles.
    Another thing I like about this design is that the "safety catch" blocks the striker plus, is dead silent to operate as well.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
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  14. IvW

    IvW AH Legend

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    They are strong actions and many DG rifles have been built on P14 actions. The only thing I do not like about them is the cock on closing feature. Have tried rifles on these actions but cant get use to that. I still prefer Mauser or Brno ZKK.

    Below is from the internet regarding these actions and may be interesting to share with some.

    The M1917 Enfield, the "American Enfield", formally named "United States Rifle, cal .30, Model of 1917" was an American modification and production of the British .303-inch (7.7 mm) P14 rifle (listed in British Service as Rifle No. 3) developed and manufactured during the period 1917–1918. Numerically, it was the main rifle used by the American Expeditionary Forces in Europe during World War I. The Danish Slædepatruljen Sirius still use the M1917 as their service weapon.
    When the U.S. entered the war, it had a similar need for rifles. The
    Springfield Armory had delivered approximately 843,000 M1903 Springfield rifles, but due to the difficulties in production, rather than re-tool the Pattern 14 factories to produce the standard U.S. rifle, the M1903 Springfield, it was realized that it would be much quicker to adapt the British design for the U.S. .30-06 Springfield cartridge. The Enfield design was well-suited to the .30-06 Springfield; it was a big, strong action and was originally intended to employ a long, powerful, rimless bottlenecked cartridge. Accordingly, Remington Arms Co. altered the design for caliber .30-06 Springfield, under the close supervision of the U.S. Army Ordnance Department, which was formally adopted as the U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, Model of 1917. In addition to Remington's production at Ilion, New York and Eddystone, Pennsylvania, Winchester produced the rifle at their New Haven, Connecticut plant, a combined total more than twice the 1903's production, and was the unofficial service rifle. Eddystone made 1,181,908 rifles – more than the production of Remington (545,541 rifles) and Winchester (465,980 rifles) combined.[2][3] The standardized production effort regarding parts interchangeability did not work out as intended. Winchester produced slightly differing parts, leading to interchangeability issues with the Remington and Eddystone produced rifles.

    Design changes were few; the stripper clip feed, internal box magazine, bolt face, chamber and rifling dimensions were altered to suit the .30-06 Springfield cartridge and the US pattern 5-round stripper clips, the stock was slightly redesigned lightening it somewhat and the volley fire sights on the left side of the weapon were deleted. The markings were changed to reflect the model and caliber change. A 16.5-inch blade bayonet, the
    M1917 bayonet was produced for use on the rifle. It would later be used on several other small arms like the M97 and M12 trench shotguns and early M1 Garands.

    The new rifle was used alongside the
    M1903 Springfield and quickly surpassed the Springfield design in numbers produced and units issued. By November 11, 1918 about 75% of the AEF in France were armed with M1917s.[4]

    An M1917 Enfield rifle may have been used by Sergeant
    Alvin C. York on October 8, 1918, during the event that would see him awarded the Medal of Honor.[5] According to his diary, Sergeant York also used a Colt M1911 semi-automatic pistol on that day.[6][7] (The film Sergeant York starring Gary Cooper in the title role, had York using an M1903 Springfield and a German Luger pistol.)

    After the armistice, the M1917 rifles were placed in storage for the most part, although Chemical Mortar units continued to be issued them. During the 1920s and 1930s a large number of M1917 rifles were released for civilian use through the NRA or were sold as surplus. Many were
    sporterized, sometimes including rechambering to more powerful magnum hunting cartridges, such as .300 H&H Magnum and .300 Winchester Magnum. It was so popular as a sporting weapon that Remington manufactured about 30,000 new rifles as the Model 30 from 1921 to 1940.

    Like the 1903 Springfield, the M1917 actually used the basic Mauser M98 bolt action design coupled with a few modifications. Due to the original P13 action being designed for a high-powered .276 Enfield round with a larger diameter case than the .30-06 Springfield, the magazine capacity for the smaller diameter .30-06 Springfield was six rounds, although stripper clips held only five cartridges.

    Both P14 and M1917 rifles are noted for several design features. The rifle was designed with a
    iron sight line consisting of rear receiver aperture battle sight calibrated for 400 yd (366 m) with an additional ladder aperture sight that could be flipped up and was calibrated for 200–900 yd (183–823 m) in 100 yd (91 m) increments and 900–1,600 yd (823–1,463 m) in 50 yd (46 m) increments. The ladder aperture sight moves vertically on a slide, and hence was not able to correct for wind drift. The rear sight element was protected by sturdy "ears" and proved to be faster and more accurate than the typical mid-barrel sight offered by Mauser, Enfield or the Buffington battle sight of the 1903 Springfield. Future American rifles, such as the 1903-A3 Springfield, M1 and M1 Carbine would all use similar rear sights. The front sighting element consisted of a wing guards protected front post, and was adjusted laterally and locked into position during assembly at the arsenal. The M1917 rear sight element was situated on an elongated receiver bridge, which added weight to the action, as well as lengthening the bolt. The M1917 action weighs 58 oz (1,644 g) versus 45 oz (1,276 g) for the 1903 Springfield.

    The rifle maintains the British cock-on-closing feature, in which the bolt's mainspring is loaded and the rifle cocked as part of the return stroke of the bolt, which aided rapid fire, especially as the action heated up. Most bolt action designs after the Mauser 98 cocked as part of the opening stroke. The rifle has a characteristic "belly" due to a deeper magazine, allowing the rifle to hold six rounds of the US .30-06 cartridge in the magazine, and one in the chamber. The M1917 Enfield like the Mauser Gewehr 98 had no
    magazine cut-off mechanism, which when engaged permits the feeding and extraction of single cartridges only while keeping the cartridges in the magazine in reserve. In a manufacturing change from the Mauser 98 and the derivative Springfield, the bolt is not equipped with a third 'safety' lug. Instead, as on the earlier Model 1895 (Chilean) Mauser, the bolt handle recesses into a notch in the receiver, which serves as an emergency locking lug in the event of failure of the frontal locking lugs. This change saved machine time needed on the rifle bolt, cutting costs and improving production rates, and this alteration has since been adopted by many commercial bolt-action rifle designs for the same reasons. The location of the safety on the right rear of the receiver has also been copied by most sporting bolt-action rifles since, as it falls easily under the firer's thumb. The trigger pull is ≥ 3 lbf (13.3 N). One notable design flaw was the leaf spring that powered the ejector, which could break off and render the ejector inoperable. A combat-expedient repair method was to slip a bit of rubber under the bolt stop spring.[11] A redesigned ejector, incorporating a small coil spring in place of the fragile leaf spring, was developed and can be fitted to the M1917 to remedy this issue.

    The M1917 was well-suited to the rimless .30-06 Springfield round which came closer in overall length and muzzle energy to the original .276 Enfield high-velocity round for which the rifle had been designed than the rimmed, less powerful .303 British round of the
    P14. The M1917's barrel had a 1 in 10 in (254 mm) twist rate and retained the 5-groove left hand twist Enfield-type rifling of the P14, in contrast to the 4-groove right hand twist rifling of the M1903 Springfield and other US designed arms. The M1917 had a long 26-inch heavyweight barrel compared to the lighter 24-inch barrel of the M1903 Springfield. With the longer sighting plane, the M1917 proved generally more accurate at long distances than the M1903, at the expense of greater weight. The M1917 weighed 9 lb 3 oz (4.17 kg) empty – the M1903 Spingfield weighed 8 lb 11 oz (3.94 kg) empty – and a rifle with sling, oiler, and fixed bayonet weighed over 11 lb (4.99 kg). The M1917's long barrel and issued 16.5 in (419 mm) blade bayonet proved too lengthy and cumbersome for trench fighting, while its weight and overall length made the rifle difficult to use for some smaller-statured soldiers.

    Many M1917 Enfield rifles were refurbished during World War II with newly manufactured High Standard barrels with 4-groove rifling and Johnson Automatics barrels which had 2-groove rifling
     

  15. ZG47

    ZG47 AH Enthusiast

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    @IvW Good research. An extra point to note is that:
    there two ways to modify the action to cock-on-opening, the right way and the wrong way. Details are provided on pp. 244-6 of Gunsmithing by Roy E. Dunlap. Anyone who wants a P14/M17 rifle with a cock-on-opening modification should read that entry before inspecting any rifles.
     

  16. CTDolan

    CTDolan AH Elite

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    Personally, I prefer that a bolt rifle cocks on the closing (as with the Lee-Enfield rifles). To me, they are quicker to cycle and can more readily accommodate a stout spring for the firing pin (easier to cycle with a stout spring). But, the M98 cocks on opening so that has become the norm (and, what everyone is therefore used to, and therefore likes).
     

  17. Shawn.54

    Shawn.54 AH Fanatic

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    As a person who decided to make a 404 Jeffery on a Mauser 98 action and doing it all my self except making the barrel I can say that you have to take some metal off the lower lug.
    Where the feed ramp meets the front of the mag box on a standard action the feed ramp comes to a sharp edge the box meets it. The extended box went past that between .100-.130 so what I did was grind/file the ramp to match the box once I got the box and ramp flush with each other I slowly put a small radius on the bottom of the ramp so that it would not catch on the cartridges I did not have to change angle in the ramp at all and since I didn't have a barrel yet I turned a stub and threaded it and bored it to cartridge diameter so I could make sure that the cartridge would go from magazine into chamber without hanging up.
    As far as getting the magazine to feed it took very little work to get it feeding and a new mag spring and it feeds great.
    The amount of feed ramp that has to be removed is thin knife edge and probably has very little effect on overall strength of the action.
    Shawn
     
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  18. DB404

    DB404 New Member

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    Shawn - your .404 feeding from that standard action is amazing. The .404 I had built on an FN standard length action pales in comparison. Well done! If you don't mind, I'd like to pm you re your magazine modifications.
    Dave
     

  19. GuttormG

    GuttormG AH Enthusiast

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    One Norwegian writer (Svein Solli) built and documented through a series of detailed articles a 404Jeffery on a standard M98 where all removal of steel was done in the correct end. I will try to find the articles and make some scans of the photos. Lots of work involved.

    One quite nifty idea is the short 404Jeffery; trim the cases down by 5 mm and it will fit in a standard action.
     

  20. Pondoro

    Pondoro AH Fanatic

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    Guttorm...it can be done but why go through all the hazzle/work when you, at least in Norway, can buy a ZKK 602 on the used market for $ 500 and make whatever big bore you want from it ? Perhaps the .505 Gibbs is the exeption due to the large bottom diameter of that round..

    I have a restocked ZKK 602 in .375H&H and one in .458Win. that is to become a .500 Jeffery. If a knowledgeable gunsmith smoothen up these actions they become very slick..

    After all, Rigby built rifles on these actions...
     

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