Issues Feeding CEB Solids

[lil 2 sleepy]

So I’m looking for a little help trying to get some CEB .416 400 grain solids to feed. I’ve got an elephant hunting in September and have never had any issues with any bullets feeding in the gun.

Situation is as follows:
Winchester M70 .416 Remington
.416 CEB 400 grain solids.
Normal TSX load is 3.59 COAL

CEB says to utilize data for other 400 grain projectiles and start low and work up.

I’ve got a Barnes TSX load with 74-75 grains of Varget that has done very well with a 3.59 COAL, so I was going to start there.

Here’s where it gets a little different. TSX are 1.60” in OAL and CEB are 1.50”. This concerned me a little so I checked the Barnes solids and they are 1.53”. That seemed reasonable so I figured I’d seat the CEB 0.03” Lower and have a COAL of 3.56”.

Everything loaded up fine and chronographed right at 2400. All this seemed great until I started loading multiple rounds in the magazine. The bullets on the right side of the box seem to load fine, but when the bolt grabs the round on the left side of the box it will jam every time. The rounds come in at a pretty decent angle and I believe the wide front face of the bullet is making contact with the rail and causes the jam.

After some investigation, it seems a lot of other people have had this same issue with M70s and Dakotas.

What is the safest minimum OAL? I think if the COAL was 3.50” it would probably simulate 3.60” in the TSX in feeding .

I dont have a problem decreasing the powder and testing on the chrono, but I dont have a way to check pressure.

I like the bullet but I’m not elephant hunting with something that doesn’t feed well. I know Barnes Banded Solids aren’t loved here, but there’s no issue with feeding on them.

 

[MacJenkins]

I would seat some deeper to see if it feeds. I personally have never loaded to any book OAL. I load my length to what shoots good and functions well.

 

[fourfive8]

There may be slight and very subtle differences in the design and mechanical loading geometry of various models/years of Win 70s. I have had two late New Haven M70s in 416 Rem. Both made between 2000 and 2006. Both rifles cycled any COAL, from empty case to max length with bullet of any profile liked greased owl sht. So I dunno? Might set rifle up in vice, cycle cartridges as per normal and use various angles of slo-mo camera video function to help analyze cause.

 

[Javaman]

I have a New Haven Model 70 in .416 RM and run 400 grain CEB solids.

Reloading notes remind me that I had a small burr on the front end of one of the rails right at the chamber that was causing me issues. Found by sticking my finger in there and getting nicked. Suggest you try that as well to see if you have an issue.

Also suggest pulling and checking the magazine box itself for any deformity … my hunting buddy has the same rifle and we found his magazine box was dented and deformed by cartridges banging around under recoil - replacement solved his feeding issues.

FWIW my .416 RM Model 70 (NewHaven) load is:

73.4 gr Varget going 2332 fps
F215M primer in wet cleaned and annealed Barnes head stamped brass
Trimmed to 2.830
COAL 3.590 lets me light crimp (Lee factory crimp die) just behind the first band (the one closest to the nose)

Seating any shorter would not let you crimp behind the CEB band - you’d be on the band itself which is not preferred.

If it feeds on one side then you know where the issue is … the other side, not in COAL.

Hope this helps, stay at it and report back!

 

[Javaman]

3.590

 

[Kevin375]

Maybe you can play with the COAL but I think the problem is elsewhere !
CEB are great bullets, but it seems the big meplat gives problems to several rifles.

I have used them in .375" in my Blaser R93 that feeds them smoothly and without any hicups with the CIP lenght of the caliber. When my PH saw them, he asked me immediably if I had feeding issues because his Mauser 98 K jams very often with such profil. He was sastified to hear my rifle didn't have any problem with them, because as you say, a rifle that jams in front of an elephant can be a disaster.
I think a good gunsmith can polish the feed ramp of your rifle to improve the feeding of such bullet. I met in the past a man who built a lot of rifles for Africa hunting and it was something he used to do each time.

 

[TOBY458]

Sometimes tweeting the magazine spring will remedy this. Most any Winchester 70 I’ve owned would feed most anything I put in it with a little adjustment.

 

[Javaman]

Sometimes tweeting the magazine spring will remedy this. Most any Winchester 70 I’ve owned would feed most anything I put in it with a little adjustment.

+1

 

[lil 2 sleepy]

I’ve pulled the mag spring and checked all of that. It doesn’t appear to have any issues.

Ive cycled A frames , bear claws, TSX and Banded solid rounds and all cycle perfectly. The CEB has dings on the Meplat face of the bullet.

The rail inside looks fine, but there does appear to be a touch of scratches right where the barrel screws to the action. I thought this was the issue but after investigation, the bullet jams before it gets that far. It appears it’s hitting the rail and then getting pushed out of the bolt face.

I’m going to experiment with shorter CEB rounds and see if I can pinpoint exactly where the impact issue is

This is especially concerning that hendershots has a disclaimer about them.

416 Remington Magnum Extreme Custom Ammo

416 Remington Magnum Extreme Custom Ammo Ammunition

hendershots.net

 

[cajunchefray]

I’ve pulled the mag spring and checked all of that. It doesn’t appear to have any issues.

Ive cycled A frames , bear claws, TSX and Banded solid rounds and all cycle perfectly. The CEB has dings on the Meplat face of the bullet.

The rail inside looks fine, but there does appear to be a touch of scratches right where the barrel screws to the action. I thought this was the issue but after investigation, the bullet jams before it gets that far. It appears it’s hitting the rail and then getting pushed out of the bolt face.

I’m going to experiment with shorter CEB rounds and see if I can pinpoint exactly where the impact issue is

This is especially concerning that hendershots has a disclaimer about them.

416 Remington Magnum Extreme Custom Ammo

416 Remington Magnum Extreme Custom Ammo Ammunition

hendershots.net

That Hendershots disclaimer is a bit disconcerting.
I would PM @michael458.
He did a lot of development work on CEB bullets and knows Winchester M70 rifles.
Is yours a New Haven rifle, or later FN?
I’ve owned both, and always thought the later FN rifles had closer tolerances.
I have not tried CEB solids, just Hornsby and Woodleigh, worked perfectly.
Am following with interest.

 

[cajunchefray]

That Hendershots disclaimer is a bit disconcerting.
I would PM @michael458.
He did a lot of development work on CEB bullets and knows Winchester M70 rifles.
Is yours a New Haven rifle, or later FN?
I’ve owned both, and always thought the later FN rifles had closer tolerances.
I have not tried CEB solids, just Hornsby and Woodleigh, worked perfectly.
Am following with interest.

And call Hendershots as well for their experience.

 

[roklok]

In my experience, CEB solids MUST be crimped between driving bands to prevent bullet setback from recoil in the magazine box. Just keep that in mind. Crimping on or in front of the forward band will cause problems. Also, the rounds may likely end up forwards in the box even if loaded to a shorter OAL.

I am currently working on building a Remington 30 Express in .375 H&H, and modifying the magazine and feed rails to feed the 375 with CEB solids. I had to relieve the front of feed rails and deepen and widen the feed ramp to reliably feed the CEB solids. I realize you are probably hesitant to do this to your M70, but that may be what is required. In this case, I was already modifying the magazine and feedramp, I definitely had to go a bit further to feed the CEBs. These pictures were taken during the process with carbide bit, before smoothing and polishing the ramp.

 

[baxterb]

Welcome to the flat meplat gang... I think Hendershots is correct to bring attention to the issue right away - it it not insignificant.

I think to get it right take more than just OAL. This is the ramp of a Masuer 98 9.3 that Echols helped me with, the marks are from running dummies through it: Woodleigh RN 250 and 286, Woodleigh 286 Spitzer, NorthFork 286, Barnes 286 FN Solid, Northfork 286 Cup Point (same profile as FN solid), Nosler 286, Barnes 250 TSX all intermixed. I don't pretend to know how he knew how much to take off or where, but as you can see, it feeds symmetrically from both sides.

 

[Altitude sickness]

My wife’s bone stock Pre 64 in .375 H&H did not like feeding CEB solids either. It would feed but not smoothly.

My Pre 64 in .416 Taylor feeds CEB solids and Raptors just fine. But it was a custom build.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Her Model 70 cycled and shot the TSX fine so that is what she used.

 

[Brandon.Gleason]

Interesting. The gentleman I hunt with uses a stock M70 Safari in .416 Rem Mag and it fed my handloaded 400gr CEB solids no issue? It was BNIB when he bought it in 2022, but I'm unsure if it was a vintage holdover or brand new production. COAL was 3.560" if I recall correctly.

I definitely had have work done to my CZ550 .458 Lott to get it to feed the 500gr CEB Solids. The .375 H&H fed the CEB's just fine.

 

[fourfive8]

FWIW. Here are pics of the follower as supplied in two different late New Haven 416 Rem M 70s. The follower spring is not super strong and holds the follower flush up against the underside of rails with light pressure.

 

[lil 2 sleepy]

So with a little more investigation shortening the COAL did improve the feeding but it did not solve the problem.

It appears that when the bolt face pushes the round out from under the rail on the left side of the box, it hasn’t grabbed full control of the round yet and there is some amount of slop in the angle of approach to the barrel. This causes inconsistent feeding into the barrel.

The CEB are wide and they just hit more often. All of the other brands seem to fall in that margin of error. I ran 54 separate bullets of 5 separate manufactures and sizes and they all line up within that margin of error. The 5 CEBs I have loaded are 25% feed.

I think it is a combination of a higher than desirable tolerance on my gun and a bullet that pushes the limits of its design in my application.

I’m going to take my gun to a good smith this week but I don’t know that it’s something I will be fully trusting by September.

My M70 375 seems to have a little less slop and looks like it would do better than the .416 with the CEBs

 

[Hunter-Habib]

My Remington Model 700 Kevlar Stock Custom in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum also used to exhibit a similar problem. It wouldn’t feed flat nosed solids or nickel plated brass. In 2023, McBride’s Gun Works in the United States did some serious work on the feeding rails of my rifle, which virtually eliminated both the issues altogether. They also fitted dual ejectors & an M16 extractor to the rifle, in order to enhance reliable extraction. I would highly recommend that you contact them.

 

[Atticus]

Following with interest. I’ve had feeding issues with CEB solids in my CZ 404. I’ve only just started working up the loads but it happened right off the bat.