Is Solid bullets the way to go in a .375 ?

[rafaellinne]

The Woodleigh Hydro is a solid - and a very good one - with which I have a bit of experience. Not sure what you mean by "breakaway".

Sorry. Break away I got from the swift bullet. I’m talking about those solids which supposedly create a wound channel bigger than an ordinary full metal bullet. English is not my first language

 

[rafaellinne]

Actually, for elephant you go back and get a proper elephant rifle in .416 Rigby or greater which you load with solids like CEB solids.

CEB .500 caliber 500 grain solid Bullet Performance

• Tanks
• Feb 18, 2020
• 1

CEB .500 caliber 500 grain solids recovered from elephants. The one on the bottom 15 meters...

Actually I take my .500NE. I was thinking just in case since I have a 375 h&h, too

 

[Red Leg]

Sorry. Break away I got from the swift bullet. I’m talking about those solids which supposedly create a wound channel bigger than an ordinary full metal bullet. English is not my first language

My observations using the hydro on bear and plains game is that it hits "harder" than a typical solid, but still performs far more like a solid than the toughest SP. It would be my first choice for elephant, but I would not use it on buffalo - particularly for the first shot.

 

[Fastrig]

Outside of some very specific cases, braining and elephant like Red Legs pointed out, I’d rather use a 300 grain Barnes or Swift A-frame 375 H&H bullet over a solid, personally like the Barnes the best. Want penetration and mushrooming that tears up as much as possible until that bullets stops. At the ranges Buffs are shot, that 375 is going to have most of its energy in tact and it should blow through bone and muscle at will with either of those bullets. Just my opinion but would bet on either of those rounds in 99% of the cases presented.

 

[K-man]

When I go with my .375, I have 2 boxes of ammunition with me. 3o rounds of Barnes Tsx 300 grain and 10 rounds of Barnes solids or Northforks. Very handy for a brain shot or one of the little antelope where you just want a small hole, Tsx for everything else. Don't overthink it too much, just use a quality brand that shoots well in your rifle and you will be just fine. A 300 grain in the right spot will kill everything you point it at.

 

[Viral_SIGness]

I'm guessing because he's new to this and going thru the same learning phase we all have. This isn't exactly a new topic for those of us that have been around, but it's new to him.

You are exactly right, I could not have answered that any better. I'm just asking about everything, because I want to know from people that have been there and do that. My Africa trip is 2 years away, but I can almost assure you, I will be taking 300 grain Barnes TSX with me.

 

[Viral_SIGness]

Actually, for elephant you go back and get a proper elephant rifle in .416 Rigby or greater which you load with solids like CEB solids.

CEB .500 caliber 500 grain solid Bullet Performance

• Tanks
• Feb 18, 2020
• 1

CEB .500 caliber 500 grain solids recovered from elephants. The one on the bottom 15 meters...

My PH might disagree with you about the .375 not being proper for elephant. @Andries Marais

 

[Red Leg]

My PH might disagree with you about the .375 not being proper for elephant. @Andries Marais

Yep. Quite a few would disagree with that statement. In the last 75 years, I suspect more elephant have been killed by .375's than the other calibers combined. A 300 gr solid will easily manage a frontal brain shot and does so many times every year. I know two PH's in Mozambique who use a .375 for back-up out of choice rather than necessity. Both believe one has to get larger than a .500 to hope to "stun" an elephant, so they would rather maximise accuracy instead. They have each accounted for a lot of elephant less than perfectly shot by their clients. One has told me several times that his worst scenario is a client showing up for his first bull with his new double rifle.

 

[cpr0312]

A solid from a .375 is “best” for a duiker or for braining an elephant. Otherwise a quality SP like a 300 gr Swift A Frame or TSX is a much better choice. In fact, with quality SP’s, I don’t use a solid in the magazine for a follow-up shot either. They drive deep and cause significantly more damage than a solid. Miss the shoulder, graze a lung, or even the heart with a solid and you may never see that bull again. They seem to have an odd habit of not providing the perfect shot presentation. There are all sorts of multiple tiers of non-perfectly placed shots.

+1 on what he said!

 

[Tanks]

... I know two PH's in Mozambique who use a .375 for back-up out of choice rather than necessity. Both believe one has to get larger than a .500 to hope to "stun" an elephant, so they would rather maximise accuracy instead. They have each accounted for a lot of elephant less than perfectly shot by their clients. ...

I made the comment in jest as it is an old argument. That being said, I'd submit that using a larger DG caliber and being accurate are not mutually exclusive. The knock-out factor is from Taylor's book and research, they can believe it or not.

 

[Red Leg]

I made the comment in jest as it is an old argument. That being said, I'd submit that using a larger DG caliber and being accurate are not mutually exclusive. The knock-out factor is from Taylor's book and research, they can believe it or not.

I didn’t say it was. I am very accurate with both my .470 and 500/416. Not everyone is. They do not believe, based on a bit of experience, that a 40 anything will typically “stun” or turn an elephant. With such a rifle he has to be brained if in-bound. They both would agree a .577 can Stun one if properly loaded. I think I can guarantee you neither has read Taylor or is likely to do so.

I think the debate, even if we could resurrect old Pondoro, is with respect to the .500?

Whether we agree or agree to disagree. Lots of jumbo will continue to be cleanly killed by the .375.

And to be fair, let me add, were I going after a bull tomorrow, I would take the .470 or 500/416 - probably the latter - it is the S2. I am just not entirely certain the average hunter is best equipped with such a caliber.

 

[Fastrig]

I didn’t say it was. I am very accurate with both my .470 and 500/416. Not everyone is. They do not believe, based on a bit of experience, that a 40 anything will typically “stun” or turn an elephant. With such a rifle he has to be brained if in-bound. They both would agree a .577 can Stun one if properly loaded. I think I can guarantee you neither has read Taylor or is likely to do so.

I think the debate, even if we could resurrect old Pondoro, is with respect to the .500?

Whether we agree or agree to disagree. Lots of jumbo will continue to be cleanly killed by the .375.

And to be fair, let me add, were I going after a bull tomorrow, I would take the .470 or 500/416 - probably the latter - it is the S2. I am just not entirely certain the average hunter is best equipped with such a caliber.

Don’t know if I’m an average or above average hunter, been hunting for 40 years but that doesn’t equate to squat outside of I’m getting older...do my best and more often than not come home with what I went after. That said, I’d take the 375 H&H as I’m not experienced with those big bores but know I can accurately and efficiently handle a 375 H&H. IMO, the rifle and ammo must be sufficient to handle the job (not elk hunting with a 22 LR), but the right rifle is the one you can handle well and shoot in a tight kill circle consistently at 50/100/150/200 yards/meters (pick your measure). I can’t do that with a 500/416 or a 470 so have no business carrying one in the field, just be a danger to myself and those with me.

 

[Tanks]

... but the right rifle is the one you can handle well and shoot in a tight kill circle consistently at 50/100/150/200 yards/meters (pick your measure). I can’t do that with a 500/416 or a 470 so have no business carrying one in the field, just be a danger to myself and those with me.

If you are using a double rifle then you are not shooting at 100/150/200 yards. The standard regulation is 2" at 50 meters. If your PH has mentioned you taking a 100+ yard shot at elephants, you need to find a new PH.

In regards to larger calibers in scoped rifles there is no difference in marksmanship requirements between a .22 and a .458 Lott. The only difference is the perceived recoil which you are not even going to feel in the field. That doesn't mean you don't need to practice with your big bore, you need to, but marksmanship fundamentals do not change with caliber. The biggest difference is the stance as you can see from this picture. Weight is more forward to handle the recoil, and elbow is up to make a good pocket for the rifle butt. Whether you make use of a hasty sling is up to you. I personally do on big bores.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

If you are using a double rifle then you are not shooting at 100/150/200 yards. The standard regulation is 2" at 50 meters. If your PH has mentioned you taking a 100+ yard shot at elephants, you need to find a new PH.

In regards to larger calibers in scoped rifles there is no difference in marksmanship requirements between a .22 and a .458 Lott. The only difference is the perceived recoil which you are not even going to feel in the field. That doesn't mean you don't need to practice with your big bore, you need to, but marksmanship fundamentals do not change with caliber. The biggest difference is the stance as you can see from this picture. Weight is more forward to handle the recoil, and elbow is up to make a good pocket for the rifle butt. Whether you make use of a hasty sling is up to you. I personally do on big bores.

Think I recognize that as a B&M caliber rifle.

 

[Tanks]

Think I recognize that as a B&M caliber rifle.

Short 18" barrel gave it away? I think that's a .458 B&M, same as yours.

 

[Fastrig]

If you are using a double rifle then you are not shooting at 100/150/200 yards. The standard regulation is 2" at 50 meters. If your PH has mentioned you taking a 100+ yard shot at elephants, you need to find a new PH.

In regards to larger calibers in scoped rifles there is no difference in marksmanship requirements between a .22 and a .458 Lott. The only difference is the perceived recoil which you are not even going to feel in the field. That doesn't mean you don't need to practice with your big bore, you need to, but marksmanship fundamentals do not change with caliber. The biggest difference is the stance as you can see from this picture. Weight is more forward to handle the recoil, and elbow is up to make a good pocket for the rifle butt. Whether you make use of a hasty sling is up to you. I personally do on big bores.

Don’t own a double and I’m not even remotely interested in shooting an elephant, rhino, or hippo.. Just not something that appeals to me. My PH is talking to me about plains game as that I am interested in. He said shoot well out to 200 meters off sticks and you will be fine. Seems like sound advice to me. Would like to go after a buff at some point and I’d take a 375 H&H with 300 grain Barnes TSX ammo for that hunt, see no need for a portable cannon. The other two I’d like to go after someday are a lion and a leopard. 375 H&H or 9.3x62 for both of those is plenty, would even use a 338 if it were legal. I’d still like to get a 404J and would take that over the 375 for the buff, more because of its cool factor than anything else. My right shoulder is a torn up mess from too many years of abuse and a 404J is about as much as it can handle. Those big bores would probably push it right out its socket.

 

[Tanks]

Don’t own a double and I’m not even remotely interested in shooting an elephant, rhino, or hippo.. Just not something that appeals to me. My PH is talking to me about plains game as that I am interested in. He said shoot well out to 200 meters off sticks and you will be fine....

Well, then why comment on the suitability of larger calibers etc., no one is saying one has to use big bores for PG. Though I do, but I use lighter expanding bullets (225 gr in .416 and 258 gr. in .458).

 

[One Day...]

It all depends on what you hunt, but the general answer (i.e. the one applicable in the most cases) is "no" solids are not the default way to go in a .375 H&H.

Big cats (leopard & lion): the consensus is on a rather soft expanding bullet. It needs to open immediately as there is much less meat and bones to go through. Personal choice: Nosler Partition (NP).

Buffalo: now that expanding bullets can be relied upon to also penetrate deep, the consensus is on a tough expanding bullet. It needs to plow deep through a lot of meat and bones. There is too much risk of a solid going through and wounding a second animal in a herd when an A Frame or TSX does the job just as well, or actually better, and generally stays within. Personal choice: .470 NE because I like to hunt buff really up close and personal and I am an incurable hopeless romantic, but if I used a .375 it would be A Frame or hollow point controlled expansion mono-metal such as TSX.

Note: many PH / outfitters will not allow clients to use solids on buff anymore. They made sense when softs could not be relied upon to drive deep, but these times are over.

Heavies (elephant, hippo, OK, let's pretend: rhino): solids. An expanding bullet generally will not penetrate enough. The .375 will kill them very dead, but the .40+ and 45+ will hit them a lot harder, especially on body shots.

Tiny Tens: as stated by Red Leg, solids, unless you want to shoot it, gut it, and quarter it all at once.

General plains game: obviously an expanding bullet (see "Weight").

Weight? I reckon that a 250 gr A Frame or TTSX that retains 90 to 95% weight penetrates with 225 to 240 gr. That is a lot more than the traditional cup & core bullets that made the 300 gr .375 legendary and that routinely lost 50+% and penetrated with only 150 gr. Simple physics. Personal choices: would be 300 gr solid on the heavies but again for me it is .470 territory; 300 gr NP for specialized lion or leopard hunt where you re-sight anyway; and 250, 260, 270 gr A Frame, TSX, TTSX, GMX, ETip (whatever tickles your fancy and/or shoots best in your rifle) as a do-it-all load for general bag buff & plains game. Lighter bullets (e.g. 235 or 250 gr) recoil less but keep in mind that even though they start faster they also have lower sectional density and ballistic coefficient... 260/270 gr might be the ideal compromise...

I would not carry 5 different loads in the field simultaneously - this is a recipe for disaster - but I would take different loads to Africa for different hunts (e.g. elephant vs. lion vs. general bag).

 

[Fastrig]

Well, then why comment on the suitability of larger calibers etc., no one is saying one has to use big bores for PG. Though I do, but I use lighter expanding bullets (225 gr in .416 and 258 gr. in .458).

Believe this thread was about 375 H&H solid ammo vs expansion rounds, not suitability of larger calibers....I was agreeing with Red Leg that the 375 takes, and has taken, a hell of a lot of big game cleanly and that many hunters can’t handle those big calibers. I happen to be one of those as I don’t have a lot of experience with them but do with the 30 cal family of rounds and rifles. If I did go after an elephant, I’d probably use a 375 as I can shoot that accurately and efficiently which is more important, IMO, than hitting the critter off target with a rifle and round I’m not completely comfortable with. You all that use the heavy caliber rounds seem to think they are the only answer to everything, I disagree and tend to lean towards using the rifle/caliber/bullet that will do a given job and which you are the most proficient and accurate with...for me that would be the heavier medium bores.

 

[Tanks]

... I happen to be one of those as I don’t have a lot of experience with them but do with the 30 cal family of rounds and rifles.

... You all that use the heavy caliber rounds seem to think they are the only answer to everything, I disagree...for me that would be the heavier medium bores.

Well, if you don't have experience with the big bores how can you judge whether they are the answer or not?

I think @One Day... explained it best in the post above. He was talking about bullet weight and caliber for various game.

For PG, which seems to be what you are interested in, I'd say go with whichever rifle you are comfortable with. There isn't a PG that can't be brought down with your .300 WM IMHO.

At this point in time, for me personally, my PG/leopard rifle is .375H&H, at least that is what I am leaning towards for my upcoming hunt. If I get my .500 NE dialed in to take as the heavy, I might leave it behind and take the .458 with the 258 grain bullets as the PG/leopard rifle, but it is fluid now. I probably won't know until just before the hunt.