I'm confused

[freefall]

I own a Pedersoli Kodiak in .45-70. I would like to chamber it in a cartridge suitable to shoot a cape buffalo. I read on the interwebz (where everything is true) that using smokeless powder, there is no advantage to using a .45-120 as opposed to a .45-70 because you can't utilize the additional case capacity. Farther on I read that it's best to chamber to a .450#2 because the huge case will lower pressures.
I look at the hornady loading data, I see the max load with 500 gr bullet achieves 1800 fps for around 3600 fps at 28,500 cup. The max .45-70 load with 500 gr does 1400 fps for 2176 at that pressure.
Can somebody enlighten me?

 

[C.W. Richter]

There are plenty lovers of the 45-70 on AH. It's not recommended by the experts. It has case-capacity envy when it comes to African DG. Go with a lower weight bullet 350-450, hot handloads, probably a solid/FMJ/monometal-Woodleighs are the smallest, so they allow the greatest amount of powder (there are other solids in this dept.) And, get close and have your PH shadow you at the ready in every instance!!! Even the .458 WM has its limitations, but can you have the gun reamed out to it?? Good luck! Seems like some real research into what pressures the GUN can handle in the larger cases, vs. published safe maximum data to protect all shooters (particularly those using very old guns that can't exceed certain, rather minimum specs.) There are videos of people using 45-120s for elephant. Research what loads they're using! Ask them and they'll tell you.

 

[freefall]

I have a Marlin .45-70, with HSM bear loads it fires a 430 gr bullet at 1800 fps, and I would feel confident using that against pretty much anything on land. But it's loaded to about 43,000 cup. I was staying around 28000 because that's the original .45-70 load specs and I didn't want to stress this gun.
Where does one find these videos of .45-120s for elephant? My goole-fu is weak, but I shall attempt to exercise it.

 

[Alistair]

45-70 is one if those rounds where nominal performance is dictated by the weakest possible rifle and action it can be used in. There are many old 45-70 rifles so loading data usually caters to them on the assumption that one might use factory ammo or 'safe book values' in them and they don't want the liability risk.

Careful development of 45-70 +p+ loads in a single modern rifle that you own and trust will yield a lot more, but at the cost of 40,000+ pressures. Not 450ne more, but a lot, lot more than factory. I'd start with homeloads with a trusted double base powder in the top half of book values and go from there. I expect you'll not see dangerous pressure signs far beyond the loading book ranges and probably have no issues before case capacity is limiting with compressed loads, but please do be very careful and if you're not familiar with this kind of experimental reloading, do it with someone who is. In your case its gotta regulate as well. Which could also be a limiting factor.

I think a custom 45-120 modern rifle will yield even more, but again, at the user's risk.

Same story with rounds like 45colt. There's a lot, lot left on the table for a modern firearm, but not within the 15000ish? pressures of the original loads. Thin cases too.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Hmmm i have a whole pile of VHS and DVDs but I know they're on a few...they can easily be googled and/or found on Youtube today as long as you use specific search terms! The dark recesses say a few guys Charlton McCallum, PH hosted in Zim. Charlton actually grabbed this gun and worked the hammers as it looked like a museum piece! (it was a modern recreation of an antique, external hammer double rifle). Good stuff. Also a good example video of what happens when you don't hit a leopard properly. Hunter was fine. PH got mauled. (diff guy with presumably a 460 Wby, the finest clothing, a gold card, and not much prep time.) The 45-120 ele went straight down (at like 10-20 yds). On an older Roger Raglin BKS video, his friend (maybe the Knight co. owner?) used a similar, double 45 or 50 cal muzzleloader on DG and it worked!

 

[C.W. Richter]

A 3" 450-400 will def outshine a 2" 45-70 case. Modern gun allowing increased pressures (more powder.) Same for the 2.75 and 3.25" variants! No. 1 2 and 3 I believe?

 

[BeeMaa]

@freefall

Trying to make a 45-70 into something it isn't will be a difficult endeavor. Your time and money will be better spent on a new or used rifle in a suitable caliber above .375 or 9.3mm. Lots of good threads on AH about suitable Cape Buffalo calibers, actions, rifle brands...etc.

EDIT - That being said, I'm sure there are members here who have used a 45-70 for Cape Buffalo. I would only advise that you consult your PH ahead of time for his opinion and suggestions.

 

[freefall]

Did anybody read my original question?
I DO NOT want to go shoot a buffalo with my .45-70. I want to have it rechambered and regulated to a caliber that is sufficient for said purpose.
I mainly want to know why a .45-120 is too big but a .450#2 is wonderful.
And where to find brass for either!!

 

[AHughes]

I did and was waiting on some more comments before posting anything..... I have asked very similar question, as I was wondering about rechambering a rifle to 45-90 -110 - or 120

My research didn't give me enough reason to take it on as my 45-70 slinging a .458 405g bullet moving at x speed wasnt embarrassed by the others when loaded to close to max pressure..
again I'm still curious but maybe I missed something in my research as well, what do most 400g .458 bullets make for speed out of a 45-120?? I've never shot one or loaded one so I'm greenhorn here in the 45-120 territory


And on a side note , my 45-70 300g loads traveling over 2200fps are only 300fps off my 375hh 300g loads traveling 2500fps (round numbers) so really I'm confused as to why .458 300g bullet @ 2200 is laughed at but .375 300g @ 2500 is acceptable , but again I'm just a dumb redneck that lives in the woods

 

[1dirthawker]

@freefall,

yeah, you said 45-70 on an africa hunting forum and everyone quit reading and freaks out about it...funny.

to your question, i actually thought about taking a bakail double 45-70 and having the chambers reamed to 45-120 (which i think is the 450 NE case length) the bakail apparently has an adjustable regulation, so i thought it could be turned into a serviceable weapon. i owned a 450 BPE that i ended up selling to the late Cal Pappas that used the 45-120 cases that i sourced from hornady.(cabela's) the gun did not fit me well at all, so i got rid of it. also, it had damasks barrels that i thought might require it to not be fully loaded as current steels could be.

that said, i still think that the idea is a viable one. the rifle might need to be weighted down a bit because i am sure it will be on the light side. so to answer your question, yes, i believe it could be done, and maybe be close in performance to a 450NE. it would certainly cost less than ANY current double gun you could buy today.

good luck on your project if you decide to move forward with it.

 

[BeeMaa]

Did anybody read my original question?
I DO NOT want to go shoot a buffalo with my .45-70. I want to have it rechambered and regulated to a caliber that is sufficient for said purpose.
I mainly want to know why a .45-120 is too big but a .450#2 is wonderful.
And where to find brass for either!!

Yep, I read your original question. And I still think you would be ahead money if you bought a new or used rifle in an appropriate caliber.

Your gun, your choice. But don't be getting upset when you asked for suggestions and don't like the answers because they don't align with your thinking. When doing internet research, people have a way of only looking for the answers they want and disregarding the rest.

 

[rookhawk]

I own a Pedersoli Kodiak in .45-70. I would like to chamber it in a cartridge suitable to shoot a cape buffalo. I read on the interwebz (where everything is true) that using smokeless powder, there is no advantage to using a .45-120 as opposed to a .45-70 because you can't utilize the additional case capacity. Farther on I read that it's best to chamber to a .450#2 because the huge case will lower pressures.
I look at the hornady loading data, I see the max load with 500 gr bullet achieves 1800 fps for around 3600 fps at 28,500 cup. The max .45-70 load with 500 gr does 1400 fps for 2176 at that pressure.
Can somebody enlighten me?

I don’t want to talk you out of your endeavor, but what you’re proposing is not a good idea from a financial perspective. Ignoring the pressure considerations in general and the length of the breech before the barrel tapers/thins, its a lot of money. You’re talking about rechambering at minimum, re-regulating the barrel, regulating the sights, and after about $3000 of this mucking around you’ve got a gun worth exactly what it cost new but very difficult to sell.

This is the same advice as those that try to make rifles out of double barrel shotguns. Don’t, unless you’re determined and know you’re throwing money into a blackhole.

 

[rookhawk]

Did anybody read my original question?
I DO NOT want to go shoot a buffalo with my .45-70. I want to have it rechambered and regulated to a caliber that is sufficient for said purpose.
I mainly want to know why a .45-120 is too big but a .450#2 is wonderful.
And where to find brass for either!!

I understand the frustration, we’re answering around your question instead of directly. I don’t know the pressure difference between the two cartridges but I’m assuming since roughly the same size, the end result is more velocity out of the bigger cartridge. Might be near impossible to get it to regulate whether by twist rate or the amount of changes to the regulation wedge required. (Do they even have a lead, movable regulation wedged braised in?)

There are about 5 qualified barrel regulators in North America. They are busy working on $20,000-$250,000 double rifles in a long queue. Be prepared to be put at the back of the line if they’ll take the work, or be prepared to pay a shadetree gunsmith to charge you while learning on the job.

 

[Red Leg]

I did and was waiting on some more comments before posting anything..... I have asked very similar question, as I was wondering about rechambering a rifle to 45-90 -110 - or 120

My research didn't give me enough reason to take it on as my 45-70 slinging a .458 405g bullet moving at x speed wasnt embarrassed by the others when loaded to close to max pressure..
again I'm still curious but maybe I missed something in my research as well, what do most 400g .458 bullets make for speed out of a 45-120?? I've never shot one or loaded one so I'm greenhorn here in the 45-120 territory


And on a side note , my 45-70 300g loads traveling over 2200fps are only 300fps off my 375hh 300g loads traveling 2500fps (round numbers) so really I'm confused as to why .458 300g bullet @ 2200 is laughed at but .375 300g @ 2500 is acceptable , but again I'm just a dumb redneck that lives in the woods

On thick skinned game it is all about penetration. The sectional density of a 300 gr 45-70 barely exceeds .200 (.204). The same weight bullet from a .375 has an SD of .305. Sort of like the difference between a hubcap and a baseball.

 

[AHughes]

See I learn something every day ... appreciate that , something I did not know

 

[colorado]

Keep and cherish your 45 -70 Buy yourself a nice new model 70 in 375 H&H. You deserve it and take it to Africa

 

[sestoppelman]

Look at the latest version of the Lyman manual. It holds good loads for the .45-70 thru the 45-120. The kind of loads that will get your attention, using modern made Sharps rifles.
The 120 being such a large case gets the job done with relatively low pressure.

 

[Gemsbok45]

Red Leg is spot on! Sectional density..300 is considered the start of a dangerous game bullet .I’m a big fan of the Remington 416. The 400 grain bullet has a .330 SD. Norma! Really good. People hunt Elephants and Buffalos with a bow. Your PH will know when to back up. It’s doable!

 

[flatwater bill]

@freefall ...in answer to your question, there are only two subspecies of walrus.
(I think that addresses your OP about as well as some of the above.)
More to the point, however, it is difficult to get an objective answer comparing anything to the 450-400 on this website. It is such a good cartridge that it can be fired in the general direction of an animal, and will usually kill it outright. I see some reasons for legitimate confusion with the larger capacity cartridges though. I owned a Kodiak, and currently own several 45-2.1's along with the 45-90, and 45-110. With Black, I can get almost 1500 fps from the 110 with a 500 grainer. I can duplicate that in the 45-70 Ruger No. 1 with smokeless. But it's not a apples comparison. Some may see that as a reason against rechambering. I say go for it and good luck..............FWB

 

[freefall]

@freefall ...in answer to your question, there are only two subspecies of walrus.
(I think that addresses your OP about as well as some of the above.)
..............FWB

Luckily, I managed to extinct the damn penguins up here and we don't have to keep count of those flightless, fish-breathed little bassets!