Hunting Ethics of shooting Buffalo bull while he’s laying down

[Philip Glass]

I'd try to wait to see if he gets up but if the wind is wanting to change or something else I'd honestly take the shot.

 

[Javaman]

I personally see nothing unethical about this, although it’s a tricky shot to visualize the vital organs while the Cape buffalo are laying down.

That was “my friend’s” impression …

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Of course if you had enough field experience you would know that bone sour spoilage starts, as the name implies, deep in meat next to the bone, particularly in the thicker cuts and/or areas more insulated either by fur, hide (e.g. bull's neck), or laying against the ground. It may be possible to save some portions but the spoiled stuff needs to be trimmed away and good meat treated or cooked quickly. I saved most of the above mentioned elk but even after thawing trimmed meat from the freezer I still had to check it (smell it). Eat sour meat or meat that is starting to sour and your guts will let you know even if your nose or taste buds are fooled. Some critters, including some people, have digestive systems that are more tolerant of spoiled meat. But if it can be avoided, I'm not inclined to send anything to the skinning shed or butcher or chef or native folks that has started to go south. A good way to avoid the risk is don't take a shot that has a high risk of wounding, especially late in the day.

You’re comparing game farm hunts and North America processing standards to wild Africa. The people buying you’re game farm processed meat might care, but the hundreds of thousands living in the plywood 3 sided shanties or in the mud/thatch huts in the concession areas of wild Africa don’t care. Most of those locals don’t see enough meat in their lifetime to care. They’d pick 5 day old spoiled/rotting meat off a roadkill if anything lasted that long and eat so much they’d throw up and have the meat sweats

 

[Newboomer]

You’re comparing game farm hunts and North America processing standards to wild Africa. The people buying you’re game farm processed meat might care, but the hundreds of thousands living in the plywood 3 sided shanties or in the mud/thatch huts in the concession areas of wild Africa don’t care. Most of those locals don’t see enough meat in their lifetime to care. They’d pick 5 day old spoiled/rotting meat off a roadkill if anything lasted that long and eat so much they’d throw up and have the meat sweats

Interesting. I'd say wait til he stands up if the wind permits. If it changes be prepared for a quick shot. He may come up quick and be gone before you can get a shot.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Interesting. I'd say wait til he stands up if the wind permits. If it changes be prepared for a quick shot. He may come up quick and be gone before you can get a shot.

My post wasn’t referencing the shot rather the meat that Ontario was discussing so not sure why I was quoted.

To answer the OP’s question I personally see nothing wrong with or unethical about taking a bedded animal IF you’re confident in your shot and understand how the animal being bedded impacts the muscular skeletal positioning of bones and the vitals, as well as the angle of your shot from whatever distance you’re shooting at. I’ve taken 2 different Dangerous Game animas in their beds, both at under 10 yards as well as a couple other PG and NA animals. The PG & NA were all head/neck shots from a bit of a distance and they never moved/felt a thing. It’s pretty common out west to be able to stalk or get to a rock solid shooting position on bedded elk and deer.

I believe all Dangerous Game animals should be taken up close and personal, with my ideal distance under 40yds. Of the 4 different species of Big 5 I’ve been successful on, all have been at less than 40 yards and to me, that’s what makes Dangerous Game hunting fun and challenging. For this to be done with one of these animals in their bed, the wind conditions must be absolutely perfect and stalking in under that close into their bedroom undetected is an even greater challenge where you need to be prepared for a quick snap, possibly running shot. There’s no time to get on sticks.

The first Dangerous Game I took was a Buffalo and he was actually one of them that was bedded. He was spotted, and we stalked in very slowly moving bush to bush, tree to tree, termite mount to termite mound until we we were under 50 yards. We tried waiting him out around 35-40yds for a good bit even trying to throw a rock to get him to stand. After this we took a step or two at a time closer with the rifle ready for a quick shot thinking he’d stand. Once we got to about 10yds, slightly quartered away with a bush/tree between us, I was tired of waiting and we thought the wind might change as it was getting later in the afternoon of our last day so I mounted the gun, side stepped a few times to a slight quartering angle and double shouldered him. I think right before I shot he looked back at us noticing us and was in shock we were there. I hit both lungs and top of the heart. He got up, turning towards ate solid from a frontal/hard quartering too shot which turned him to chase his 2 companions. We then we pursued around a bush and I hit him 2 more times while he was running. #3 & #4 shots were both shoulder hits with the last breaking him down enough he tipped over and was down within 50-75yds of the first shot. Getting the tractor in took another several hours because a road had to be cut.

The other one we were tracking him where he’d walked zig zagging all over back and forth over his own tracks running in circles and we couldn’t discern which tracks were the freshest. We ultimately and accidentally walked in on him from directly behind (he was positioned into the wind, backed into a bush) on what wasn’t his freshest set of tracks but he by chance bedded somewhere he’d walked much earlier in the day/night. Being about 10yds away directly from behind him I shot through the bush putting one right between his shoulder blades anchoring him in his bed hitting spine and coming out the front of his chest into a front leg. We immediately ran around to the now exposed side/underside and put a couple more into his chest and vitals. He ultimately didn’t move an inch.

 

[1dirthawker]

my one and only buffalo was shot lying down at 35 yards. my ph told me how he was lying (i was squatting low to stay out of sight), he said "stand up and shoot him", so i did. i felt good on the shot and the (heart shot and broke his shoulder) and the follow up shot. (broke his left hip).

i would have preferred a standing shot, but took what i was given and it worked out fine.

 

[crossone]

My Dad used to tell a joke about the country boy and the city boy out pheasant hunting.

After hours of traipsing through brush and field hunt for pheasants, the boys spot a rooster running down a corn stubble row, the country boy threw his shotgun to his shoulder and started following the rooster with his front bead.

The city boy, having pheasant hunted in three countries, often over the very best dogs, was shocked! The city boy said, "You're not going to shoot him when he's running are you!?"

To which, the country boy replied, "No, I'm going to wait for him to stop."

 

[grand veneur]

My Dad used to tell a joke about the country boy and the city boy out pheasant hunting.

After hours of traipsing through brush and field hunt for pheasants, the boys spot a rooster running down a corn stubble row, the country boy threw his shotgun to his shoulder and started following the rooster with his front bead.

The city boy, having pheasant hunted in three countries, often over the very best dogs, was shocked! The city boy said, "You're not going to shoot him when he's running are you!?"

To which, the country boy replied, "No, I'm going to wait for him to stop."

It is funny story, but you cannot compare bird hunting with heavy game hunting. There are different rules and traditions. Even in my countries, when hunting in the field, game birds are only shot in flight and ask our British members what they think about shooting birds on the ground.

 

[MS 9x56]

It is funny story, but you cannot compare bird hunting with heavy game hunting. There are different rules and traditions. Even in my countries, when hunting in the field, game birds are only shot in flight and ask our British members what they think about shooting birds on the ground.

Keep a stiff upper lip old chap!

 

[Scott CWO]

Of course if you had enough field experience you would know that bone sour spoilage starts, as the name implies, deep in meat next to the bone, particularly in the thicker cuts and/or areas more insulated either by fur, hide (e.g. bull's neck), or laying against the ground. It may be possible to save some portions but the spoiled stuff needs to be trimmed away and good meat treated or cooked quickly. I saved most of the above mentioned elk but even after thawing trimmed meat from the freezer I still had to check it (smell it). Eat sour meat or meat that is starting to sour and your guts will let you know even if your nose or taste buds are fooled. Some critters, including some people, have digestive systems that are more tolerant of spoiled meat. But if it can be avoided, I'm not inclined to send anything to the skinning shed or butcher or chef or native folks that has started to go south. A good way to avoid the risk is don't take a shot that has a high risk of wounding, especially late in the day.

I've had lazy PHs try this and want to turn the truck towards camp before the sun even sets. Time to get back to the bar? No. Not acceptable to me when it is the second best part of the day to hunt, especially for plains game. I'm not paying $1500+ per day in a wilderness area to hunt 2/3rds of the day. Not happening until the primary species I am after are in the salt. I won't be penalized because some previous inexperienced people don't know how to shoot well enough to make a fatal shot in the early morning or evening. Each client should be evaluated separately as to abilities.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I've had lazy PHs try this and want to turn the truck towards camp before the sun even sets. Time to get back to the bar? No. Not acceptable to me when it is the second best part of the day to hunt, especially for plains game. I'm not paying $1500+ per day in a wilderness area to hunt 2/3rds of the day. Not happening until the primary species I am after are in the salt. I won't be penalized because some previous inexperienced people don't know how to shoot well enough to make a fatal shot in the early morning or evening. Each client should be evaluated separately as to abilities.

I'm okay with it. There's lots of game to hunt tomorrow. Anyway, for me hunting Africa is about more than putting stuff in the salt.

I have read more than one report on here of hunters who boffed the shot and then the carcass found days later after the client left. Outfitter sends the skull to taxidermist for client and then it's shipped home. I don't get that. At all. Not the kind of memory I want on the wall. I very nearly lost my last kudu because I attempted to shoot over brush instead of getting off the sticks for a clearer shot. We did finally put him down two days later on my last day hunting. I swear to God if we had not got him, I would have quit hunting. It still makes me sick that bull had to suffer so long.

And no, I would never feel good about feeding rotten meat to starving natives, even if they are okay with it. I can do better. I should do better. They deserve better. Here I am a guest in their country and I give them stuff that will make them sick? Really?

I'm all for being in the field before sunup. That way we have the whole day to chase down a poorly placed shot if it happens. I had a lazy PH last time who insisted we wait for cook to make breakfast at seven and then drive an hour and a half to hunt kudu. I sorted him out! I'm fine with cold cereal. Feeding my face is never a priority, especially when hunting. My favorite PH would cook breakfast for us when we left early. This twit wouldn't get off his arse to put wood in the campfire at night. Lodge owner's wife had to do it.

 

[Sideshow]

Obviously, an animal that size in that environment will spoil if it dies and is not dressed in an hour or two. Yeah, I might still have the horns and a story to tell. But the story will have a shitty ending if the animal suffered to death during the night and meat went to the vultures. Not the kind of memories I want to look at on the wall. Would rather fly home with nothing ... but good memories. I'm pleased my PH is cut from the same cloth.

I think you should really read a few hunt reports of what its like out side of the game farms.
Heres a good link https://www.africahunting.com/threads/zimbabwe-2024-my-first-trip-to-africa-dalton-york.84009/
Post #19 pretty much says it all "The most fascinating part of the entire trip is watching the locals deal with a dead 7,000+lbs animal"

As for the op's orginal Q: If the shot for me is clear ie I can pictuer the vitals then yep I would take it.

 

[Hank2211]

It is funny story, but you cannot compare bird hunting with heavy game hunting. There are different rules and traditions. Even in my countries, when hunting in the field, game birds are only shot in flight and ask our British members what they think about shooting birds on the ground.

I think you’re comparing sport shooting with shooting for food. When people are hunting to feed their families, it’s not about a ‘sporting shot” or giving the game a “fair chance.”

 

[CamoManJ]

Scenario … You’ve hunted fair-chase buff’s for 8 straight days with any number of encounters and missed opportunities. On the morning of day 9 (your last morning to hunt), after a 2 hour stalk, you come across a nice Buff bull at 60 yds and confirm he’s a shooter. The only problem is he’s laying down in the shade of some cover. You have a slightly tricky shot through a hole in some brush but are steady on the sticks and are confident you can make a good shot into his vitals.

Question for the group … Do you wait for him to stand up before shooting (you could be there a while!), or do you shoot him while he’s laying down?

Asking for a friend…

Glad for your thoughts on this scenario.

It’s still the morning of the last day…still time to wait for a standing or better shot, however things could happen in a hurry for a lost shot opportunity. I am a firm believer in following your own gut as to whether you can make the shot and when to take it, after the ok from the PH. Satisfying other’s opinions, their ethics & such is tricky…why go down that road? Respect for the animals and the hunting community, of course is important. Some things should be considered left out of hunt reports and conversations…probably. It’s your Safari, your money & your call. I’d take the shot, no regrets.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Scenario … You’ve hunted fair-chase buff’s for 8 straight days with any number of encounters and missed opportunities. On the morning of day 9 (your last morning to hunt), after a 2 hour stalk, you come across a nice Buff bull at 60 yds and confirm he’s a shooter. The only problem is he’s laying down in the shade of some cover. You have a slightly tricky shot through a hole in some brush but are steady on the sticks and are confident you can make a good shot into his vitals.

Question for the group … Do you wait for him to stand up before shooting (you could be there a while!), or do you shoot him while he’s laying down?

Asking for a friend…

Glad for your thoughts on this scenario.

@Javaman
I don't know about others but it doesn't worry me if an animal is asleep under a tree or standing to give a good shot.
As long as I'm confident taking the shot with a very very high chance of getting a killing shot with my first shot I'm going to take the shot regardless of the fact he is asleep under a tree and laying down.
I've killed a lot of pigs I've come across sleeping.
Dang I've even shot one while he was part way thru mounting a sow. At least he died happy.
To me personally the criteria is can I inflict a fatal shot with confidence.
Bob

 

[Ontario Hunter]

@Javaman
I don't know about others but it doesn't worry me if an animal is asleep under a tree or standing to give a good shot.
As long as I'm confident taking the shot with a very very high chance of getting a killing shot with my first shot I'm going to take the shot regardless of the fact he is asleep under a tree and laying down.
I've killed a lot of pigs I've come across sleeping.
Dang I've even shot one while he was part way thru mounting a sow. At least he died happy.
To me personally the criteria is can I inflict a fatal shot with confidence.
Bob

I shot this buck while he was mounting a yearling doe. Her mama was watching me and getting nervous. Little gal kept trying to fight him off. I waited for him to give up but finally had to take him as the battle proceeded into full sight of me. Shot him through the heart from 160 yards in sitting position on the side of a steep ravine. Knocked him off her and he never kicked. Middle of the afternoon ... NOT "waning light."

 

[Javaman]

Shooting a trophy while he’s rutting seems ethical but … unjust? If I had the shot I’d prolly take it myself but talk about the Thrill of Victory and sudden Agony of Defeat!

 

[375Fox]

I shot this buck while he was mounting a yearling doe. Her mama was watching me and getting nervous. Little gal kept trying to fight him off. I waited for him to give up but finally had to take him as the battle proceeded into full sight of me. Shot him through the heart from 160 yards in sitting position on the side of a steep ravine. Knocked him off her and he never kicked. Middle of the afternoon ... NOT "waning light."
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You make it a point to exaggerate many of your posts. I’m certain this story is no different but I can only assume. I think many would find shooting a buck off a doe a questionable shot and unless your position of the heart is very different than mine that blood on the buck’s back tells a very different story.

You’ve made it a point to using the words rotten meat and waning light frequently here to exaggerate your point. What I’ve gathered from your posts is you start late and leave early when you hunt with Two Water Safaris and priority is given to getting the meat to commercial sale over success rates. Hunting a known buffalo cow in a 3000 acre breeding pen is very different than hunting a concession area.

 

[Hank2211]

I'm okay with it. There's lots of game to hunt tomorrow. Anyway, for me hunting Africa is about more than putting stuff in the salt.

Ontario Hunter, I see that you've only hunted in South Africa, so you can be forgiven for making this statement.

On a the 12th day of a 14 day hunt in the jungle, you take (almost) whatever shot you can on the bongo. The Bako trackers know far better than you that there isn't "lots of game to hunt tomorrow." If you don't take it, there's no meat for anyone.

On the last days of a hunt for mountain nyala, where the weather has been freezing cold and snowing/raining, you take the 387 yard shot because there haven't been any others, and if you don't get this one, you likely won't get another (and while not entirely relevant, you've already paid the US$15,000 trophy fee, and the government won't refund it if you're unsuccessful, which weighs on your mind a bit). Because there isn't "lots of game to hunt tomorrow."

in many cases in Africa, not only is there not "lots of game to hunt" there isn't any tomorrow. And in giving up an opportunity your PH believes is available, and which you believe you can make, means you're letting everyone down.

So I continue to maintain that if your PH feels you can take the shot, and you have a team which has worked their butts off to get you in this position, and you're comfortable, you take the shot. It's not about ethics.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

You make it a point to exaggerate many of your posts. I’m certain this story is no different but I can only assume. I think many would find shooting a buck off a doe a questionable shot and unless your position of the heart is very different than mine that blood on the buck’s back tells a very different story.

You’ve made it a point to using the words rotten meat and waning light frequently here to exaggerate your point. What I’ve gathered from your posts is you start late and leave early when you hunt with Two Water Safaris and priority is given to getting the meat to commercial sale over success rates. Hunting a known buffalo cow in a 3000 acre breeding pen is very different than hunting a concession area.

That buck rolled down the hill and then I pulled it out of the gully in the background to this spot so I could drive to it. The buck was flat broadside when I shot it behind right shoulder. As I recall the bullet did not exit which is not surprising as buck was only standing on two hind legs when knocked/thrown off the doe. I presume it either rolled in its own blood or more likely I pulled it through blood after I gutted it. I was set up for quite a while before taking the shot. Mama actually laid down while watching me. But she kept looking up the coulee so I expected more deer were coming. Sat down, waited, and I was right. By the time the buck showed himself I had a very good rest with sling in sitting position. Well settled down before taking the shot. So I took it. Easy. Nice buck into the freezer.

I really don't care for some self-pontificating loudmouth self-proclaimed "wild Africa" expert calling me a liar. Too bad you don't have half as much knowledge as you give yourself credit for.

Don't believe I have ever boosted or even mentioned my outfitter's name on this forum. You probably read it from the logo on my cap in photos? Guess I can't do the same as you black out or cut off your head/face in any trophy photos you post. Given your attitude I guess it's best to stay anonymous. I'm not sure why you keep referring to my outfitter in derogatory terms. But I'm sure they don't appreciate it. I know I don't. Grow up.

By the way, I'm usually in the field well before daybreak, whether here, Montana, or Africa. Exception is uplands. They typically don't move much until dew is off the grass. And I need better light to determine sex of roosters.