Hunting Ethics of shooting Buff bull while he’s laying down

[Ontario Hunter]

If you're a good shot, have a reasonable understanding of buffalo anatomy and what laying down might do to organ placement, have a steady rest, and your PH will allow you to take the shot, etc., then I don't think a shot would be unethical.

Having said that, if you decide to take that shot, I would suggest you reload immediately and take a follow up shot, or allow your PH to take one if it looks like your first shot didn't hit the mark. If you have a double, well, that's what that second barrel is for.

I was in the same situation some years ago, on the biggest buffalo I'd seen to that point (and since, as it turns out). We had a comfortable place to rest, so we gave it some time and he eventually got up on his own. But if we had been losing light . . . and if we had battled to find a shootable bull . . . I don't think we'd have waited.

That's a lot of "ifs." It's why most PHs elect to wait for the animal to get up for a better shot, especially thick skinned big boned animals that want to kill me.

My PH won't let me shoot at buffalo, or anything else, in waning light. Certainly not an "iffy" shot. I might do it hunting deer and elk in snow because I can track down a wounded one. Still, it nearly cost me injury or death when the last elk came for me point blank in the dark. Tracking a wounded bull buffalo in the dark "just is not done" according to my PH. Obviously, an animal that size in that environment will spoil if it dies and is not dressed in an hour or two. Yeah, I might still have the horns and a story to tell. But the story will have a shitty ending if the animal suffered to death during the night and meat went to the vultures. Not the kind of memories I want to look at on the wall. Would rather fly home with nothing ... but good memories. I'm pleased my PH is cut from the same cloth.

 

[Field28]

How about the ethics of shooting a Cape Buffalo Cow laying down?

Sorry, couldn't help it!

 

[Mekaniks]

If the PH says shoot and you are comfortable with the shot…. Do Not Hesitate…. It doesn't matter if the critter is sitting down, laying on a bed of roses, or staring off into space…. Your job as the hunter is to make a good shot….The rest is just a distraction
(yes even if it’s a cow)….

 

[Rafiki]

Scenario … You’ve hunted fair-chase buff’s for 8 straight days with any number of encounters and missed opportunities. On the morning of day 9 (your last morning to hunt), after a 2 hour stalk, you come across a nice Buff bull at 60 yds and confirm he’s a shooter. The only problem is he’s laying down in the shade of some cover. You have a slightly tricky shot through a hole in some brush but are steady on the sticks and are confident you can make a good shot into his vitals.

Question for the group … Do you wait for him to stand up before shooting (you could be there a while!), or do you shoot him while he’s laying down?

Asking for a friend…

Glad for your thoughts on this scenario.

,y answer to this question will be answered in my hunt report if I ever get it done

 

[375Fox]

That's a lot of "ifs." It's why most PHs elect to wait for the animal to get up for a better shot, especially thick skinned big boned animals that want to kill me.

My PH won't let me shoot at buffalo, or anything else, in waning light. Certainly not an "iffy" shot. I might do it hunting deer and elk in snow because I can track down a wounded one. Still, it nearly cost me injury or death when the last elk came for me point blank in the dark. Tracking a wounded bull buffalo in the dark "just is not done" according to my PH. Obviously, an animal that size in that environment will spoil if it dies and is not dressed in an hour or two. Yeah, I might still have the horns and a story to tell. But the story will have a shitty ending if the animal suffered to death during the night and meat went to the vultures. Not the kind of memories I want to look at on the wall. Would rather fly home with nothing ... but good memories. I'm pleased my PH is cut from the same cloth.

How many regions and PHs have you hunted in again to say “Most PHs”? Most PHs want to put their client in position for the best available shot. No two situations are exactly the same. Early season, late season, the region, etc provide a lot of variables on the shot you will get. Losing light in late afternoon is also very different than waning light just before dark. If you and PH are comfortable with shot you take it and if you or PH aren’t comfortable for whatever reason you don’t take it. Some hunts provide a lot more flexibility than others.

Also meat doesn’t spoil in an hour or two. I’d suspect most buffalo taken from wild areas will be approaching 3-6 hours before they even make it to the skinning shed. It takes time to cut path to buffalo, take photos, then it’s a long slow drive with a heavy buffalo in the back. Meat won’t spoil in the dark overnight, but hyenas are definitely a threat with a buffalo you can’t recover before dark. Most (all) shots taken will take finding buffalo that day into consideration.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

If you are in Zim, listen to your PH. If you are in South Africa, be careful as the PH's there do not have the training or experience of a properly trained Zim PH.
If you can shoot the buff in head or upper neck, then maybe shoot. If you are having to shoot into the chest, wait until he stands up. They always do, eventually.

Bluntly, on behalf of the 2 PHs I hunted with in South Africa, I am offended by that. I understand that different locations provide different experiences. But I find your post demeaning to two gentlemen that I hold in very high regard. They are outstanding PHs, to include my buffalo hunts.

 

[Nyati]

I have seen this done, in the Northern Cape Province. PH is from Namibia, works all over southern Africa.

The hunter botched the shot, as he couldn´t take a good reference for shot placement, the PH had to intervine, and the poor buff died of a lead overdose.

A mess, didn´t like it !

 

[375Fox]

Bluntly, on behalf of the 2 PHs I hunted with in South Africa, I am offended by that. I understand different locations provide different experiences. But I find that demeaning to two gentlemen that I hold in very high regard. They are outstanding PHs, to include my buffalo hunts.

I’m sure they are excellent PHs, but there is a difference in PHs that hunt dangerous game every day vs those that primarily hunt plains game on game farms. There are a lot of PHs in South Africa offering dangerous game hunts who don’t really have the experience to be safely doing so even if they meet the basic legal requirements. I’d scrutinize a South African PH’s experience a lot more than a Zimbabwe PH’s experience depending on the hunt I was planning, but I’d hope I did my research before hunt so I can fully trust my PH in field.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I personally see nothing unethical about this, although it’s a tricky shot to visualize the vital organs while the Cape buffalo are laying down.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

How many regions and PHs have you hunted in again to say “Most PHs”? Most PHs want to put their client in position for the best available shot. No two situations are exactly the same. Early season, late season, the region, etc provide a lot of variables on the shot you will get. Losing light in late afternoon is also very different than waning light just before dark. If you and PH are comfortable with shot you take it and if you or PH aren’t comfortable for whatever reason you don’t take it. Some hunts provide a lot more flexibility than others.

Also meat doesn’t spoil in an hour or two. I’d suspect most buffalo taken from wild areas will be approaching 3-6 hours before they even make it to the skinning shed. It takes time to cut path to buffalo, take photos, then it’s a long slow drive with a heavy buffalo in the back. Meat won’t spoil in the dark overnight, but hyenas are definitely a threat with a buffalo you can’t recover before dark. Most (all) shots taken will take finding buffalo that day into consideration.

Leave a seventeen hundred pound thick skinned animal overnight in warm weather with the guts in it and I guarantee it will be bone soured by morning ... if it can be found in the morning. I've had an elk I gutted immediately in the afternoon start to sour by next day when I could get horses to it ... less than a hundred miles from Canadian border ... during regular season. Yes, a big buff MIGHT keep for hours ... if the guts are out of him. But it won't gut itself if it dies during the night.

 

[375Fox]

Leave a seventeen hundred pound thick skinned animal overnight in warm weather with the guts in it and I guarantee it will be bone soured by morning ... if it can be found in the morning. I've had an elk I gutted immediately in the afternoon start to sour by next day when I could get horses to it ... less than a hundred miles from Canadian border ... during regular season. Yes, a big buff may keep for hours ... if the guts are out of him. But it won't gut itself if it dies during the night.

I’ve only ever gutted 1 animal in field in Africa and that’s because a small vehicle. The rest are delivered whole to skinning shed. Pretty common occurrence to come back and butcher large animals like hippo or elephant the next morning. The meat is fine.

 

[Sideshow]

Leave a seventeen hundred pound thick skinned animal overnight in warm weather with the guts in it and I guarantee it will be bone soured by morning ... if it can be found in the morning. I've had an elk I gutted immediately in the afternoon start to sour by next day when I could get horses to it ... less than a hundred miles from Canadian border ... during regular season. Yes, a big buff MIGHT keep for hours ... if the guts are out of him. But it won't gut itself if it dies during the night.

If you look at most African hunts in tough to access regions you will find that the animals especially the big one will be down for some time. To your pallet maybe they don’t taste so great but to the rest of the surrounding population, that is meat starved there not bothered or affected. Remember Africa is not South Africa its a big place and a lot of different countries with a lot of very different cultures! For example most of Tanzania wont eat elephant yet Zim they cant get enough. Ive seen bushmen eat rotten ostrich eggs. Your quote maybe fine for north America but where not talking about there are we!

 

[dogcat1]

It is not an ethical question, this is a practical question.
If you are close enough to see a buff laying down, then he will stand soon enough and you will have an easier shot - not a more ethical shot.

 

[dogcat1]

Leave a seventeen hundred pound thick skinned animal overnight in warm weather with the guts in it and I guarantee it will be bone soured by morning ... if it can be found in the morning. I've had an elk I gutted immediately in the afternoon start to sour by next day when I could get horses to it ... less than a hundred miles from Canadian border ... during regular season. Yes, a big buff MIGHT keep for hours ... if the guts are out of him. But it won't gut itself if it dies during the night.

You are correct. It will go bad. However, no one on this thread will eat or get the meat. All of the meat will be dried open air and go to the local folks.
Second, if the buff dies at night, good luck finding anything left the next day - hyenas, vultures and host of scavengers will have it down to bones by the time you and your trackers find it.

Further, your PH is not going to let you take a risky shot, assuming you are in a country with properly trained PH's. They will coach you through the shot and the trackers/spotters and hoard of helpers will find your buff. Buff get lost when a wounded one gets in a herd and does not die for a couple of days. However, it will be found eventually.

So, Mr. Ontario, I think your issue with elk is much different than a buffalo. Africa is hotter, as a rule, but you have better help in tracking and finding wounded game. I have been on 15 safaris and lost one animal that was definitely hit. My bad on the shot, but the animal was seen later with a crease type of cut and the wound was not fatal up to that time. Those hunts involve well over 100 animals with most bigger than elk. I have very rarely heard of anyone losing a buff and then finding it dead uneaten by scavengers. Don't worry about the meat in Africa, someone or something eats all of it.

So, in the end, don't listen to noise here - listen to your PH. If he says "shoot", do your best and shoot.

 

[Rare Breed]

Scenario … You’ve hunted fair-chase buff’s for 8 straight days with any number of encounters and missed opportunities. On the morning of day 9 (your last morning to hunt), after a 2 hour stalk, you come across a nice Buff bull at 60 yds and confirm he’s a shooter. The only problem is he’s laying down in the shade of some cover. You have a slightly tricky shot through a hole in some brush but are steady on the sticks and are confident you can make a good shot into his vitals.

Question for the group … Do you wait for him to stand up before shooting (you could be there a while!), or do you shoot him while he’s laying down?

Asking for a friend…

Glad for your thoughts on this scenario.

To me it is not in any way shape or form a question of ethics…we are not shooting ducks on a pond. To me the issue here is the ability to hit the vitals with an animal lying down. In your example you use a buffalo…cats are worse given when they are laying down their vitals compress making for a difficult shot…my lion experience and Lou Hallamore 40+ years experience. So to answer your question no I would not shoot the buff lying down, no ethics problem just poor first good shot problem

 

[Ontario Hunter]

You are correct. It will go bad. However, no one on this thread will eat or get the meat. All of the meat will be dried open air and go to the local folks.
Second, if the buff dies at night, good luck finding anything left the next day - hyenas, vultures and host of scavengers will have it down to bones by the time you and your trackers find it.

Further, your PH is not going to let you take a risky shot, assuming you are in a country with properly trained PH's. They will coach you through the shot and the trackers/spotters and hoard of helpers will find your buff. Buff get lost when a wounded one gets in a herd and does not die for a couple of days. However, it will be found eventually.

So, Mr. Ontario, I think your issue with elk is much different than a buffalo. Africa is hotter, as a rule, but you have better help in tracking and finding wounded game. I have been on 15 safaris and lost one animal that was definitely hit. My bad on the shot, but the animal was seen later with a crease type of cut and the wound was not fatal up to that time. Those hunts involve well over 100 animals with most bigger than elk. I have very rarely heard of anyone losing a buff and then finding it dead uneaten by scavengers. Don't worry about the meat in Africa, someone or something eats all of it.

So, in the end, don't listen to noise here - listen to your PH. If he says "shoot", do your best and shoot.

I don't think I'm wrong hanging onto my North American hunting ethics when I go to Africa. My PH says it's okay to put a bullet in the shoulder of plains game. I choose to place it behind the shoulder to avoid wasting meat. "Don't worry about that." But I do. It's the way I was raised.

I hunt South Africa. There the meat is processed and sold commercially either by lodge owner or property owner. They count on it for financing their operations and management. It's up to me to ensure they get the best bang for my buck.

Even if I was hunting more primitive areas of Africa I would not feel good about giving the local natives a bunch of sour meat. "Oh, it's better than nothing" really doesn't cut it for me. They deserve no less than me even if they are happy to get something I would throw away. Don't kid yourself, those people know the difference between good meat and bad. They will know why the meat is bad: Mr Generous Big Shot White Hunter f*ed up. And I certainly would not feel good about an animal that had to be left to suffer and die during the night because I elected to take a poor shot in waning light. There is another option. Don't take the shot. A poorly taken trophy isn't much of a trophy in my book.

 

[HankBuck]

Scenario … You’ve hunted fair-chase buff’s for 8 straight days with any number of encounters and missed opportunities. On the morning of day 9 (your last morning to hunt), after a 2 hour stalk, you come across a nice Buff bull at 60 yds and confirm he’s a shooter. The only problem is he’s laying down in the shade of some cover. You have a slightly tricky shot through a hole in some brush but are steady on the sticks and are confident you can make a good shot into his vitals.

Question for the group … Do you wait for him to stand up before shooting (you could be there a while!), or do you shoot him while he’s laying down?

Asking for a friend…

Glad for your thoughts on this scenario.

@Javaman - it’s Not like shooting a Duck-on-the-water, of course shoot the Buff in his bed. Taking big Game standing vs bedded —-bedded is usually a harder shot. The only game I can think of that you don’t shoot bedded or even standing still are ducks, geese, any Bird (except Turkey) should be taken On-the-Wing, rabbits On-the-Run (unless with handgun/rifle/bow)….I’m sure I’ve missed other examples but think I clarified my opinion….and it is Only My opinion

 

[375Fox]

Even if I was hunting more primitive areas of Africa I would not feel good about giving the local natives a bunch of sour meat. "Oh, it's better than nothing" really doesn't cut it for me. They deserve no less than me even if they are happy to get something I would throw away. Don't kid yourself, those people know the difference between good meat and bad. They will know why the meat is bad: Mr Generous Big Shot White Hunter f*ed up. And I certainly would not feel good about an animal that had to be left to suffer and die during the night because I elected to take a poor shot in waning light. There is another option. Don't take the shot. A poorly taken trophy isn't much of a trophy in my book.

You are making a point to exaggerate instead of learning something. It might not meet guidelines for commercial sale in a concession area but there is nothing wrong with the meat. Aside from waterbuck, I’ve never taken an animal that wasn’t used as camp meat including hippo butchered the next morning and numerous animals that had a very long slow drive back to camp. The communities want the meat but they want the revenue from the trophy fees more. No hunter and no PH is taking a shot they don’t expect to find that day. You can stop trying to exaggerate that point. However, there will be some upset people (both hunting team and community) if you choose not to take a good shot because you think the animal will take to long to make it to camp to get the meat processed to your personal standards.

Here is camp staff member’s personal dried meat in Zimbabwe. The strips include good cuts, stomach, and other meat from different species all cut and drying together. It’s packed into sacks and taken home at the end of hunts. Their food preparation and care is very different than what you and I expect. If meat preparation and animal welfare was a consideration there would be no market for poacher’s bushmeat which unfortunately thrives.

 

[MS 9x56]

When picking a fight with a much larger opponent, shoot first and ask questions after.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

You are making a point to exaggerate instead of learning something. It might not meet guidelines for commercial sale in a concession area but there is nothing wrong with the meat. Aside from waterbuck, I’ve never taken an animal that wasn’t used as camp meat including hippo butchered the next morning and numerous animals that had a very long slow drive back to camp. The communities want the meat but they want the revenue from the trophy fees more. No hunter and no PH is taking a shot they don’t expect to find that day. You can stop trying to exaggerate that point. However, there will be some upset people (both hunting team and community) if you choose not to take a good shot because you think the animal will take to long to make it to camp to get the meat processed to your personal standards.

Here is camp staff member’s personal dried meat in Zimbabwe. The strips include good cuts, stomach, and other meat from different species all cut and drying together. It’s packed into sacks and taken home at the end of hunts. Their food preparation and care is very different than what you and I expect. If meat preparation and animal welfare was a consideration there would be no market for poacher’s bushmeat which unfortunately thrives.
View attachment 684992View attachment 684991

Of course if you had enough field experience you would know that bone sour spoilage starts, as the name implies, deep in meat next to the bone, particularly in the thicker cuts and/or areas more insulated either by fur, hide (e.g. bull's neck), or laying against the ground. It may be possible to save some portions but the spoiled stuff needs to be trimmed away and good meat treated or cooked quickly. I saved most of the above mentioned elk but even after thawing trimmed meat from the freezer I still had to check it (smell it). Eat sour meat or meat that is starting to sour and your guts will let you know even if your nose or taste buds are fooled. Some critters, including some people, have digestive systems that are more tolerant of spoiled meat. But if it can be avoided, I'm not inclined to send anything to the skinning shed or butcher or chef or native folks that has started to go south. A good way to avoid the risk is don't take a shot that has a high risk of wounding, especially late in the day.