Hunting Buffalo in South Africa vs everywhere else

Sarg

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Let's play spot the buff....

Klaserie river reeds....

View attachment 395801

Oh crap, I hate that stuff, even when hunting Bushbuck.
We hunted the same area with some Spanish "hunters" thought we were going to get stomped for sure, one wounded a Big Cow & she broke off out into the thorns, later charging us straight through the thorn trees, (took me by surprise as I thought she would side step them) three of us all shot together, I was kind of please the owner was with us & had a .500NE double lol !!

Klaserie Cow .JPG

Klaserie Cow horn.JPG


I lined up a hunt for myself at Klaserie but some one changed my block/area & it wasn't open to the park (I think) I didn't like the looks of it so I pulled out, did see a few monster bulls !
 

DWB

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Sounds like Oom Chris?

My photo was just a few km up the river.
 

WAB

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Oh crap, I hate that stuff, even when hunting Bushbuck.
We hunted the same area with some Spanish "hunters" thought we were going to get stomped for sure, one wounded a Big Cow & she broke off out into the thorns, later charging us straight through the thorn trees, (took me by surprise as I thought she would side step them) three of us all shot together, I was kind of please the owner was with us & had a .500NE double lol !!

View attachment 395832
View attachment 395833

I lined up a hunt for myself at Klaserie but some one changed my block/area & it wasn't open to the park (I think) I didn't like the looks of it so I pulled out, did see a few monster bulls !

This pic is from the Klaserie reserve. Kruger genetics!
Image1617393532.043190.jpg
 

BSO Dave

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This is where you are completely wrong, you can choose not to care, but I do get to judge.
I will concede that you are actually correct on 2 accounts:

1) You actually do get to judge.

2) I do choose not to care about your judgment on me, or anyone else hunting within the limits of the law.
We have no common ground to agree on anything if you refuse to recognize a difference between wild unfenced, wild managed high fence, put and take high fence, and the grey area in between
I really don't think there is anyone on here that has a more profound understanding of the differences that you mention above. That is precisely why I feel so confident in making the arguments that I have made. You have focused on the differences where I have pointed out the commonalities as they pertain to the perceived "ethics" of each individual hunter. I have obviously failed in making the point to you at least that the entire ideology of hunting ethics is in itself a "grey area". I have accepted that reality long ago and have personally decided to be honest about it for what it is. I cannot, in good faith, pass judgment on those who participate in any legal hunting practices that I personally do not agree with especially when that "grey area" is so vast across the hunting spectrum. I'm a lot of things but hypocrite is not among them.

No further comment in regard to high fence hunting providing no contribution to conservation or sustainable use?
 

Sarg

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Three Bulls on the right, two laying down look good !

Well it is open to Kruger so yes some times Kruger Buffalo ?

@DWB, yes I think that was the chap, he will remember my well, as I grabbed a wounded Big tusked Warthog Boar by the tail (my first stuck Warthog, tails are too flimsy lol) as it went passed & stuck it, he seemed impressed lol

This one .
My Stuck Warthog  (2).JPG
 

375Fox

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No further comment in regard to high fence hunting providing no contribution to conservation or sustainable use?
Please reference earlier posts. Your bias must have got in way of reading.
 

BSO Dave

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Using legal as a standard is why we lost the fight to import lions into the USA from a multitude of countries. The antis used the canned lion hunts in RSA, which was legal, to bolster their arguments for banning imports for lions from all other countries.
Firstly, if we are being honest with ourselves, this fight was lost because the anti's threw far more money and propaganda into the battle. Cecil and the false narratives created from that social media debacle fated the lion importation issue. Lots of blame and regret to go around for everyone on that one. In my opinion, the SCI (along wit the hunting community in general) dropped the biggest ball in the history on that one. Their response was the best example of getting out behind on an issue as I have ever seen.

Secondly, If not a legal one, what other argument would you have made? An "ethical" one in that that there are 2 differing kinds of lion hunting in Africa with one being moral and ethical, while the other is evil and unethical? Do you really believe that would make any difference to those pushing for the ban, or that they would even understand or care about the differences? These people don't know shit about lions and they could care less. They politicized this and that was it's demise. Ultimately that will be hunting's demise.

Lastly, I really don't know how many more ways I can say this.. I am not now, nor have I ever contended that if its "legal" it is right, or beyond reproach. If we don't like the laws, we have means in place to change them. Until then, I choose to reserve judgment and hunt by my own set of ethics.
 

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Please reference earlier posts. Your bias must have got in way of reading.
You shot off your mouth making a broad, inaccurate, and offensive generalization about how high fenced hunting operations in Africa offer no contributions to conservation or habitat preservation efforts. In the form of several rhetorical questions to better highlight your ignorance, I listed a multitude of very specific ways in which these operations offer significant benefits to the game, the habitat, and hunting conservation overall. You avoided answering the questions, yet you compare me as Biden..? LOL.. So, what am I supposed to reference exactly? Earlier ignorant or inaccurate assertions? I thought I have covered those pretty well..
Joe Biden doesn’t know the difference either, so it’s ok
This is the sort of stuff that tells me that you got nothing left. Actually, when you replied in a condescending manner earlier, that told me you had nothing. Typically when folks on here cannot substantiate any of their arguments and are made to look foolish, they resort to talking sh#t, or name calling like 8 year olds..

Yeah, that's me.. Just like Biden.. I'm the one here that is rambling nonsensically.. LMFAO! :LOL:
 

WAB

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Three Bulls on the right, two laying down look good !

Well it is open to Kruger so yes some times Kruger Buffalo ?

@DWB, yes I think that was the chap, he will remember my well, as I grabbed a wounded Big tusked Warthog Boar by the tail (my first stuck Warthog, tails are too flimsy lol) as it went passed & stuck it, he seemed impressed lol

This one .
View attachment 395838

Yep, we looked at them a long time and finally concluded that they were not the age class we were looking for. A few more years and they will get very interesting!
 

CBH Australia

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Just hunting one would be a great experience.
Even a Water Buffalo would be good. I would like to hunt Buffalo. Its all about the experience and a trophy if that's your thing.
 

Sarg

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@WAB if that is the bull in your Avatar, yes he looks older but maybe a bit less spread, were you hunting for under 40in & over a certain age 8-10years or some such deal ?
 

revturbo9967

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Firstly, if we are being honest with ourselves, this fight was lost because the anti's threw far more money and propaganda into the battle.
I believe this is a bit off. The hunters are the ones who lost this battle. For every 1 hunter whom is a true conservationist, there are 5 selfish a holes with a bow,gun or spear trying to get the next kill for their Instagram account or Facebook profile picture. Their only care in the world is the self gratification they seek. The world is full of hunters like these, who are only looking to shoot something for the glory, the outdoor channel is flooded with them. These are the individuals who have a dog in the fight, but have zero clue what hunting ethics even mean or how to truly conserve and the anti’s are relentless and patient, sitting on their stoop for one of these block heads to give them more fuel for the fire...
 

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You shot off your mouth making a broad, inaccurate, and offensive generalization about how high fenced hunting operations in Africa offer no contributions to conservation or habitat preservation efforts.
Here’s my view on high fences from a previous post and other threads as well since you inaccurately quoted me. “The issue isn’t a high fence, it’s how it gets used. If it’s used to protect and improve what’s inside, I’m glad it’s there. If it’s used just to stock what’s inside, that’s a different situation.” If you refuse to recognize a difference between wild unfenced, wild managed high fence, put and take high fence, and the grey area in between we can’t have a discussion. Hopefully you’ll get a chance to see the difference someday and expand your objective, unbiased view.
 

WAB

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@WAB if that is the bull in your Avatar, yes he looks older but maybe a bit less spread, were you hunting for under 40in & over a certain age 8-10years or some such deal ?

No limit, 10+ years. The bull in my avatar is 42” and has the biggest bosses I’ve seen on any buff. The Klaserie folks aged him at 12.

Some of the bulls in the pic were much wider but still a bit young. None had the mass of the one I took.
 

Philip Glass

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SA depends on the situation. Is it a breeding herd on a huge game ranch or a few bulls turned out to hunt? Can be a really good hunt.
I’ve hunted Caprivi and it is an experience. The shot a buff out of a herd of 500. I’ve also hunted the Zambezi valley and it is a tough hunt but a good value for buff these days.
Philip
 

matt vejar

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I hunted two Cape buffalo and leopard in the Zambezi escarpment successfully in 2002. My next buffalo would be inRSA in 2019 in Kalahari. When doing my research a guy who had hunted 17 buffalo in Tanzania made a very astute observation. “ the last 100 yards of a buffalo stalk is pretty much the same anywhere you hunt”. This bore out to be true in my opinion after shooting just 3 buffalo. However all the rest of the hunt was on opposite ends of the spectrum. I have no problem hunting fenced areas - done a lot of it and bigger the better- having said that if you can only afford an enclosure buffalo hunt by all means do it. Just choose wisely. In my case the outfitter lost the great big enclosed concession I researched and trucked in Buffalo for the hunt on a much smaller concession. If you think you can only do it once I would save for a free range hunt anywhere else in Africa that way you 100% avoid my debacle. Buffalo can really take a hit and it’s worth the experience once anywhere.
 

WAB

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SA depends on the situation. Is it a breeding herd on a huge game ranch or a few bulls turned out to hunt? Can be a really good hunt.
I’ve hunted Caprivi and it is an experience. The shot a buff out of a herd of 500. I’ve also hunted the Zambezi valley and it is a tough hunt but a good value for buff these days.
Philip

The other option in SA are the Kruger reserves; Klaserie, Timbavati, Letaba, etc. Large reserves open to Kruger with herds freely moving in and out.
 

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Here’s my view on high fences from a previous post and other threads as well since you inaccurately quoted me. “The issue isn’t a high fence, it’s how it gets used. If it’s used to protect and improve what’s inside, I’m glad it’s there. If it’s used just to stock what’s inside, that’s a different situation.” If you refuse to recognize a difference between wild unfenced, wild managed high fence, put and take high fence, and the grey area in between we can’t have a discussion. Hopefully you’ll get a chance to see the difference someday and expand your objective, unbiased view.
For all the good hunts that exist in South Africa, there are still a lot of put and take hunts too. It’s still easy to find YouTube videos of only bulls in a hunting area and less than wild buffalo. It doesn’t exist in unfenced areas, so still extremely important to research. The only market for bulls in breeding operations that have finished breeding or bull calves from these operations is hunting. Not saying these won’t give someone a good hunt, but it bothers me the definitions of free range, fair chase, self sustaining continue being altered and the continued excuse it’s only a few bad operations.
In looking back, that's not exactly what you said was it? What you actually did was make a backhanded innuendo slighting "some" high fenced hunting outfitters and then cherry-picked 3 videos supposedly depicting what you consider to be canned, unethical hunts taking place on high fenced properties making it look as if this is the norm as opposed to the exception. You contradict yourself in the same paragraph. You then followed that up in subsequent posts by making broad inaccurate generalizations of high fence hunting having no value whatsoever in conservation efforts... Maybe you should reread your own posts before admonishing me to reread mine.. Now you are backstroking and accusing me of the one being "biased" in my view. The irony and hypocrisy here is laugh-out loud hysterical.

If you wish to continue this, I invite you to reply via private message so we may spare the rest of the forum readers the tedious back and forth. If you wish to continue to reply publically that's fine too.. I will be happy to go down the condescending name-calling route with you to the extent that the moderators have had enough of both of us. I will never capitulate until I am proven wrong by the facts.. Your call..
 

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I believe this is a bit off. The hunters are the ones who lost this battle. For every 1 hunter whom is a true conservationist, there are 5 selfish a holes with a bow,gun or spear trying to get the next kill for their Instagram account or Facebook profile picture. Their only care in the world is the self gratification they seek. The world is full of hunters like these, who are only looking to shoot something for the glory, the outdoor channel is flooded with them. These are the individuals who have a dog in the fight, but have zero clue what hunting ethics even mean or how to truly conserve and the anti’s are relentless and patient, sitting on their stoop for one of these block heads to give them more fuel for the fire...

Hmmm? Do you really believe that the number of legal, ethical hunters are the minority of all hunters? I believe the opposite to be true. I think the data from the number of hunting licenses and tags issued in the USA annually compared to the number of game violations is a pretty good indicator that responsible hunters vastly outnumber the ones who disregard the laws.

In specific regard to the A-holes that you speak, I think these various media platforms give them a disproportionately high exposure compared to the actual number of legal, ethical hunters that are out there who are not represented on social media. I do agree that some of this material they post often portray hunters negatively on social media. However, the problem we all have in common is that in the view of an anti-hunter, or even a non-hunter, there are no such distinctions made in the nuances of what constitutes moral, ethical hunting & conservation practices. As an example, even when my meat-eating, non-hunting friends see a video of an elephant hunt, their first reaction is of horror and sadness for the animal. They usually come around to a reasonable acceptance when they learn that the meat from the animal will feed a village for months. But, without my ability to inform them, they would have had a negative view of what is in reality a legal, ethical, hunt that contributes to conservation in ways that are unseen from any photo or video. Without the ability for us to take the initiative to educate and inform, all non or anti-hunters all deniers and skeptics of concepts like sustainable use hunting & conservation, In their eyes, we are all cold-blooded murderers guilty until proven innocent.

In specific regard to the Cecil fiasco, is it your opinion that Dr. Palmer was acting as a A-hole by posting his hunting pictures on social media? I saw the pictures and they were no different than any other of the millions of trophy pictures of proud hunters posing with their kills that I have seen since I have been hunting.. The media hysteria over Cecil started when information got out about the lion having a GPS collar thus allowing the anti's to spin the false narrative that this was an illegal hunt of a "pet lion"... If the subsequent lion importation ban was the direct result of lion hunting photos or videos, the anti's had plenty of ammo to use long before Cecil got whacked. The false narrative that they were able to create was the final torpedo into a ship that was already taking on water.

So, my question to you is are you asserting that anyone on here who has ever posted a trophy picture or hunt video of themselves on AH.com or any other hunting forum is also an A-hole guilty of the same supposed crime? I'm Sorry.. I just do not agree that taking a picture posing with your kill is a negative reflection upon hunting. I do understand that in today's world, real ramifications can and do result from hunters who share their hunting experiences publically. I think this is a tragedy of the times, and I feel bad for those hunters who cannot share their passion of hunting without retribution from the mob. Having said that, hiding from the anti-hunting mob and avoiding exposure is the absolute wrong thing to do in regard to the future of hunting rights. Haven't we learned by now that this strategy doesn't work?
 

revturbo9967

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Hmmm? Do you really believe that the number of legal, ethical hunters are the minority of all hunters? I believe the opposite to be true. I think the data from the number of hunting licenses and tags issued in the USA annually compared to the number of game violations is a pretty good indicator that responsible hunters vastly outnumber the ones who disregard the laws.

In specific regard to the A-holes that you speak, I think these various media platforms give them a disproportionately high exposure compared to the actual number of legal, ethical hunters that are out there who are not represented on social media. I do agree that some of this material they post often portray hunters negatively on social media. However, the problem we all have in common is that in the view of an anti-hunter, or even a non-hunter, there are no such distinctions made in the nuances of what constitutes moral, ethical hunting & conservation practices. As an example, even when my meat-eating, non-hunting friends see a video of an elephant hunt, their first reaction is of horror and sadness for the animal. They usually come around to a reasonable acceptance when they learn that the meat from the animal will feed a village for months. But, without my ability to inform them, they would have had a negative view of what is in reality a legal, ethical, hunt that contributes to conservation in ways that are unseen from any photo or video. Without the ability for us to take the initiative to educate and inform, all non or anti-hunters all deniers and skeptics of concepts like sustainable use hunting & conservation, In their eyes, we are all cold-blooded murderers guilty until proven innocent.

In specific regard to the Cecil fiasco, is it your opinion that Dr. Palmer was acting as a A-hole by posting his hunting pictures on social media? I saw the pictures and they were no different than any other of the millions of trophy pictures of proud hunters posing with their kills that I have seen since I have been hunting.. The media hysteria over Cecil started when information got out about the lion having a GPS collar thus allowing the anti's to spin the false narrative that this was an illegal hunt of a "pet lion"... If the subsequent lion importation ban was the direct result of lion hunting photos or videos, the anti's had plenty of ammo to use long before Cecil got whacked. The false narrative that they were able to create was the final torpedo into a ship that was already taking on water.

So, my question to you is are you asserting that anyone on here who has ever posted a trophy picture or hunt video of themselves on AH.com or any other hunting forum is also an A-hole guilty of the same supposed crime? I'm Sorry.. I just do not agree that taking a picture posing with your kill is a negative reflection upon hunting. I do understand that in today's world, real ramifications can and do result from hunters who share their hunting experiences publically. I think this is a tragedy of the times, and I feel bad for those hunters who cannot share their passion of hunting without retribution from the mob. Having said that, hiding from the anti-hunting mob and avoiding exposure is the absolute wrong thing to do in regard to the future of hunting rights. Haven't we learned by now that this strategy doesn't work?
I'm not going to jump into an argument. Lets agree to disagree.
 

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