How (I Personally Believe) The Future Of Hunting Can Be Saved

[375Fox]

Major, I find this segment to be the most interesting so far. I have a bit of a different take on it though. I’m 31 and would like to hunt in Africa for another 40 or 50 years I hope. In my opinion, the future of African hunting is going to depend on importation into the United States (and Europe) and this is going to depend on public perception of hunting. Captive bred lion hunting adds no conservation value and really hurts the image of trophy hunting. My issue isn’t with killing a captive bred lion, it is with the damage this causes to the hunting image leading to public support to ban trophy importation from the non-hunting neutral public. If the hunting you are doing isn’t contributing to conservation it can’t be defended. Lions are unfortunately an emotional animal to a lot of people. Raising lions on a farm to be released, tracked down and shot a month later is impossible to defend. The arguments for doing it here on other threads always comes down to just money and I think that is a very short term view.
Another issue I see is with lead shot. The amount of resistance to copper or steel is very surprising to me. Steel shot has greatly improved but the old arguments continue. Lead is toxic, every box of 25 bullets is 1 pound, whether that be shot in a dove field, clay course, or a duck pond. Cheap lead bullets lose most of their mass passing through an animal, those fragments are still there. It’s really sad to me to know eagles die of lead poisoning after deer season here in Pennsylvania because of eating gut piles with lead fragments just because they were the cheapest bullet on the shelf. A hunter here actually made the argument to me that the game commission did such a good job bringing the eagles back it’s ok if a few die from lead poisoning, which I think is really sad way to think. We have good steel and copper options now it’s not necessary.
My point with these two topics is the support every hunter just because we are hunters argument is foolish. Pushing for reasonable reforms ourselves will improve our image to the non-hunting public instead of having other groups push it on us. This is how I see hunting being preserved in the long run.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Step 4 : UNITY

“ Canned Lion Hunting is sick ! “ , “ Why would you need a semi automatic rifle for hunting ? “ , “ An A R 15 is an assault weapon . Why would anyone purchase 1 of those , for hunting ? “ , “ I hunt ducks and deer for food . But Trophy Hunting is a sick activity ! “ , “ I shoot Cape buffaloes , but why on earth ... Would anyone wish to shoot a lion ? “ , “ I hunt in Africa a lot . But you have to be a real psychopath ... To want to shoot an elephant . “ , “ I love hunting eland , but why on earth ... Would anyone wish to hunt a giraffe ? “ , “ If you use a small caliber on your game animal , then you clearly do not respect the animal enough to deserve to hunt it . “ , “ No real sports man , ever participates in a driven hunt ! “ , “ Hunting over dogs , is cruel ! No real hunter hunts this way . “ , “ Repeating rifles are unsportsmanlike . True sports men only use single shot rifles , or doubles .“ , “ Bow hunting is barbaric ! “ , “ Hunting deer with buck shot , should be completely banned ! It is so cruel ! “ , “ A .375 Holland & Holland magnum is all you really need to hunt the world . If you use a bigger caliber , then you simply can not shoot straight . “ , “ If you need a rifle with 6 cartridges in the magazine , then you do not deserve to be hunting ... Any way “, “ Baited hunts are unsportsmanlike. “ , “ Hunting at night should be banned . “ , Those who pose with their slain game animals for photographs , do not respect the animal which we are hunting ... At all . “ , “ If you are truly an ethical hunter , then do not hunt with iron sights “ .


The above is a sample of just some of the more condescending statements ... Which are often made by members of the international hunting community , in regards to other hunters . In American terms , “ We are always after each other’s asses “ . We are too pushy about our views and philosophies ... Which we always attempt to shove down the throats of other hunters , by attempting to impose up on them .

During our time ... We were no different . Back when I used to be a professional shikaree in Nagpur , India ( From 1961 - 1970 ) ... There were 14 different shikar out fitters , all across India . And we were damned competitive , with 1 another . This competitiveness often turned in to indirect hostility . Each out fitter was so desperate to attract more clients ... That they were always pettily attempting to defame the other out fitters . This had some pretty negative effects on the Indian hunting industry ... As a whole .

Some examples of such defamation , included :
> If the client of another shikar out fitter , took even a dove with out a license ...Then , the owner of Allwyn Cooper Limited ( The out fitter which I was under the employment of ) would see to it ... That Indian tabloids circulated the news like wild fire .
> If a client of Allwyn Cooper Limited lost a gaur bison , after wounding it ... Then , the owner of Rao Naidu Shikar Limited would go around spreading the rumor ... That Allwyn Cooper Limited’s shikarees were letting wounded game animals escape , only to die lingering deaths in the thickets .
> If a professional shikaree working for Rao Naidu Shikar Limited , was forced to dispatch an unlicensed animal ( In order to save his client’s life , or the life of someone else in the shikar party ) ... Then , the owner of Sundar Raj Shikar Limited would immediately bring it to the public’s attention ... That Rao Naidu Shikar Limited’s employees were decimating India’s wild life , by not adhering to any bag limits .
> If a client of Sundar Raj Shikar Limited , took his royal Bengal tiger over bait ... Then , the owner of Allwyn Cooper Limited would go around circulating the rumor that Sundar Raj Shikar Limited ... Was offering shikars via “ Unsporting Methods “ .

In hind sight ... It is quite clear to see how the ( Silently , but steadily ) growing anti hunting crowd in India , was able to exploit this behavior to their benefit . The lack of unity amongst India’s professional shikar out fitters ... Was partially responsible for leading to our eventual down fall , in 1972 . Our “ Bitching “ about each other ... Was merely providing more ammunition for the Indira Gandhi regime , to publicly demonize hunters , fire arms owners and meat eaters before the ignorant masses .

Today , things are no different . Some hunters are critical of “ Canned Lion Hunting “ . Some hunters believe that you should not hunt with semi automatic weapons . Some hunters believe that you should only hunt with telescopic sights . Some hunters believe that using small calibers on game animals , is inhumane . Some hunters believe that buck shot should be banned , from being used on 4 legged game . Some hunters believe that certain animals are acceptable quarry ... While others are not . Some hunters believe that driven hunts are immoral ... While other hunters believe that baited hunts are immoral . Some hunters loathe the concept of hunting at night . Some hunters believe that only single shot or double barreled rifles should be used , for sporting purposes . The list of different philosophies could no on , for ever .


The infamous John Pondoro Taylor ( Author of “ African Rifles & Cartridges “ ) actually made 1 such comment in his book ... Which made my blood boil . He had the gall to make the statement that repeating rifles should be prohibited ... From being used against African game animals .

I personally believe that despite all of our differing views on how to go about our business ... The international hunting community is solidly united by 1 strong fact : That we hunt . Could a stronger form of unity ever exist ? I think not . We all must bear in mind ... That in the eyes of the anti hunting crowd , ANYONE WHO HUNTS is evil . This should be all the more motivation , for us to put our differences aside ... And stand with 1 another . Let us not condemn our brother sports men ... But rather stand with them , in solidarity .

Let me tell you all a little bit ... About how hunting restrictions and fire arms restrictions are imposed . The anti hunting / anti fire arms crowd operate by separating different groups of hunters , from 1 another ... And then , proceeding to attack them 1 by 1 . Here is an example , of how anti hunters / anti fire arms owners increasingly keep pushing for more restrictions . They go after 1 right , at a time .

Phase 1 : The antis push for a restriction on bump stocks . Virtually none of the hunting community cares enough ... To actually protest against the antis and their howling . The government bans bump stocks . No one in the hunting community actually cares , because “ I have no need for a bump stock “ .

Phase 2 : The antis push for a restriction on high capacity magazines . Most of the hunting community still do not care , because “ You do not need 30 cartridges to shoot a deer “ .The government bans high capacity magazines .

Phase 3 : The antis push for a ban on hand guns . Many members of the hunting community remain indifferent , because “ No body hunts with a hand gun , any way “ . The government bans hand guns .

Phase 4 : The antis push for a ban on semi automatic rifles and shot guns . A fair number of members in the hunting community still do not care ... Because “ Semi automatics are unsporting ! “

Phase 5 : The antis push for a ban on pump rifles and shot guns . Now , majority of the hunting community finally DO begin to care .

Variations of these phases naturally exist . For instance , when I visited Australia in 1979 to hunt Mag Pie Geese and a kangaroo ... It was legal to hunt kangaroos in Australia , with a shot gun . I took this magnificent specimen , at night ... Over torch light , with my “ Old Belgian “ .
View attachment 353438

I used an Eley Alphamax 2.75 inch “ High Brass “ AAA cartridge . 44 pellets of English AAA to the head of the brute , at a distance of 5 meters ... Folded him cleanly . Years later , when I revisited New South Wales ... I learnt that it was now legally prohibited to use shot guns , for the hunting of kangaroos . I also learnt that the after math of the tragic “ Port Arthur Massacre “ had culminated in the prohibitions on the civilian ownership of semi automatic and pump shot guns and rifles .

In Great Britain , the same crowd who pushed for a ban on fox hunting ( And succeeded, mind you ) ... Is now the crowd who is going after deer stalking and driven grouse shooting , in an attempt to have them banned . Clearly , getting fox hunting banned ... Did not appease these people , in the slightest . It merely emboldened them , and made their barking louder . And become EVEN MORE unreasonable , in their agendas and demands . Giving these retards a mere inch ... Makes them greedy for an entire mile .

So ... Why are we always proven wrong , when we assume that caving in to 1 of the demands of the antis ... Will appease them ? I believe that Harrison Ford said it best , in his excellent film “ Air Force 1 “ - “ Give a mouse a cookie ... And he shall want a glass of milk , to go with it . “

I firmly detest the idea of hunters turning the other way ... While other hunters have their rights RIPPED away from them, by governments which pander to the anti hunting crowd . It is an act of selfishness and cowardice . It might not immediately seem so ... But always remember this : If someone manages to take away 1 of our rights ... Then , there is nothing to stop them against going after all of our other rights ... As well . Regardless of any potential internal differences ... The international hunting community MUST stand together . If we intend to win this , that is .

Now , does this mean that we should tolerate all sorts of irresponsible behavior displayed by some of our fellow hunters ? Absolutely not . Irresponsible behavior should always be called out ... As it is seen . Allow me to provide a very basic example , of such behavior . On “ You Tube “ , there are countless videos of a certain African White Hunter ( Whom I shall refrain from naming , due to professional courtesy ) ... Who has a reputation for deliberately wounding Cape buffaloes and hippopotamuses , in order to provoke them in to charging towards him . They make for thrilling videos to be sure ... But ( Ignoring ethics , for a moment ) this sort of conduct is also extremely counterproductive . The objective of hunting ANY game animal ... is to dispatch it as quickly as possible ( Preferably , with the very 1st shot ) . Prolonging an animal’s suffering , just to make a more thrilling video ... Merely provides the anti hunting crowd , with more ammunition to slander the true lovers of this noble sport ... And give us a bad name .

My dear friend Ponton
Regardless of how we hunt we should all respect each other's rights and beliefs as hunters. Hell I even respect people that poach for food for their families.
I DONT condone poaching for profit or for the sake of getting a better trophy illegally BUT I can understand poaching to provide food for your family.
We as hunters need to be united to avoid what is in the picture I am posting.
This is what happened in Australia after the port Arthur massacre. We lost the right to have semi auto weapons. Yes we as shooter did protest loudly but Joe public was outraged and agreed with the government knee jerk reaction to ban them. We are fortunate to have what we still do and fortunately we have the SSAA promoting our sport and the Shooters, Fishers and Farmers party in government supporting us.
On to of this we have a very strict firearms licensing system and storage regulations.

That was the type of shit we put up with. Figures from the bureau of statistics actually has a decrease in gun crime and an increase in the amount of licensing for guns.
UNITE DON'T LET RHIS HAPPEN TO YOU.
People say to me, your Aboriginal why don't you hunt with a Spear.
I reply
I do, it's a 25 caliber Speer launched out of my rifle at over 3,000 feet a second.
I have a quiet chuckle and walk off.
Your humble reader and friend
Bob Nelson

 

[Saul]

The food and travel shows of Anthony Bourdain and Gordon Ramsey have done a great job of explaining both the cultural and ecological aspects of hunting, as well as actually showing the hosts participating.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Major, I find this segment to be the most interesting so far. I have a bit of a different take on it though. I’m 31 and would like to hunt in Africa for another 40 or 50 years I hope. In my opinion, the future of African hunting is going to depend on importation into the United States (and Europe) and this is going to depend on public perception of hunting. Captive bred lion hunting adds no conservation value and really hurts the image of trophy hunting. My issue isn’t with killing a captive bred lion, it is with the damage this causes to the hunting image leading to public support to ban trophy importation from the non-hunting neutral public. If the hunting you are doing isn’t contributing to conservation it can’t be defended. Lions are unfortunately an emotional animal to a lot of people. Raising lions on a farm to be released, tracked down and shot a month later is impossible to defend. The arguments for doing it here on other threads always comes down to just money and I think that is a very short term view.
Another issue I see is with lead shot. The amount of resistance to copper or steel is very surprising to me. Steel shot has greatly improved but the old arguments continue. Lead is toxic, every box of 25 bullets is 1 pound, whether that be shot in a dove field, clay course, or a duck pond. Cheap lead bullets lose most of their mass passing through an animal, those fragments are still there. It’s really sad to me to know eagles die of lead poisoning after deer season here in Pennsylvania because of eating gut piles with lead fragments just because they were the cheapest bullet on the shelf. A hunter here actually made the argument to me that the game commission did such a good job bringing the eagles back it’s ok if a few die from lead poisoning, which I think is really sad way to think. We have good steel and copper options now it’s not necessary.
My point with these two topics is the support every hunter just because we are hunters argument is foolish. Pushing for reasonable reforms ourselves will improve our image to the non-hunting public instead of having other groups push it on us. This is how I see hunting being preserved in the long run.

@375Fox
Well said young man.
You have a very valid point. Some of us,old farts are set in our ways and change slowly.
You make a good point of introducing new legislation before it is imposed on us but this may be a bit hard.
Your generation and the ones that fillow will have more chance of legitimate change than we oldie have. The best we can hope for is for my generation to support these endeavors and keep introducing the younger generations to our fabulous sport.
Bob Nelson

 

[DieJager]

Major, I find this segment to be the most interesting so far. I have a bit of a different take on it though. I’m 31 and would like to hunt in Africa for another 40 or 50 years I hope. In my opinion, the future of African hunting is going to depend on importation into the United States (and Europe) and this is going to depend on public perception of hunting. Captive bred lion hunting adds no conservation value and really hurts the image of trophy hunting. My issue isn’t with killing a captive bred lion, it is with the damage this causes to the hunting image leading to public support to ban trophy importation from the non-hunting neutral public. If the hunting you are doing isn’t contributing to conservation it can’t be defended. Lions are unfortunately an emotional animal to a lot of people. Raising lions on a farm to be released, tracked down and shot a month later is impossible to defend. The arguments for doing it here on other threads always comes down to just money and I think that is a very short term view.
Another issue I see is with lead shot. The amount of resistance to copper or steel is very surprising to me. Steel shot has greatly improved but the old arguments continue. Lead is toxic, every box of 25 bullets is 1 pound, whether that be shot in a dove field, clay course, or a duck pond. Cheap lead bullets lose most of their mass passing through an animal, those fragments are still there. It’s really sad to me to know eagles die of lead poisoning after deer season here in Pennsylvania because of eating gut piles with lead fragments just because they were the cheapest bullet on the shelf. A hunter here actually made the argument to me that the game commission did such a good job bringing the eagles back it’s ok if a few die from lead poisoning, which I think is really sad way to think. We have good steel and copper options now it’s not necessary.
My point with these two topics is the support every hunter just because we are hunters argument is foolish. Pushing for reasonable reforms ourselves will improve our image to the non-hunting public instead of having other groups push it on us. This is how I see hunting being preserved in the long run.

@375Fox . As a 32 year old Hunter, Let me say I mostly agree with you, certainly on the issue of non-toxic shot and bullets. Albeit bullets in a lesser degree.
I think unity is the key, certainly on issues like CBL Hunting. My opinion is that while you may disagree on the subject it would be wise to tolerate it instead of supporting a ban. I think CBL hunting is a form of conservation. I support the Major's stance, and after a CBL ban they would move the goalpost to banning all lion hunting. That is the endgame.

I agree it is bad PR but a solution would be, I think, is by not posting pictures online with the hunter AND the trophy. Keep them to yourself, it is bad optics. Post a picture of the trophy without the hunter is better optics.

 

[Major Khan]

Step 5 : THE BEST DEFENSE IS A GOOD OFFENSE

Uncivilized behavior can not be counter acted by being civil . The aggressive manner in which the anti hunters attack the noble sport , which we all love so much ... can not be repelled by polite behavior .

If you look at some of the articles , which are published by anti hunters / gun control activists / vegans ... Then , you shall see that they all say the vilest things about about our kind :
> Hunters are typically typically portrayed as impotent people who kill “ Innocent little animals “ ... In order to achieve sexual gratification .
> Fire arms owners are typically portrayed as people who own “ Metal penises , in order to compensate for their small genitals “ .
> Meat eaters are typically portrayed as “ Sadists who enjoy the rotting flesh of sentient beings “ .

I have ( Over the years ) come to notice , that when ever the antis bring up any of their preposterous claims against the hunting community ... We are merely concerned with disproving their claims ,and denying their allegations. In other words ... We are always on the defensive . I personally believe ... That merely acting on the defensive , shall not suffice .

As opposed to merely acting on the defensive ... We all should take advantage of every possible opportunity , to discredit the concepts of anti hunting , gun control and veganism .

When ever the media defames a hunter , by name ( Such as the Sun UK did with Ron Thompson & Tony Sanchez Arino ) ... We should take action against them ( If possible ) . Make the media accountable , to the international hunting community .

Eduardo Goncalves ( The swine whom I have written about , in a previous part of this article ) , in particular ... Is so obsessed with the idea of banning hunting , that he has actually dedicated his life to establishing his own pressure group ( Campaign To Ban Trophy Hunting ) . His newest book , " Trophy Hunting Exposed : Inside The Trophy Hunting Industry " goes so far as to even target Mr. Paul Roberts ( A simple rifle maker ) . I , for 1 ... Personally believe that this person should have some form of legal action , taken against him .

In Bangladesh , even though we are not the developed country in the world ... I am proud to say that we do have a very good policy of taking legal action against defamation . If you write some thing demeaning about another person , and the person decided to press charges ... Then , you are penalized with a fine , or a prison term ( Or both ) .

In Great Britain , we see countless criminals ( Self proclaimed " Hunt Saboteurs " ) who can proudly gloat ( On the internet ) about how they disrupted a group of innocent hunters ... Who were simply minding their own business . These people should be treated like the criminals they are ... And I personally believe that a couple of months in prison would straighten at least some of them out , nicely .

In places like Canada , we see more criminals ( Self proclaimed " Animal Rights Activists " or " Liberators " ) who cause reckless damage to butcheries , abattoirs and live stock farms ... All in the name of " Compassion " . Well ... I say that that none of these criminals should be let off , easy.

We need to push for more serious legal actions to be taken against these people . Punishments , which shall serve as deterrents . Deterrents so strong ... That these vegan bastards and anti hunting lunatics think at least 10 times , prior to attempting to harass or defame hunters / fire arms owners / meat eaters .

A few months ago , I read an interesting article about how an anti hunting group in Belgium ... Had falsely accused a local hunting club of killing a brace of endangered wolves . The local hunting club , instead performed a counter attack ... By using the anti hunting group for " Libel " . The anti hunting group ended up paying a great deal of monetary compensation to the hunters ... For the trouble which they had caused .


61 years of personal experience as a shikaree , and 49 years of experiencing a hunting ban in India have taught me ... That the international hunting community can not secure a problem free future , just by defending ourselves from the antis . We must take actions , so as to prevent these miscreants from coming after us ... Altogether .

The defense is always going to be a good offense .

 

[Major Khan]

CONCLUSION

Before I conclude this article ( And commence responding to all of my kind commenters ) ... I have a few final words to say .

I am neither a scientist , nor am I a public figure ( I only have an English literature University degree ! ) . I am merely a man , who goes by results ... Alone . As a hunter , and someone who is extremely passionate about hunting ... I am a person who ( Like all of us ) is simply concerned about having what I love most , taken away from me ... Again .

I know that I have voiced some extremely radical views and opinions , on this article ... About what should be done to secure the future of hunting . Many of you , might not agree with me . Many of you , are far more well read ... Than I . Many of you , may also be far more sensible than I .

How ever , I will tell you all 1 thing ... Which I DO have. EXPERIENCE . I am the only 1 on African Hunting Forums ... Who has actually had a hunting ban occur in his birth country , during his life time . I lived through that hunting ban and immigrated to an other country ... Because I love hunting / fire arms and meat eating THAT MUCH .

While most of you FEAR the idea of a hunting ban being implemented ... I am the only 1 who ACTUALLY experienced a hunting ban take place in his country .

I watched 1 of the greatest hunting Meccas in the entire world ... Turn in to a socialist vegan utopia , right before my very eyes . And I know the mistakes which we made ... To let this tragedy occur .

I know that some of my views and statements on this article ... Are not very politically correct , and are certainly quite controversial . But believe me . My intentions are pure .

As someone who actually lived through a hunting ban in his birth country ... I implore all of you . Do not let what happened to my country .... Happen to the rest of the world .

The little boy in the photograph ( Between me and @Kawshik Rahman ) is now an adult ... Who enjoys hunting , very much . Some day , his children should be able to keep enjoying our noble sport ... As well .

We can still save this .

 

[Shootist43]

Poton, a couple of the African countries that previously allowed hunting now ban it. It seems to me that one of those countries is trying to "open up" hunting once again. Your comments about "us" giving an inch and the antis want to take a mile are spot on. In fact the NRA is often accused of not acquiescing to "reasonable" gun rights restrictions. The NRA's response has been exactly what you mentioned. BTW there is a lot more truth in what you said than some might be willing to admit.

You ROCK Poton!!!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Step 5 : THE BEST DEFENSE IS A GOOD OFFENSE

Uncivilized behavior can not be counter acted by being civil . The aggressive manner in which the anti hunters attack the noble sport , which we all love so much ... can not be repelled by polite behavior .

If you look at some of the articles , which are published by anti hunters / gun control activists / vegans ... Then , you shall see that they all say the vilest things about about our kind :
> Hunters are typically typically portrayed as impotent people who kill “ Innocent little animals “ ... In order to achieve sexual gratification .
> Fire arms owners are typically portrayed as people who own “ Metal penises , in order to compensate for their small genitals “ .
> Meat eaters are typically portrayed as “ Sadists who enjoy the rotting flesh of sentient beings “ .

I have ( Over the years ) come to notice , that when ever the antis bring up any of their preposterous claims against the hunting community ... We are merely concerned with disproving their claims ,and denying their allegations. In other words ... We are always on the defensive . I personally believe ... That merely acting on the defensive , shall not suffice .

As opposed to merely acting on the defensive ... We all should take advantage of every possible opportunity , to discredit the concepts of anti hunting , gun control and veganism .

When ever the media defames a hunter , by name ( Such as the Sun UK did with Ron Thompson & Tony Sanchez Arino ) ... We should take action against them ( If possible ) . Make the media accountable , to the international hunting community .

Eduardo Goncalves ( The swine whom I have written about , in a previous part of this article ) , in particular ... Is so obsessed with the idea of banning hunting , that he has actually dedicated his life to establishing his own pressure group ( Campaign To Ban Trophy Hunting ) . His newest book , " Trophy Hunting Exposed : Inside The Trophy Hunting Industry " goes so far as to even target Mr. Paul Roberts ( A simple rifle maker ) . I , for 1 ... Personally believe that this person should have some form of legal action , taken against him .

In Bangladesh , even though we are not the developed country in the world ... I am proud to say that we do have a very good policy of taking legal action against defamation . If you write some thing demeaning about another person , and the person decided to press charges ... Then , you are penalized with a fine , or a prison term ( Or both ) .

In Great Britain , we see countless criminals ( Self proclaimed " Hunt Saboteurs " ) who can proudly gloat ( On the internet ) about how they disrupted a group of innocent hunters ... Who were simply minding their own business . These people should be treated like the criminals they are ... And I personally believe that a couple of months in prison would straighten at least some of them out , nicely .

In places like Canada , we see more criminals ( Self proclaimed " Animal Rights Activists " or " Liberators " ) who cause reckless damage to butcheries , abattoirs and live stock farms ... All in the name of " Compassion " . Well ... I say that that none of these criminals should be let off , easy.

We need to push for more serious legal actions to be taken against these people . Punishments , which shall serve as deterrents . Deterrents so strong ... That these vegan bastards and anti hunting lunatics think at least 10 times , prior to attempting to harass or defame hunters / fire arms owners / meat eaters .

A few months ago , I read an interesting article about how an anti hunting group in Belgium ... Had falsely accused a local hunting club of killing a brace of endangered wolves . The local hunting club , instead performed a counter attack ... By using the anti hunting group for " Libel " . The anti hunting group ended up paying a great deal of monetary compensation to the hunters ... For the trouble which they had caused .


61 years of personal experience as a shikaree , and 49 years of experiencing a hunting ban in India have taught me ... That the international hunting community can not secure a problem free future , just by defending ourselves from the antis . We must take actions , so as to prevent these miscreants from coming after us ... Altogether .

The defense is always going to be a good offense .

My dear friend Ponton
We are blessed in Australia that every time the animal lingers or anti gun nuts come out our SSAA goes on the offensive and defamed them in print. They have even gone as far to put in print with all the right information and statistics that the RSPCA is funding some of the animal lingers groups.
Our police also take a dim view of these people invading farms and other places and arresting these fools and taking them to court where they are imposed fines and restraining orders but this only slows them down. Yes in Australia we are proactive against these bastard people and proud of it.
We even have politicians on tv and tv ad campaigns by the SSAA promoting our beautiful sport and encouraging people to come and try shooting for a day. Some of those that do actually become either target shooters or hunters.
Your humble reader and friend
Bob Nelson

 

[flatwater bill]

Poton..........many people complain about a problem, but never propose a solution. You have a potential solution, and I commend you for it. There are always ostriches when a problem is looming. This thread shows that AH is no exception. Had I told anyone 20 years ago that we might lose freedom of speech in the USA, they would have only laughed. But here we are.
Similarly with the anti hunting threat. We actually have no idea what the worldwide cumulative opinion on hunting is right now. In 2017 Byrd and Widman published a good scientific paper that showed, in a huge sample, that 63% of Americans (that word is banned at CSU) are opposed to trophy hunting. Though the majority approved some form of hunting. In the UK, four large studies in the last 10 years all ran about 70% opposed to any hunting.
Caveats: Sample populations help determine the result. Poll at a PETA meeting or at an SCI convention, get differing results. Even different wording can have a huge effect. So the data is open to interpretation, but the Byrd, et al study included 65% who had eaten game meet in the last year....so it could have been worse. In the rest of the world, we have no idea.
With only 4.6% hunters in the USA, we could be legislated out in a month when the crowdspeak mob takes control. And if you thing they all like to talk and discuss rationally, look at the AH Forum on "Animal Rights" terrorists. They are often not peaceful at all.
You and PARA45 are right on. Stand up, be counted, know your subject, and never let a man with leather shoes and belt tell you how evil you are. I respect a vegan, but never a hypocrite. Thanks for the post. FW Bill

 

[DieJager]

Last polls in the Netherlands are showing that a majority is for hunting. The Royal Dutch Hunting Association is doing, finally after decades without action, its job. That said it is showing a support for the hunting that takes place over here.

I think support for hunting DG in Africa would not be as favorible. That's a shame because the principle is the same. But babysteps at a time...

 

[Major Khan]

Major , I agree with you , but we also must not forget about people that portray themselves as “hunters” but that act contrary to all accepted ethical standards and with little or no respect for their quarry - it is these people who are also a risk to our passion / sport as they very often supply the best “ammunition “ for the anti- hunting fraternity and do us great damage .

That is quite true , Paul . How ever , I am of view that if 1 hunter acts unethically ... Then , condemn that single hunter and his actions . Not the entire hunting community .

 

[Major Khan]

Until we unite ourselves under one voice, we will eventually loose. I meant unite those who hunt with sporting rifles, those who like doubles, those who like synthetic stock rifles, the long range shooters, those who like to wear cammo, those who like Blaser, etc, etc. We also need to be more vocal. Don't show pictures of your trophy because it hurts our cause, don't do this because it hurts our cause. Don't wear camo because it gives out a bad impression. Don't argue with an anti, because they are irrational and will never understand. BS, we need to stand up to what we believe, be loud and vocal, and if the feelings of those a$$holes is hurts during the process, well, too bad! Get over it. The antis are loud, and very vocal, we on the other hand, are very passive and quiet. We rely on the organizations like DSC, SCI, etc, to do our work.

Are there bad hunters out there. Yes they are, there are bad people all over, but it is our job to stand up and show that not all hunters are like those bad apples.

Your comment really warmed up my heart , PARA 45 . You and I think so much , alike . We have lived enough of our lives ... Worrying about what the “ Tree Huggers “ think . Enough is enough .

 

[Major Khan]

Major, the main issue here in the U.S. is demographics. The boomer generation is dying off and hunter numbers are decreasing. Whether or not this gives an opening to the anti-s, I'm not so sure. One plus here in the U.S. is the Pittman-Robertson act which taxes many types of sporting goods and funds wildlife conservation. It's done a lot to restore what was once a decimated wildlife population and is supported by many non-hunters.

From personal experience , Hog Patrol ... I can attest with 100 % certainty , that the antis ARE attempting to indoctrinate the youth against ALL Republican values ( Including hunting ) .They are entirely aware of the fact that our generation is slowly dying out . That is why they choose the youth to target . It is like 1972 India , all over again . Your speculation is 100 % correct .

 

[Major Khan]

@Major Khan, heretofore you have said very little, if anything, with which I could disagree. However, I'm afraid that's no longer the case - unless I have misinterpreted what you are saying. So there's yet hope!

I believe that the strongest foundation for hunting is mutual respect. So many people - the large majority in North America - are not hunters, but they do not (thereby necessarily) lack respect for those who do hunt. I see that all the time in my interactions with reasonable people. Once they know I am a hunter they may or may express a contrary view, they listen, we exchange stories and facts, and while I won't say many fall to their knees in a conversion experience, I know that many leave with something to think about.

I know many people who consider any form of meat consumption to be immoral. Many Buddhists (and all Jains, but I don't know any Jains) are strict vegetarians for this reason. Yet I have not yet come across one who would denounce me for having a different view (I am sure such people exist, but I have not found one, nor am I looking for one!). I know many vegans and vegetarians who choose not to eat meat for moral reasons, others for ecological reasons, and still others because they just got to the point of not liking meat. Whatever the reason, I am able to eat a steak at the same table and nary a word is said about my menu choice. I wouldn't, under any circumstances, call these people "retards" (a word my children will not let me use, by the way!) and I have do doubt that if they believed I looked at them in that way they would quickly change their opinion of me, as well as hunters, not without justification.

As I've said elsewhere, there is no point in engaging with the minority who would ban hunting all the time everywhere. These people are not open to discussion, logic, tolerance, or anything else which differentiates human beings from animals. If you were referring to these people, then happily we remain on the same page. But those who refuse to eat meat are not thereby included in that category, absent some other qualification. In other words, falling to eat meat is a necessary but not sufficient condition to fall on the wrong side of the line.

Hank , I genuinely respect you as a person and there are few things ... Which you and I disagree on . You have an extremely admirable view of “ Live & Let Live “ . This shows that you are an extremely tolerant , kind hearted person , who lacks any desire to display hostile behavior . You have certainly raised your young 1s well .

I am genuinely apologetic for what I am about to say ... But I do not agree with you on this particular subject matter at all .

For starters , anyone who fails to see that vegans are not a threat a threat to us ... Is failing to see a very big danger towards the international hunting community .


You state that some people do not eat meat , because they consider it to be immoral or because they consider it to be harmful for the ecosystem . THAT IS EXACTLY THE PROBLEM . No matter how politely a vegan or a vegetarian talk to you ... Make no mistake . They view what we are doing ( Hunting and eating meat ) ... To be immoral and environmentally harmful .

ALL of them have this view ... Whether or not , they are outspoken about their views . If if were up to them ... Make no mistake . They would ban hunting and meat eating ... In the blink of an eye . And in India ... That is exactly what they did .

I mean not to call you ignorant ( You are certainly far more sensible than I am , in many matters ) . How ever , please bear in mind ... That while most members of African Hunting Forums merely FEAR the idea of more hunting restrictions , I am the only member of these forums ... Who has ACTUALLY HAD A HUNTING BAN OCCUR IN HIS BIRTH COUNTRY , DURING HIS LIFE TIME .

I watched 1 of the greatest hunting paradises on God’s Green Earth , turn in to a socialist vegan poverty stricken country ... Before my very eyes . And I watched how it slowly happened ... With out caring , or even acknowledging what it would lead to .

The people who banned hunting in India ( The Indira Gandhi regime ) ... Were vegans . And do you know how they won their votes ? By garnering public support , from people who were vegans ... As well .

In Great Britain , the public uproar against hunting only began ... After the concept of veganism started becoming trendy , over there . Pure coincidence ?

If you look at EVERY anti hunting group across the entire globe ... Then , you shall see that the bulk of the members are vegetarians and vegans . The reason for this , is obvious .

People who view animal consumption as immoral or environmentally harmful ... Do not want others to partake in ANY form of animal consumption , whatsoever . Whether they politely smile at you while you go hunting , or actively try to sabotage your hunt ... Makes no difference . They view our way of life ... As wrong .

And people who view our way of life , as wrong ... Invariably want it to be eradicated from this world . Whether they directly attempt to take our way of life from us , or merely support the 1s who do ... Makes no difference .

I give you a guarantee . You destroy the concept of veganism , tomorrow ... And no one will ever attempt to ban hunting , until the end of time .

I also know that my choice of words is not always politically correct in the 21st century ... But I was born in an era where we could call them out , as we saw them . And I do view vegans as retards of the most deranged sort . I hate them for what they took away from me . I hate them for what they did to my birth country . And I hate them , for what they did to our culture and our younger generations .

 

[Major Khan]

Friend Ponton
In Australia we are fortunate to have the Shooters,fishers and farmers party in parliament that stand up for shooters and our rights. They have been responsible for helping open up vast tracts of state forrest for hunting.
We also have The Sporting Shooters Association of Australia that does a great job of promoting shooting sports in Australia as well as having a great youth program and shooting camps for juniors. They also have an initiative called sponsor a junior where an adult member can donate or fund a junior shooter.
Firearm ownership is now growing here due to these organizations and a rebellion against the government to restrict our sport.
Long live our right to hunt.
Speak up and speak out before you loose this wonderful right.
Your humble reader and friend
Bob

I actually used this information in my article , Bob . Thank you much very much for educating me ... On this matter . There is certainly a great deal to learn ... From our brother Australian sports men .

 

[Major Khan]

Take heed Americans, for I can see much the same process happening here in Britain too, and so your time will come.

As far as hunting in Britain goes, it's my view that it's simply a matter of time. The number of hunters remain stable but the average age increases every year and we lost the battle of 'hearts and minds' at least 30 years ago. Many rights have been lost, and once gone, none have ever been returned. I fully expect to see a full ban on civilian firearms ownership within my lifetime and I wouldn't be surprised if hunting goes even sooner than that.

Our mistake really was to not push for good PR when we had a chance. Anti-hunting and anti-shooting media is common here too, from Roald Dahl to Walt Disney to PETA and we, the British sportsmen, never even bothered to respond. At first it was because it was inconcievable that hunting or shooting would be curtailed, then we didn't need semi-autos to hunt, then a few years later what use were pistols for deer stalking anyway? Come the 2000s foxhunting with dogs was on the block, but what relevance did that have to us as shooters?

Then here we are, 2020, when the weight of public opinion (or at least as presented on social media) has fallen irrevocably against us and we don't have the numbers, the resources or the political support to turn the tide. Driven pheasant shooting is next to go I reckon and every year people call for the banning of Grouse shooting. But no lessons have been learnt. I go on UK forums and people are there saying that 'they don't shoot pheasants and don't agree with putting down birds, so who cares if it's banned'. Have they learnt nothing?

Make no mistake, the people still don't largely care, but there is a world of difference between bringing a true moderate with a vague understanding that hunting happens and why it is done on side, and swaying the opinions of the indifferent, but urbanite person with no concept or understanding at all who is liable, if put upon for an opinion, to say they don't support hunting 'because deer are cute, fluffy animals, just like bambi'.

In this situation it is at best a nothing decision and at worst political suicide to come out in support of hunting. No votes wil be won and a politician in the UK who publicly comes out in support of hunting is unlikely to last the next election and so, piece by piece legislation comes in to curb shooting and hunting... all with no proportionate push back from a pro-hunting faction. It's salami tactics, and slim slices at that, but it'll only end up one way in the end.

So. Learnings for countries that still have a chance. 1. Support your political lobbies. Yes, the NRA says some ridiculous shit at times, but make no mistake, they'e doing this sport a world of good over there. 2. Publicise what you do and why to as many people as possible. There are still enough hunters in America as a percentage of population for this to be a normal mainstream activity. Make sure it stays that way! As soon as it's a fringe thing, it can be marginalised and then, you're doomed. 3. Introduce noobs. Seriously, you aren't getting any younger and someone will need to continue to hold the line. 4. Don't budge an inch, ever, on anything. You might not participate in a discipline, you may not get why people need a certain gun, but as soon as a precedent is set that things can be banned, that this can be restricted, you're screwed. Once a right is gone, that's it. It isn't coming back. 5. Accept that you mght need to make financial contributions to this cause. Lobbying aint cheap, and PR is even less so. But if you don't now, soon you'll find you've plenty of cash but no hunting to spend it on.

So that's a load off my chest and a depressing topic for many. So here's a silver lining! I had a skype cal with my new team mates based in Milwaukee this afternoon. One of my new colleagues, a younger guy in his late twenties had for his corporate 'skype / teams / email' picture that shows up right next to the big company banner in all communications with customers, suppliers, comanufacturers, a shot of him smiling happily behind a beautiful whitetail buck he'd shot. In the UK, that'd be ballsy to the point of stupid. You're just inviting a barrage of judgment from suppliers and a 'request' from HR not to have such a 'challenging' topic attached to the company image. In the US, far as I can tell it's not even worthy of comment. So. Very. Refreshing...

Al.

It is truly depressing to see what a once great nation ... Has now become, Alastair . Some of my most talented clients ...Used to hail from Great Britain , during the time of my career . All because no one really took the threat , seriously ... While there was still a chance to do some thing about it . Stopping anti hunting pressure groups , is quite similar to stopping cancer . If you can not stop them at the early stages ... Then , you can not stop them ... At all .

 

[Hogpatrol]

The vegan invasion is alive in well in the U.S. and perpetrated by some of the largest corporations. Want an environmentally friendly plant based burger? Go to Burger King, the second largest burger eatery in the world. Want meatless meat? The big agribusinesses are hard at work in the vegan world. Seven publicly traded corporations listed here:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/7-stocks-buy-ride-vegan-165923819.html

I agree with Major. The Vegans and their movement are an abomination and a threat not only to hunting but to the entire meat producing industry. Personally, I know two of them and both are certified, misguided whack jobs.

 

[Major Khan]

I think one thing missing from your media discussion is YouTube. It is probably the most direct route around any mainstream media that can still reach a huge audience. Dallas Safari Club has a channel and has been putting out quite a few short videos lately. It’s really sad to see how few views the channel gets (including from hunters) only 4 videos have over 1000 views in 4 years most less than 100 and many less than 20 views.

Well , 375Fox ... That is why I have my younger readers , such as yourself . So that you can educate me on the more up to date methods of ensuring that our message reaches the masses .

 

[Major Khan]

I’ve done my very best to raise independent, free thinkers.... while introducing them to what I know, think & like/enjoy.... not all of those things align with my wife. However, she shares the same philosophy. I am fortunate to have kids that love the outdoors, hunting. Fishing, etc.... once they “take the bait”, so to speak.... we enrich them with the knowledge & passion that we have. It’s baby steps & spoon fed. Hopefully, it takes roots. It starts with us.... and if we don’t share that, it ends with us. Statistically speaking, the odds are they won’t just happen upon it later in life.

By raising your children property ... You have done your bit , for the international hunting community ... BWH . And I 100 % agree with you . My maternal grand father taught me to love the noble art of shikar ... Ever since I was 3 years old . Parents have a moral responsibility to raising their children ... With good , strong values .