How hard is too hard?!?!

[Michael70]

The question I am asking involves the magnitude of impact required to affect the movement of POA in a variable scope mounted on my M70 373H&H.

The background to this story commenced on a regulation meat hunt where we had gone for the afternoon to roll over some young scrub cattle for the freezer. We were targeting the youngsters and eventually caught up with a few that I laid the crosshairs on.

The first was a young bull probably 60-65 metres away, standing side on with a fellow young bull. His head and neck were above the grass line (which is about chest high in this place), he obliged and held still for a moment. Not wanting to waste any meat with a body shot, I took aim between the eye and the ear. Boom!!.......and he raced off with his mate none the worse for wear.

Shocked, I followed the departing animals with the movement of the vegetation, but they had been swallowed up before a follow up presented. Ego bruised, we hunted on.

We found a small herd on the edge of a billabong hiding behind some trees and the ever-present grass, which is uncontrollable this time of year. Not going to mess this one up.

Crawling through the grass, (yes, it is useful for something) I closed the gap to about 50 metres and placed the crosshairs on the forehead of the youngest animal facing us. I could almost taste the back straps and rump steaks that were coming off his small but fat frame when, boom went the bangstick again……as before, he bucked, spun around and raced off……. none the worse for wear!! Another clean miss.

I sat there in disbelief, my mate stared at me like I had just kicked a puppy, horror and disbelief etched in his face. We had hunted hard for these two golden opportunities, and I had fluffed them both!! I was ready to go home, confidence shattered I contemplated another hobby, too young for lawn bowls I thought.

The scope was out, that’s it…more in hope than with any certainty. It had to be it (or lawn bowls it was going to be) but I needed a visit to the range to confirm. Contacting my mate and fellow AH’er Avon_7 a date was arranged at the range and the future of my hunting career to be determined.

Not trusting myself entirely, I wanted to take my competence (or lack thereof) out of the equation with Avon_7 doing all the shooting. He is a gun target shooter as well as hunter and the gold standard to use if there is any question regarding the nut behind the butt. First shot at 100 metres, five inches high. Vertical, horizontal on bull, second shot same vertical distribution but moved an inch to the right. The gun was shooting high.

Scope adjusted, twenty clicks down with no lateral adjustment. Boom went the third shot and now we were five inches low from the bull. Was the scope cooked? A quick check confirmed that the scope is regulated in ½ minute clicks therefore we overshot the mark. Ten clicks up and the third shot was taken, bull!! I jumped behind the gun and loaded the next round, bang, right on bull but an inch to the right of Avon’s beautifully centred bullseye. Yep, this was done.

Now to the question for my learned friends on this site, how hard is too hard when bumping the rifle around in the car or in the field to move the adjustment? The culprit here is the gun-rack on the front of my quad (or ATV for our non-Aussie friends). This is how I carry the rifle in the field and all I can assume is that the constant and significant movement and knocks affect the zero, along with the ability for the scope to maintain this long term.

Granted the shots taken were at small targets (by virtue of brain shot targets) at ranges under 100 metres, with the scope being high already and allowing for in field variability it would have been easy to miss the brain box so the only way to confirm is to take it back on the bike back in the field and see what happens.

If the scope moves again, I am ripping the bloody thing off and going for open sights only. Ranges are usually well under 100 metres and body shots on buffalo and scrub bulls will be taken. Some wasted meat for sure but I can be assured I will have some meat for the freezer (which is currently empty).

The scope is a 1-6x24 Meopta, brilliant glass and fits the rifle like a glove. No complaints but maybe not strong enough to take the rigours of the quad and rattling on the floodplains. It is a hard gig and I wonder if anyone has successfully used a scope that puts up with this treatment long-term?

Please let me know your thoughts and thank you if you have read my tale of great woe this far.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Check the bedding. You may have an action screw that's loose. Or perhaps the free floating barrel is no longer floating free. You live in an environment where temp and humidity extremes are common. The constant swelling and shrinking can take a toll on wood stocks.

 

[Michael70]

Thank you, Ontario, I do live in an environment of extremes and the humidity at the moment is ridiculous. Something to check and consider.

I have covered the gun and barrel in a thin layer of Restoration Wax rubbed on by hand. Hunting in the wet season everything gets soaked no matter how careful you try to be. The gun doesn't show any signs of swelling, but I haven't pulled it apart to check either.

Might be an idea to get a plastic (yuk!!) or laminate stock to minimise any movement from the original wood stock.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

A very long time ago I subscribed to a magazine that dealt with .50cal Browning they did a long test of scopes on .50 cal.

As I best remember several scopes were defective straight out of the box. Price did not seem to have a great deal to do with the defective rate. If the scope survived something like 100 shots. Then it seemed like it lasted forever. I believe Nikon got a very good rating.

I am sure scope mfg. number 1 concern is recoil. Supposedly air gun scopes are built for forward recoil.

Lon

 

[Ontario Hunter]

For several years I dealt with occasional flyers from my Springfield. It was late WWII with the hurry-up production 2-land barrel. After discovering a corroded section about a two thirds up the barrel from receiver, I managed to find another 4-land barrel with excellent bore. Fnally got it installed a few days before leaving on my second safari in 2021. The first morning red hartbeest was on the menu while owner was locating the buffalo. We stopped at the range and first shot was just high of the bull at a hundred. We're good to go. Five shots later the hartbeest was down. It was not pretty. Both of us were mystified. "Pat, you can shoot better than that. Something's wrong." Back to the range before lunch and that gun was all over the paper. Crap. I switched to 375 for afternoon buffalo hunt. That night I couldn't sleep fretting about the mess I'd made of the hartbeest hunt. I turned on the lights and pulled the Sprinfield from its locked cabinet. Rings are tight. Then as I set the butt on the floor grasping the barrel in hand, something didn't feel right. I grabbed the forearm with my other hand and sure enough the barrel was wiggling in the stock. The fresh bedding hadn't fully cured. I rented a rifle the rest of the trip.

 

[Michael70]

A very long time ago I subscribed to a magazine that dealt with .50cal Browning they did a long test of scopes on .50 cal.

As I best remember several scopes were defective straight out of the box. Price did not seem to have a great deal to do with the defective rate. If the scope survived something like 100 shots. Then it seemed like it lasted forever. I believe Nikon got a very good rating.

I am sure scope mfg. number 1 concern is recoil. Supposedly air gun scopes are built for forward recoil.

Lon

This has crossed my mind also, the curious thing was that the variance (movement in POA) was only vertical, the horizontal plane was perfect.

The abuse encountered on the gunrack at the front of the quad is far more than in the truck or held in the hand on a buggy (UTV). Previously rifles were held in the hand while travelling, it has only been with the recent acquisition of my new quad that I am using the gun rack.

Most of my hunting was with knife (using dogs) for pigs and rifles (in a 4wd truck) on sambar in the Victorian High Country. It hasn't really been an issue that I have encountered before.

My old quad was only used to chase pigs (knife) and geese (shotgun), therefore again wasn't a problem.

 

[Michael70]

For several years I dealt with occasional flyers from my Springfield. It was late WWII with the hurry-up production 2-land barrel. After discovering a corroded section about a two thirds up the barrel from receiver, I managed to find another 4-land barrel with excellent bore. Fnally got it installed a few days before leaving on my second safari in 2021. The first morning red hartbeest was on the menu while owner was locating the buffalo. We stopped at the range and first shot was just high of the bull at a hundred. We're good to go. Five shots later the hartbeest was down. It was not pretty. Both of us were mystified. "Pat, you can shoot better than that. Something's wrong." Back to the range before lunch and that gun was all over the paper. Crap. I switched to 375 for afternoon buffalo hunt. That night I couldn't sleep fretting about the mess I'd made of the hartbeest hunt. I turned on the lights and pulled the Sprinfield from its locked cabinet. Rings are tight. Then as I set the butt on the floor grasping the barrel in hand, something didn't feel right. I grabbed the forearm with my other hand and sure enough the barrel was wiggling in the stock. The fresh bedding hadn't fully cured. I rented a rifle the rest of the trip.

It's experience like this that we all can learn from. Thank you.

 

[CBH Australia]

Loose action screws and even a broken trigger guard affecting to screw torque have caused me trouble on 2 seperate rifles. Not something I thought of until it was identified.
Learning everyday. Hopefully it is something small causing this.

 

[DG870]

I just picked up a 300 Winchester. It came with Leupold rings so mounted a Leopold 3-9x scope and sighted it in, Groups seemed to string vertically, shooter error? Loaded more ammo and went back the next week, same thing except kept shooting higher. I also shot a 30-06 to test my shooting! It shot fine? Looked at the 300 and noticed the scope was sliding in the rings. Took the scope off, lapped the rings and remounted the scope. Problem solved! It shoots fine now. That could be the reason for vertical error only. Just an idea.

 

[Altitude sickness]

Meopta scopes a well made with great glass. I’ve got one on a 50BMG that knock on wood hasn’t been knocked off zero.

Maybe put some shock absorbing foam on your rifle rack

 

[Michael70]

The gun groups at the range, although I have only a small sample size after mounting the Meopta. I guess the real test will be to take it hunting, mount it on the rack as I would normally and see if there is any movement the next time I visit the range.

I will check the screws, mounts and action the next time I get it out of the safe. There is a planned fishing trip this weekend so it may go for a hunt next week to see. That said the grass is very high and the rain hasn’t quite finished for the Wet so weather permitting I suppose.

Thank you all for your suggestions

 

[gillettehunter]

If it is ever put into or out of a tight gun case..... I missed a huge mule deer on a horseback hunt. The scabbard moved the elevation turret putting the in and out of it. Does your scope have capped turrets?
Shouldn't move from being on a quad. If it does then send it in for repair.
Bruce

 

[Safari Dave]

I recommend Garand Thumb's test...

 

[IvW]

This has crossed my mind also, the curious thing was that the variance (movement in POA) was only vertical, the horizontal plane was perfect.

The abuse encountered on the gunrack at the front of the quad is far more than in the truck or held in the hand on a buggy (UTV). Previously rifles were held in the hand while travelling, it has only been with the recent acquisition of my new quad that I am using the gun rack.

Most of my hunting was with knife (using dogs) for pigs and rifles (in a 4wd truck) on sambar in the Victorian High Country. It hasn't really been an issue that I have encountered before.

My old quad was only used to chase pigs (knife) and geese (shotgun), therefore again wasn't a problem.

Can you not rather sling the rifle across your back while driving the quad? This should resolve the bumping issue.....

 

[JimP]

I have a Ruger 77 in 7mm Rem mag that has traveled more miles than I want to think on a quad rifle holder attached to the handle bars and it has never lost its zero. I've had a trigger problem because of it but not with the Leopold VX II scope

 

[TucsonFX4]

There will likely be a wide variety of opinions related to this. At a minimum, I think it shows that the majority of scope brands are susceptible to loosing zero from impacts/jarring. I’m not saying this is a brand-wide problem, just that individual scopes may not hold zero as they should.

The good companies will readily take care of a scope that can’t hold zero, so after checking the rifle for issues, check the scope. If it can’t hold zero after transport or roughing around with it, contact the manufacturer and they ought to make it right.

 

[Michael70]

Can you not rather sling the rifle across your back while driving the quad? This should resolve the bumping issue.....

That's probably the solution that will eventuate. The quad is a two-seater and sometimes I have a person behind me so chose the gun rack option. Also, while in the rack it usually sits inside a soft gun case to further protect it from the elements, but this may have to go.

Just surprised that it lost its zero so easily when I am sure that others have used scoped rifles on quads etc. without issue. I will take it out one more time and place it in the rack and then test the zero once more. If it moves it is coming off and being returned, because no matter how clear the glass, if it does not hold zero it is useless.

I think with modern scopes and the populist movement towards light weight everything, the fundamental quality of reliability has been compromised. This is ironic though as I chose the Meopta because of its solid construction along with its excellent glass.

 

[Michael70]

There will likely be a wide variety of opinions related to this. At a minimum, I think it shows that the majority of scope brands are susceptible to loosing zero from impacts/jarring. I’m not saying this is a brand-wide problem, just that individual scopes may not hold zero as they should.

The good companies will readily take care of a scope that can’t hold zero, so after checking the rifle for issues, check the scope. If it can’t hold zero after transport or roughing around with it, contact the manufacturer and they ought to make it right.

Good advice.....maybe modern scopes are not for me.

Shooting irons may be the go.

 

[Randy Bo]

Can you not rather sling the rifle across your back while driving the quad? This should resolve the bumping issue.....

This would be my suggestion. Here in SE KY most guys use atvs, and most sling their rifles and mount their shotguns. For shots under 100 yards a good fixed power scope (with fewer internal moving parts) may prove more durable.

 

[Michael70]

This would be my suggestion. Here in SE KY most guys use atvs, and most sling their rifles and mount their shotguns. For shots under 100 yards a good fixed power scope (with fewer internal moving parts) may prove more durable.

This looks like the take-away lesson for me. Sling the rifle, mount the shotgun and move on.

The crazy thing is that when I bought the rifle it had a (very) old Weaver K3-1, which held perfect zero. That was pre quad days and I was holding the rifle in the hand riding in a UTV so not a direct comparison......still have the scope though

I actually like the scope like mentioned before it is a 30mm tube, crystal clear glass and a red dot if required. Variable from 1 to 6 power although it usually lives on 1-3 at max. I know it sounds like a trivial issue but confidence in gear is important for me and if I can use an opportunity to learn from others, I am always grateful.

Thanks.