Good Gun Alert

rookhawk

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are you broke? Want to look rich?

here’s a “ruined” pre-64 winchester that had a barrel swap from 300HH to 458 win mag.

not mine, but $900 is a solid value. If you want a 458, you’ll do no better for less than $4000.


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Red Leg

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$4K? I like these old rifles but let's not get too carried away. :giggle: :unsure: In that heavy a caliber and with that sort of recoil, a good gunsmith needs to add some recoil support. (I think I see a hairline already beginning or repaired behind the trigger guard.) Not real expensive work, but it would need to be done correctly. While we are at it, might as well get open sights as well. That said, in this caliber, and with the bit of work noted it would indeed be a $2.5K equivalent rifle for maybe a $1,300 total investment. It would also be one I would much prefer to an out of the box CZ 550 in that caliber. I would not take it over a Kimber Caprivi.
 

Ray B

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Viewed in terms of value rather than price it has a lot of potential. However i don't have access to the site to get the full details. The stock wouldn't concern me since it is easy enough to get a McMillan or other quality synthetic stock that will work better than the original in both use and durability. I would want to know whose barrel it is and who did the smithing. dependent on those questions it could be an outstanding value, or not.
 

rookhawk

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$4K? I like these old rifles but let's not get too carried away. :giggle: :unsure: In that heavy a caliber and with that sort of recoil, a good gunsmith needs to add some recoil support. (I think I see a hairline already beginning or repaired behind the trigger guard.) Not real expensive work, but it would need to be done correctly. While we are at it, might as well get open sights as well. That said, in this caliber, and with the bit of work noted it would indeed be a $2.5K equivalent rifle for maybe a $1,300 total investment. It would also be one I would much prefer to an out of the box CZ 550 in that caliber. I would not take it over a Kimber Caprivi.

Value in light of "Best alternative Option".

What's a CRF alternative to a pre-64 458 Winchester currently available? CZ550 and some gunsmithing? I figured you'd be into a gun for $4000 that CRFs, Goes Bang, has a 3-pos safety, a decent trigger, and is chambered in 458? Not sure that the quality of an interarms would be in the same quality so tried to figure out how much is the next best option better than what is for sale in the advert. Perhaps you're right, the "next better thing" starts at $2500. YMMV.

I also did the "sum of its parts" calculation:

Bottom metal $200, Safety Shroud $200, Bolt and action $600, Stock $200. Barrel $300. If you want to build a custom 458, the minimum parts you need for the job are worth more than the gun's asking price.

Collector value:

$0
 

Ray B

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Seeing that Winchester (new) has a M70 Safari Express available for $1599 MSRP it appears that this would compare with the pre-64 rebarrel as far as use goes. But as noted in a previous thread, there is a great deal of difference between somethings price and its value.
 

Red Leg

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Value in light of "Best alternative Option".

What's a CRF alternative to a pre-64 458 Winchester currently available? CZ550 and some gunsmithing? I figured you'd be into a gun for $4000 that CRFs, Goes Bang, has a 3-pos safety, a decent trigger, and is chambered in 458? Not sure that the quality of an interarms would be in the same quality so tried to figure out how much is the next best option better than what is for sale in the advert. Perhaps you're right, the "next better thing" starts at $2500. YMMV.

I also did the "sum of its parts" calculation:

Bottom metal $200, Safety Shroud $200, Bolt and action $600, Stock $200. Barrel $300. If you want to build a custom 458, the minimum parts you need for the job are worth more than the gun's asking price.

Collector value:

$0
I get it. Just personally have never really gotten it with respect to the basic pre-64 model 70. Jack O'Connor of course championed the model 70, but only after extensive modification by someone like Al Biesen. In fact, Al built him one in .458 that sold some years ago. Doesn't look much like this rifle. But fundamentally, I am agreeing with you. It is not a $900 rifle. As I say, I would prefer it to a CZ 550. But this one is not even close to a Kimber Caprivi in .416 or .458 Lott. Both of which still can be found for around $3K - much less $4K.


But I get the worship of them. It is what drives the rare and unique ones into the stratosphere. I just have immunity. :cool: At least, thus far.
 

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WAB

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Value in light of "Best alternative Option".

What's a CRF alternative to a pre-64 458 Winchester currently available? CZ550 and some gunsmithing? I figured you'd be into a gun for $4000 that CRFs, Goes Bang, has a 3-pos safety, a decent trigger, and is chambered in 458? Not sure that the quality of an interarms would be in the same quality so tried to figure out how much is the next best option better than what is for sale in the advert. Perhaps you're right, the "next better thing" starts at $2500. YMMV.

I also did the "sum of its parts" calculation:

Bottom metal $200, Safety Shroud $200, Bolt and action $600, Stock $200. Barrel $300. If you want to build a custom 458, the minimum parts you need for the job are worth more than the gun's asking price.

Collector value:

$0

I actually think that the new M-70 CRF in .458 is an incredible deal and ready to hunt out of the box after a good once over.
 

TOBY458

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My Winchester SE in 458 and 416 are flawless. Decent wood. Feed like butter. Have second recoil lug on the barrel. CNC machined to very close tolerances. I realize the pre 64 is a sought after gun, but the new ones are simply built better than they've ever been. And for a street price of $1300.00, show me something better.
 

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Are you sure you don't want to save $400 and get a 60 year old anonymously rebarreled mystery gun with no iron sights that was hand made by American craftsmen? Come on man, it's steal. I need to call up 'ol Red Dog Guns right now and buy that rascal before it's gone!
 

Wyatt Smith

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My Winchester SE in 458 and 416 are flawless. Decent wood. Feed like butter. Have second recoil lug on the barrel. CNC machined to very close tolerances. I realize the pre 64 is a sought after gun, but the new ones are simply built better than they've ever been. And for a street price of $1300.00, show me something better.
IMO the pre 64 rifles are much better. The first reason being MIM parts. I had a safety lever break on my Portuguese 375.
The safari express rifles have a shorter firing pin spring than the new haven rifles do,also the spring retainer is a small U shaped washer, not the half turn lug style (Pre 64 only) like a Mauser.
The cocking piece on the FN rifles have fine V cut threads like a bolt. The New Haven rifles have very course, square shouldered threads.
I do like the stocks on the safari express rifles, with their cross bolts, and two lugs. The one piece bottom metal is also a nice touch.
I have a Pre 64 30-06 and the only reason I have post 64 New Haven CRF 375, is because the Pre 64 375 are too expensive for me.
 

postoak

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You can buy a NIB Model 70 for $1310 off gunbroker. The pre-64 does nothing for me but some guys prefer them, and it's almost $400 cheaper.
 

K E Johnson

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Pay your money and take your choice. I prefer to not have investment cast receivers and MIM parts, but I I have at this point never thrown money down on a Pre 1964 model 70. I am not saying I won’t at some point. I hold model 70’s with esteem.
I do own a New Haven SS Classic in both 375 H&H and 300 Win mag. I have probably taken more game with the 375 than any gun I have ever owned at this point. I accept the MIM parts.
I would love a 300 H&H but probably not an original Pre 64 as it would not suit my needs as a hunting rifle as I see them. I am not afraid of modifying a gun to suit me.
I also would like a bespoke rifle. If I ever do buy one, I probably won’t be the first owner as even if I can afford it, justifying the expense is a big leap.
 

TOBY458

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No Winchester 70 has ever used a cast receiver. All are forged. New and old. The new rifles also use spring steel on the extractors, unlike the extractors that were being used on the later New Haven guns. Machine work on the newer guns is miles ahead of the later New Haven guns. Not even a comparison. Bolt faces are smooth, with no machine marks. Stocks are actually glass bedded, and not hot glue bedded like the older guns. And Don't get me wrong, they all are excellent guns. But technology has brought about changes for the better in the way of far more precision machining techniques that were never achievable in the past. I've owned both old and new, and from what I've seen the new is just a better rifle.
 

CoElkHunter

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No Winchester 70 has ever used a cast receiver. All are forged. New and old. The new rifles also use spring steel on the extractors, unlike the extractors that were being used on the later New Haven guns. Machine work on the newer guns is miles ahead of the later New Haven guns. Not even a comparison. Bolt faces are smooth, with no machine marks. Stocks are actually glass bedded, and not hot glue bedded like the older guns. And Don't get me wrong, they all are excellent guns. But technology has brought about changes for the better in the way of far more precision machining techniques that were never achievable in the past. I've owned both old and new, and from what I've seen the new is just a better rifle.
Unfortunately, you are absolutely correct. I too have a deep nostalgia for the older firearms. But, when looking at machining tolerances, there is no comparison between the old and the new. I was looking an older Smith 29 which was somewhat loose in the cylinder and "rougher". Then I looked at a newer Smith 29. The newer one was tight and smooth. Both had been shot quite a bit. That's why we now have the newer push feed Savages and Mossbergs that shoot sub MOA for a fraction of the cost (with inflation) I paid for my first mid '70s Winchester M70, which was not one of Winchester's finest. It's like new auto engines. The machining is so precise and tight, they use 0W-20 oil instead of 5W or 10W-30 oil?
With all that said, I'll probably still look for the older guns at fair prices cause the nostalgia attached to those guns is implanted in my feeble brain.
 

K E Johnson

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Just to be clear, I never meant to insinuate that any model 70 had investment cast receiver. That is one of the reasons I prefer them over some other rifles.
I would prefer they did have MIM parts either. I will stand corrected if I am wrong, but Pre 1964 70s did not.
As far as tolerances go, I have done enough manual and CNC machine work to appreciate what CNC can do. It is a wonderful process with the right programming.
A few tool marks, and the difference in tolerances between current and Pre 1964 70s is not going to cost anyone a game animal. No doubt the current production is a smoother rifle.
I can appreciate what can be done with modern machine tools. I can also appreciate what was done with out them.
My solution may be to sell every rifle I have and try to get a Satterlee 375 H&H.

Not a direct comparison by any stretch, but I also appreciate English doubles and antique tractors. You haven’t really lived until you have hand started an 1884 cubic inch two cylinder tractor With a 1.9 mph top speed. I also enjoy my current production that has 25 mph road speed.
 

Wyatt Smith

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You haven’t really lived until you have hand started an 1884 cubic inch two cylinder tractor With a 1.9 mph top speed. I also enjoy my current production that has 25 mph road speed.
There’s nothing like plowing at night with the old (1972) 9600 Ford, when the exhaust manifold glows red, and there’s a six inch flame coming out of the stack.
Everybody should do it at least once.
 
 

 

 

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