First Dangerous Game Rifle - Struggling to decide

[Adam S]

My vote: 330gr African Swallow flying at 36fps...

 

[Nevada Mike]

Which one in your opinion will penetrate the best?

The heaviest projectile. Although I don't know offhand what the 12.5g shot pellet equates to in official shot size designation. Is this actually what we call buckshot?

 

[IvW]

The heaviest projectile. Although I don't know offhand what the 12.5g shot pellet equates to in official shot size designation. Is this actually what we call buckshot?

The smallest buckshot which has 44 pellets per load in a 12ga 2 3/4

 

[IvW]

US equivelant is probably T or TTT...commonly used for large geese and small duiker in Africa

 

[mark-hunter]

Who has ever shot a shotgun with pellets on 100 meters live target? no sane person.
And 22lr, yes. Not uncommon, at least on rabbit.
Answer is, 22lr penetrates better at 100 meters.
No math required.
( to make it clear, none of above is to be reccomended)

Math?
With similar velocity, heaviest projectile will penetrate better

But it has to be said - pellets in shotgun kill in different way, when compared to bullet from rifle.
In theory, shotgun pellets do not need to penetrate to vital organ, they kill by creating multiple simoultaneous shock on nerve ends.
Bullets fired from rifle kill due to damage to vital organs, haemoraging, destruction of CNS, or in some cases due to causing hydrodinamic shok.

From the field:
I have seen roe buck being shot through the ribs with 22lr (runaway, later shot again with 22), with pass throug on a rib shot.
I have seen a roe buck shot with buckshot, broad side, (diam 6.2 mm, 27 pellets load, 12 GA), no pass through, DRT. (both practises not reccomended)

So, shot, or bullet, and effect on game, in reality to compare will be inconclusive. Its not apples and apples.

I am still a bit surprised, on original question.

 

[IvW]

Who has ever shot a shotgun with pellets on 100 meters live target? no sane person.
And 22lr, yes. Not uncommon, at least on rabbit.
Answer is, 22lr penetrates better at 100 meters.
No math required.
( to make it clear, none of above is to be reccomended)

Math?
With similar velocity, heaviest projectile will penetrate better

But it has to be said - pellets in shotgun kill in different way, when compared to bullet from rifle.
In theory, shotgun pellets do not need to penetrate to vital organ, they kill by creating multiple simoultaneous shock on nerve ends.
Bullets fired from rifle kill due to damage to vital organs, haemoraging, destruction of CNS, or in some cases due to causing hydrodinamic shok.

From the field:
I have seen roe buck being shot through the ribs with 22lr (runaway, later shot again with 22), with pass throug on a rib shot.
I have seen a roe buck shot with buckshot, broad side, (diam 6.2 mm, 27 pellets load, 12 GA), no pass through, DRT. (both practises not reccomended)

So, shot, or bullet, and effect on game, in reality to compare will be inconclusive. Its not apples and apples.

I am still a bit surprised, on original question.

So which one of the three would you use on a wounded leopard follow up then, lets say 10m, which is 33 feet....only one of these three....

 

[Aaron N]

So which one of the three would you use on a wounded leopard follow up then, lets say 10m, which is 33 feet....only one of these three....

As we all know from you, other professionals, that a 12ga is the best for following up a leopard because more holes are better than one hole. Leopards are not a heavily built or thick skinned animal.

But in your original question, you asked about a single pellet, but now it seems you’re alluding to an entire shell full of shot....

 

[sureshot375]

The obvious answer is a bolt action 375. Everyone needs a 375. You can hunt anything it the world with it. I’ve killed Steinbok with a .375 and shot a charging buff in the face at 10 feet with a 375. It’s not too much for North American species like elk, bear, and moose. The recoil is very manageable.

You can add something bigger later if you need to, but it will compliment rather than replace the 375.

 

[IvW]

As we all know from you, other professionals, that a 12ga is the best for following up a leopard because more holes are better than one hole. Leopards are not a heavily built or thick skinned animal.

But in your original question, you asked about a single pellet, but now it seems you’re alluding to an entire shell full of shot....

How do the pellets penetrate? At 33 feet individually not so?

 

[Thumper Mcgee]

Which one in your opinion will penetrate the best?

22

 

[TTundra]

Promising thread circling the bowl now...

@Professor Mawla excellent posts, very detailed, and greatly appreciated information.

 

[Professor Mawla]

Promising thread circling the bowl now...

@Professor Mawla excellent posts, very detailed, and greatly appreciated information.

@TTundra
I am honored that you have enjoyed my posts so much .

 

[Nevada Mike]

So which one of the three would you use on a wounded leopard follow up then, lets say 10m, which is 33 feet....only one of these three....

NEW QUESTION then. I think we are switching from 'penetration' to 'overall damage'. I would prefer my 12 ga. SxS, or a Browning Auto-5. With 00 buckshot.

 

[Tanks]

So which one of the three would you use on a wounded leopard follow up then, lets say 10m, which is 33 feet....only one of these three....

.22 is still better if you have one of these.

 

[Professor Mawla]

NEW QUESTION then. I think we are switching from 'penetration' to 'overall damage'. I would prefer my 12 ga. SxS, or a Browning Auto-5. With 00 buckshot.

@Nevada Mike

That is an excellent choice . This is what I have been using on Problem Animal Control work , for following up marauding Asiatic leopards ever since 1972 .

My Laurona 12 bore side-lock ejector and Eley Alphamax LG shells . LG is what you American gentlemen refer to , as “ 000 Buckshot “ .

 

[mark-hunter]

So which one of the three would you use on a wounded leopard follow up then, lets say 10m, which is 33 feet....only one of these three....

Well, I am in different position:
Presently, preparing myself for DG hunt (buff), I am following the advice, and industry standard: 375 H&H is my choice. Looking for proper bullet for this, and taking my time to prepare.

As for this particular question, with zero personal experience on leopard, cannot comment.

 

[Viral_SIGness]

NEW QUESTION then. I think we are switching from 'penetration' to 'overall damage'. I would prefer my 12 ga. SxS, or a Browning Auto-5. With 00 buckshot.

.22 is still better if you have one of these.

May I ask, how this thread got turned into shotgun and .22 talk? The man asked about a DG rifle, not your favorite water fowl loads lol

 

[IvW]

Shot gun and .22 talk....

Lets see if what I have to say clears things up a bit.

It is very nice and exciting to read about all the old time hunters what they used did not use how many of what they shot etc. etc. One word of caution, do not believe everything you read or hear. Same goes for my comments. I comment on what I have seen myself during my time hunting. Also consider that many of the so called hunting gurus who turned to writing books as they did not make it financially are also to be taken with a extra helping of salt. I refer to John "Pondoro" Tayler, Harry Manners "Kambako", Capstick etc. If you believe everything they wrote well then I guess they achieved what they set out to do, deception.....

If you believe some of it you would never buy a 375 H&H unless you want to pay for seven dead Eland instead of one or 7 buffalo for that matter....

Harry never shot the 4th largest elephant ever recorded, even if it is recorded as such with Rowland Awards....

Long lists of hunters that are either dead or long been on retirement, hunted in a time when only certain types of ammuntion and calibers where availible. Here comes to mind especially such persons who started in Rhodesia.Most of them started off with Parks and Wildlife and then progressed to Professional hunting when Parks started to fall apart. They where issued with .458 WM for the job and that is all the where use to and they had to get the job done with them, they new exactly where to shoot what for the shot to be effective.

You will have a hard time convincing them that there are better calibers for the job. Same example can be used for Land Rovers.....that is what they had and they had to use them....no matter how many times they broke down and let them down they still like them....

Speak to more recent PH's and you will get more modern answers. Most use Land Cruisers and not Land Rovers, the ones that hunt in the sticks anyway. Most will use a 458 LOTT, 500 Jeff or 505 Gibbs in a bolt and a 470 NE, 500 NE, 577 NE or even 600 NE, just the way it is....you wanna follow the old timers of course your choice....

Speak to the likes of Tony Sanchez Ariño, by now he shot more than the following, 1.303 elephants, 2.083 buffaloes, 339 lions, 165 leopards and 127 black rhinos. He will clearly make you understand that the 458 WM is rated less effective than the 375 H&H.

Speak to Robin Hurt he will inform you that the 458 WM lacks penetration and that the 458 Lott is a much better option. He himself prefering the 500 NE by William Evans for DG.

Hugo Seia also does not like the 458 WM.

Japie Schoeman also found the 458 WM lacking and had it converted to a 458 Lott.

Geoff Broom double 375 H&H and double 500 NE and also a 450 Dakota.

Don Cowie 375 H&H he wanted a 416 Rigby but got a 458WM instead, he hardly used it rather relying on the 375 H&H, he shot the barrel out and replaced it with another..

So who is to be believed?

Now lets get back to the birdshot and 22LR talk....

I personally witnessed on my very first follow up on a wounded leopard buckshot fail. The other PH was using SG buckshot and as the leopard charged the tracker he gave it the first barrel on the way in and the second barrel at very close range almost side on. It had now effect on the leopard. I shot the leopard with a 375 H&H, it died. Inspection and skinning showed that none of the pellets had penetrated the chest cavity most sitting just under the skin or just in the muscle. This was in the neck and frontal shoulder area.

I changed to a SXS 12ga with shortened barrels after this but only use Brenneke slugs with the utmost satisfaction at very short range. They penetrate and are devestating. If I only had that combination I would use it on lion as well.

So back to small buckshot 22lr and leopards....

Two persons named above have used them on leopard. One stating that he uses AAA in particular for back up on leopard, at ranges from 10meters which is 33 feet. Now I find it very difficult to believe that this is effective or to be recommended. At 10 meters the pellets are all spread, they do not impact as a solid mass, therefore each pellet has to penetrate on its own.

Some responded to my question regarding which would penetrate better? AAA pellet or 22LR and correctly the 22LR will but nowbody indicated that they would use it for buck up on leopard? Well why not? It will out penetrate the AAA pellet by at least 3 times if not 4? A highly experienced PH suggests it is the cats whiskers when using AAA for the job.....stating that a leopard has a soft scull....

Maybe if you had the front of the barrel in the leopards mouth and then pulled the trigger, but I for one am not willing to try it. My field experience sais no buckshot only slugs same goes for bushpig.....

But what do I know, I never culled elephant with a government issue 458 WM, only with 375 H&H and 500 Jeff.

Then another highly experienced PH mentioned above, one night in camp shoots a leopard with a 22LR, his 458 WM was locked away, right between the eyes, which is the correct shot placement for the brainshot. The cat takes off and into the reeds. They fetch a shotgun loaded with buckshot SG if I recall vcorrectly and follow up. They find the leopard dead. After skinning they find that the bullet never penetrated the scull(according to him too hard to penetrate with the .22LR) but rather followed the scull staying under the skin and was recovered at the back of the head. Cat died of suspected brain hemirage due to shot.

So the ones who responded taht the 22 lR will out penetrate the AAA pellet, which is correct, however the listed professionals both have different experiences....

Below some pictures to demonstrate....

A picture of the spread of AAA buckshot at 10 meters/33yards...Clearly each pellet needs to penetrate on its own....so the mass together theory does not hold any water...

The top view of a leopard scull

The position of the brain

The two eye sockets

The parth either the pellet or the bullet has to follow to reach the brain. Bear in mind that thescull is covered in thick skin and facial muscles on a live charging cat..

So nobody will trust the penetration of a .22LR bullet to get the job done. So we can safely assume that the single pellet from a AAA shot out of a 12ga 2 3/4 cartridge will penetrate even less. Yet this is what some of the professionals use and recommend. Not me....I will stick to Brennekke slugs for the job.

Some say the scull is soft some say it is hard, find a scull and decide for yourself....brain shots on charging leopards is a matter of luck anyway as you aim at the high speed ball of the oncoming spotted mass and shoot no time to line up the brain....been there done that, more than once....but what do I know.....

Remeber another thing culling elephants, bulls, cows up to the smallest calf is entirely different than dealing with a wounded bull elephant.

Caliber choice for a visiting hunter and a Professional Hunter is vastly different....

So what is the purpose of this shotgun and 22LR talk then?

Do not believe everything you read or hear, get hands on and decide for yourself. For a visiting hunter hunting elephant the 458 WM may be perfect for the task but is it for a Professional Hunter when following up a wounded elephant in the thick jesse? I think not.....I use the 500 Jeff for this.

In the end it is a personal choice.......

 

[Professor Mawla]

Let us now assess each of these statements in a chronological order , shall we ?

“ Harry never shot the 4th largest elephant ever recorded, even if it is recorded as such with Rowland Awards.... “

Correct . Harry Manners was extremely fraudulent in several of his claims . It was Wally Johnson who actually shot that particular elephant , which Harry claims credit for . Harry also employed a .404 Jeffery quite a bit and occasionally required up to a dozen shots to take down an elephant bull . Yet , he claimed that he always used a .375 Holland & Holland Magnum to secure his ivory ; usually with just one perfect brain shot .

“ They where issued with .458 WM for the job and that is all the where use to and they had to get the job done with them, they new exactly where to shoot what for the shot to be effective. “

So you do admit that the .458 Winchester Magnum is perfectly adequate for PEOPLE WHO KNOW HOW TO SHOOT ?

“ Speak to the likes of Tony Sanchez Ariño, by now he shot more than the following, 1.303 elephants, 2.083 buffaloes, 339 lions, 165 leopards and 127 black rhinos. He will clearly make you understand that the 458 WM is rated less effective than the 375 H&H. “

Tony Sanchez Arino developed a dislike for the .458 Winchester Magnum after using it , during his time in Sudan . By his own admission , he was using ammunition where the advertised velocity was 2040 feet per second ( indicating that the actual velocity was DEFINITELY below 2000 feet per second ) . There is no evidence to suggest that he would be experiencing any difficulties , were he using ammunition with an actual velocity in the 2080 - 2100 feet per second range .

“ Speak to Robin Hurt he will inform you that the 458 WM lacks penetration and that the 458 Lott is a much better option. He himself prefering the 500 NE by William Evans for DG “ .

Yes , Robin Hurt does use a .500 Nitro Express by William Evans . But he also used .458 Winchester Magnums at least twice in his career . He began his career with a .450 Nitro Express number 2 ( a double rifle which was built by W J Jeffery ) , which he re-barreled to .458 Winchester Magnum ( due to shortage of .450 Nitro Express ammunition , at the time ) . By his own admission , he liked the rifle very much but it had an extraction issue ( which is common in double rifles which are chambered for rimless calibres ) . For which reason , he ended up selling it . He also owned a bolt action .458 Winchester Magnum and ( once again ) he never had a problem with the ballistic performance of the rifle . He simply abandoned it , because he realized that he preferred double rifles for hunting dangerous game . For the same reason , he also stopped using his .416 Remington Magnum and his .425 Westley . He never had a problem with any of these calibres . He simply preferred using double rifles in rimless calibres ( He owns a spare William Evans in .470 Nitro Express , which he permits some of his favorite clients to use ) .

“ Japie Schoeman also found the 458 WM lacking and had it converted to a 458 Lott. “

You know ; if I did not have any mutual friends with Japie Schoeman , then I almost would have actually believed you . But let us now look at some of Japie’s REAL FEELINGS about the .458 Winchester Magnum . These are some of the things which Japie said about the .458 Winchester Magnum , to a friend of mine . The gentleman requested that his name remained blurred , when I posted this on AH forums or any other form of social media .

This is Japie with his .458 Winchester Magnum .

You have a really interesting tendency to name famous proponents of the .458 Winchester Magnum ( or at least , people who do not really have anything against the calibre ) , and then label them as critics of this calibre . You attempted to do the same thing with Richard Harland , as well .

“ I personally witnessed on my very first follow up on a wounded leopard buckshot fail. The other PH was using SG buckshot and as the leopard charged the tracker he gave it the first barrel on the way in and the second barrel at very close range almost side on. It had now effect on the leopard. I shot the leopard with a 375 H&H, it died. Inspection and skinning showed that none of the pellets had penetrated the chest cavity most sitting just under the skin or just in the muscle. This was in the neck and frontal shoulder area. “

A question about African Leopards

So where do we start? Let us start with the article in question. Yes John Coleman has vast experience as a Professional hunter. The only question I have is how many actual leopard charges did he stop using AAA or SG as stated in his article....maybe one. I also have an article written by a PH...

www.africahunting.com

In the thread which I have provided a link to , you claimed that your fellow professional hunter was using SSG buckshot ( ball diameter = .27 calibre ) .
Now , you are claiming that your fellow professional hunter was using SG buckshot ( ball diameter = .33 calibre ) . Which one was it , really ? I should also like to add that just because ONE PARTICULAR MAKE of buckshot proved to be insufficient for stopping a charging leopard , does not mean that all buckshot shells are of the same quality . For example : The balls / pellets used in Remington buckshot shells and Sellier & Bellot buckshot shells , are noticeably softer than the balls / pellets which are used in Eley Alphamax buckshot shells ( formerly ) , Fiocchi and RWS buckshot shells . The latter three companies employed a proper hardening process for their balls / pellets .

“ Two persons named above have used them on leopard. One stating that he uses AAA in particular for back up on leopard, at ranges from 10meters which is 33 feet. Now I find it very difficult to believe that this is effective or to be recommended. At 10 meters the pellets are all spread, they do not impact as a solid mass, therefore each pellet has to penetrate on its own.

Some responded to my question regarding which would penetrate better? AAA pellet or 22LR and correctly the 22LR will but nowbody indicated that they would use it for buck up on leopard? Well why not? It will out penetrate the AAA pellet by at least 3 times if not 4? A highly experienced PH suggests it is the cats whiskers when using AAA for the job.....stating that a leopard has a soft scull....

Maybe if you had the front of the barrel in the leopards mouth and then pulled the trigger, but I for one am not willing to try it. My field experience sais no buckshot only slugs same goes for bushpig..... “

I suspect that you are talking about John Coleman , who often writes about using “ AAA “ shells in his 12 bore BRNO ZP-49 side-lock ejector side by side shotgun for spooring wounded leopards . There was actually a great controversy about this topic , and even @Major Khan Sir got curious about what kind of professional hunter would recommend using AAA buckshot shells for stopping charging leopards . I actually asked John this question , on behalf of the Major .

Here is his reply .

John never actually used AAA shells for spooring wounded leopards . Not the AAA that we know ( 44 balls / pellets of .20 calibre in a 2 3/4 inch shell ) . John ALWAYS used Winchester Super X 2 3/4 inch 36 gram number 4 buckshot shells ( ball diameter = .24 calibre ) , for spooring wounded leopards . He used them with successful results on exactly six wounded leopards . I actually asked him why he refers to number 4 buckshot shells , as “ AAA “ . He explained that number 4 buckshot used to be sold in Africa , as “ AAA “ during the 1950s and 1960s .

If this old Eley catalog is anything to go by , then John is definitely telling the truth .

Also this box of Remington 2 3/4 inch number 4 buckshot .

And one more thing . John does not shoot charging leopards with his shotgun from ten metres away . He shoots them from five metres .

Speaking for myself , Eley Alphamax LG shells have always done the trick for stopping charging Asiatic leopards at close range ( five metres or less being ideal ) . It makes quite a mess of their skulls , as well .

“ Do not believe everything you read or hear, get hands on and decide for yourself. “

Finally , something which we DO agree on .

 

[Forrest Halley]

Who has ever shot a shotgun with pellets on 100 meters live target? no sane person.
And 22lr, yes. Not uncommon, at least on rabbit.
Answer is, 22lr penetrates better at 100 meters.
No math required.
( to make it clear, none of above is to be reccomended)

Math?
With similar velocity, heaviest projectile will penetrate better

But it has to be said - pellets in shotgun kill in different way, when compared to bullet from rifle.
In theory, shotgun pellets do not need to penetrate to vital organ, they kill by creating multiple simoultaneous shock on nerve ends.
Bullets fired from rifle kill due to damage to vital organs, haemoraging, destruction of CNS, or in some cases due to causing hydrodinamic shok.

From the field:
I have seen roe buck being shot through the ribs with 22lr (runaway, later shot again with 22), with pass throug on a rib shot.
I have seen a roe buck shot with buckshot, broad side, (diam 6.2 mm, 27 pellets load, 12 GA), no pass through, DRT. (both practises not reccomended)

So, shot, or bullet, and effect on game, in reality to compare will be inconclusive. Its not apples and apples.

I am still a bit surprised, on original question.

Let me just stop you there for a second. I've killed whitetails deer at and beyond 100 yards with buckshot. I find that 2¾" 00 Buck or #1 Buck are the best ballistically speaking for this. I have seen one shot knockdowns on standing game and short run recoveries on running game. I find the #1 to be superior over distance, but it loses initial velocity due to a heavier shot payload. Velocities being equal I believe the #1 Buck is superior to the 00 Buck in pattern density and retained velocity down range.

This is not difficult to achieve if you put a little dedication in and learn what works and what doesn't. There is a bit of a science to it, but we that hunt in areas where rifles and slugs are not legal improvise and adapt. If you utilize the shorter shot strings you can maintain velocity and penetration at extended distances. With the advent of the flite control wad you no longer need a special was retarding choke and can again use conventional construction chokes to regulate patterns. Rifle sights are helpful at over 100 yards, but not exactly required.

I wholeheartedly agree that I am not sane because I love my .458 Lott Ruger No. 1 and feel like it's not a handicap.