First Dangerous Game Rifle - Struggling to decide

Let us now assess each of these statements in a chronological order , shall we ?

“ Harry never shot the 4th largest elephant ever recorded, even if it is recorded as such with Rowland Awards.... “

Correct . Harry Manners was extremely fraudulent in several of his claims . It was Wally Johnson who actually shot that particular elephant , which Harry claims credit for . Harry also employed a .404 Jeffery quite a bit and occasionally required up to a dozen shots to take down an elephant bull . Yet , he claimed that he always used a .375 Holland & Holland Magnum to secure his ivory ; usually with just one perfect brain shot .

“ They where issued with .458 WM for the job and that is all the where use to and they had to get the job done with them, they new exactly where to shoot what for the shot to be effective. “

So you do admit that the .458 Winchester Magnum is perfectly adequate for PEOPLE WHO KNOW HOW TO SHOOT ?

“ Speak to the likes of Tony Sanchez Ariño, by now he shot more than the following, 1.303 elephants, 2.083 buffaloes, 339 lions, 165 leopards and 127 black rhinos. He will clearly make you understand that the 458 WM is rated less effective than the 375 H&H. “

Tony Sanchez Arino developed a dislike for the .458 Winchester Magnum after using it , during his time in Sudan . By his own admission , he was using ammunition where the advertised velocity was 2040 feet per second ( indicating that the actual velocity was DEFINITELY below 2000 feet per second ) . There is no evidence to suggest that he would be experiencing any difficulties , were he using ammunition with an actual velocity in the 2080 - 2100 feet per second range .

“ Speak to Robin Hurt he will inform you that the 458 WM lacks penetration and that the 458 Lott is a much better option. He himself prefering the 500 NE by William Evans for DG “ .

Yes , Robin Hurt does use a .500 Nitro Express by William Evans . But he also used .458 Winchester Magnums at least twice in his career . He began his career with a .450 Nitro Express number 2 ( a double rifle which was built by W J Jeffery ) , which he re-barreled to .458 Winchester Magnum ( due to shortage of .450 Nitro Express ammunition , at the time ) . By his own admission , he liked the rifle very much but it had an extraction issue ( which is common in double rifles which are chambered for rimless calibres ) . For which reason , he ended up selling it . He also owned a bolt action .458 Winchester Magnum and ( once again ) he never had a problem with the ballistic performance of the rifle . He simply abandoned it , because he realized that he preferred double rifles for hunting dangerous game . For the same reason , he also stopped using his .416 Remington Magnum and his .425 Westley . He never had a problem with any of these calibres . He simply preferred using double rifles in rimless calibres ( He owns a spare William Evans in .470 Nitro Express , which he permits some of his favorite clients to use ) .

“ Japie Schoeman also found the 458 WM lacking and had it converted to a 458 Lott. “

You know ; if I did not have any mutual friends with Japie Schoeman , then I almost would have actually believed you . But let us now look at some of Japie’s REAL FEELINGS about the .458 Winchester Magnum . These are some of the things which Japie said about the .458 Winchester Magnum , to a friend of mine . The gentleman requested that his name remained blurred , when I posted this on AH forums or any other form of social media .
View attachment 387687View attachment 387686View attachment 387685
This is Japie with his .458 Winchester Magnum .
View attachment 387688

You have a really interesting tendency to name famous proponents of the .458 Winchester Magnum ( or at least , people who do not really have anything against the calibre ) , and then label them as critics of this calibre . You attempted to do the same thing with Richard Harland , as well .

“ I personally witnessed on my very first follow up on a wounded leopard buckshot fail. The other PH was using SG buckshot and as the leopard charged the tracker he gave it the first barrel on the way in and the second barrel at very close range almost side on. It had now effect on the leopard. I shot the leopard with a 375 H&H, it died. Inspection and skinning showed that none of the pellets had penetrated the chest cavity most sitting just under the skin or just in the muscle. This was in the neck and frontal shoulder area. “


In the thread which I have provided a link to , you claimed that your fellow professional hunter was using SSG buckshot ( ball diameter = .27 calibre ) .
Now , you are claiming that your fellow professional hunter was using SG buckshot ( ball diameter = .33 calibre ) . Which one was it , really ? I should also like to add that just because ONE PARTICULAR MAKE of buckshot proved to be insufficient for stopping a charging leopard , does not mean that all buckshot shells are of the same quality . For example : The balls / pellets used in Remington buckshot shells and Sellier & Bellot buckshot shells , are noticeably softer than the balls / pellets which are used in Eley Alphamax buckshot shells ( formerly ) , Fiocchi and RWS buckshot shells . The latter three companies employed a proper hardening process for their balls / pellets .

“ Two persons named above have used them on leopard. One stating that he uses AAA in particular for back up on leopard, at ranges from 10meters which is 33 feet. Now I find it very difficult to believe that this is effective or to be recommended. At 10 meters the pellets are all spread, they do not impact as a solid mass, therefore each pellet has to penetrate on its own.

Some responded to my question regarding which would penetrate better? AAA pellet or 22LR and correctly the 22LR will but nowbody indicated that they would use it for buck up on leopard? Well why not? It will out penetrate the AAA pellet by at least 3 times if not 4? A highly experienced PH suggests it is the cats whiskers when using AAA for the job.....stating that a leopard has a soft scull....

Maybe if you had the front of the barrel in the leopards mouth and then pulled the trigger, but I for one am not willing to try it. My field experience sais no buckshot only slugs same goes for bushpig..... “

I suspect that you are talking about John Coleman , who often writes about using “ AAA “ shells in his 12 bore BRNO ZP-49 side-lock ejector side by side shotgun for spooring wounded leopards . There was actually a great controversy about this topic , and even @Major Khan Sir got curious about what kind of professional hunter would recommend using AAA buckshot shells for stopping charging leopards . I actually asked John this question , on behalf of the Major .

Here is his reply .
View attachment 387698View attachment 387699

John never actually used AAA shells for spooring wounded leopards . Not the AAA that we know ( 44 balls / pellets of .20 calibre in a 2 3/4 inch shell ) . John ALWAYS used Winchester Super X 2 3/4 inch 36 gram number 4 buckshot shells ( ball diameter = .24 calibre ) , for spooring wounded leopards . He used them with successful results on exactly six wounded leopards . I actually asked him why he refers to number 4 buckshot shells , as “ AAA “ . He explained that number 4 buckshot used to be sold in Africa , as “ AAA “ during the 1950s and 1960s .

If this old Eley catalog is anything to go by , then John is definitely telling the truth .
View attachment 387708

Also this box of Remington 2 3/4 inch number 4 buckshot .
View attachment 387707

And one more thing . John does not shoot charging leopards with his shotgun from ten metres away . He shoots them from five metres .

Speaking for myself , Eley Alphamax LG shells have always done the trick for stopping charging Asiatic leopards at close range ( five metres or less being ideal ) . It makes quite a mess of their skulls , as well .
View attachment 387709

“ Do not believe everything you read or hear, get hands on and decide for yourself. “

Finally , something which we DO agree on .
So I guess Japie lied when he was interviewed by African Outfitter where he staed this and somebody got confused between AAA and nr. 4 buckshot, big differance between the two, not that it makes any differance for wounded leopard.....

Be that as it may you seem seem to know more about everything than anyone else...analyse as much as you want, you seem to be the expert on that...

Each can use what they like, I will stick to what I have used and what I know works and that has worked for me.

I still try to figure out how you spot tigers at 150 meters in mangrove forest in the middle of the night, in our mangroves you could battle to see 30 meters in day time if you lucky and how you drop elephants with shot placement 8-12 inches below the brain....with a 458 WM..

Anyway sounds like I need to get to the gunshop and get rid of my 500 Jeff and buy a 458 WM.....cheers
 
So I guess Japie lied when he was interviewed by African Outfitter where he staed this and somebody got confused between AAA and nr. 4 buckshot, big differance between the two, not that it makes any differance for wounded leopard.....

Be that as it may you seem seem to know more about everything than anyone else...analyse as much as you want, you seem to be the expert on that...

Each can use what they like, I will stick to what I have used and what I know works and that has worked for me.

I still try to figure out how you spot tigers at 150 meters in mangrove forest in the middle of the night, in our mangroves you could battle to see 30 meters in day time if you lucky and how you drop elephants with shot placement 8-12 inches below the brain....with a 458 WM..

Anyway sounds like I need to get to the gunshop and get rid of my 500 Jeff and buy a 458 WM.....cheers

Last time I checked , I am not the one who goes out of his way to belittle a rifle calibre and make it look inherently useless . Or attempt to discredit people , who have reported success with it .

Let us make the “ figuring out “ a little easier :

1 ) Literally ANYONE who actually hunts ( or has hunted ) Royal Bengal tigers in the Sundarbans will know that Royal Bengal tigers normally rest in open terrain after sun down . Especially after feeding , or mating . And they spend good portions of the night roaring and calling ( allowing an experienced hunter with the aid of local guides to easily pin point their general direction ) . There is a very good book authored by Tahawar Ali Khan in 1961 ( named “ Man Eaters Of The Sundarbans “ ) , which highlights this phenomenon . It is available for sale , on quite a few internet websites . After sundown , you may also hunt a Royal Bengal tiger from a boat ( which is traveling through one of the thousands narrow canals of the Sundarbans ) , if one ( or even two ) is found in open terrain ( and you possess a rifle with a good quality telescopic sight and a flat trajectory) . And they invariably are , especially after feeding or mating .
2 ) I’m not sure where you get the idea that ANYBODY managed to brain shoot an elephant by hitting it below the brain . Probably you are thinking about a chart which I had downloaded from the internet , to act as a sample on one of my articles ( and openly admitted doing so ) . Just like you frequently use pictures or information frequently copy pasted from the internet , to try and make a point .

Cheers , Indeed .
 
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Why would you use a downloaded chart if you have actually shot so many elephant and know where the brain is or rather should know where the brain is?

Assumptions, assumptions....

Well I honestly have better things to do.
 
Why would you use a downloaded chart if you have actually shot so many elephant and know where the brain is or rather should know where the brain is?

Assumptions, assumptions....

Well I honestly have better things to do.
Not everyone has the time ( or skill ) to use computer software to create a brand new diagram about the interior of an animal’s skull . Especially when so many charts are available on the internet , to use . And for an article , which you are writing for free .

Just like how you claim to use Rhino bullets for dangerous game hunting , yet only use the photographs taken from Rhino’s website .

Indeed , any educated person will think twice before believing that using a .458 Winchester Magnum is guaranteed to get the hunter mangled / gored by dangerous game . Why waste my time arguing about what has already been proven .
 
I am buying a 577 Tyrannosaurus just because of this thread...

Just kidding, I am getting a CZ550 in 416 Rigby. I need a tinker toy, and I don’t like working on motorcycles or cars.
 
I am buying a 577 Tyrannosaurus just because of this thread...

Just kidding, I am getting a CZ550 in 416 Rigby. I need a tinker toy, and I don’t like working on motorcycles or cars.
@BourbonTrail
An excellent choice . The CZ Model 550 has only very recently been discontinued , and I expect them to become quite expensive in the coming years .
 
Would be interesting having a certain two gentlemen in this thread in the same DG hunting camp. Dont think the 458 or the 500 would even make it out of their gun cases:E Hmmm::A Yell:
 
A quick aside from the turmoil concerning the .458WM and being as some are mentioning the CZ's I was somehow reminded of an incident that happened to me with a Bruno 602. I have owned a CZ550 in 9.3x62, which I have since given to my eldest son, and I still own a CZ550 in .416 Rigby.

During my 2nd safari to Namibia I brought my M70 in .375H&H. Somehow the stock was broken during our air travel. My PH was kind enough to loan me his Bruno 602 in .375H&H. As we were driving through his cattle farm we came across several warthogs. He stopped the Toyota and said to shoot one. They were only 10+/- yards away. I brought the rifle to my shoulder, aimed, pushed the safety forward and pressed the trigger. Nothing, pressed the trigger again and again nothing. Meanwhile the PH was yelling shoot, shoot and I yelling back your f@!kin gun doesn't work.

Well as most of you probably know, I didn't at the time, that the safety's on the Bruno 602 and the CZ550 are opposite from one another. The CZ550 you push the safety forward to fire. The Bruno 602 you pull the safety rearward to fire. Lesson learned.

My sons both succeeded in getting their warthogs. One with his CZ 9.3x62 and the other with his 8x57.

Hope this gives a little comic relief ;)
 
Would be interesting having a certain two gentlemen in this thread in the same DG hunting camp. Dont think the 458 or the 500 would even make it out of their gun cases:E Hmmm::A Yell:
Either that or they'd burn up a thousand dollars in ammo with testing and evaluation.
 
hahaha this thread is out of control!
To the OP 375, 416, 450, 458, 470, 500 whatever it may be - Buy a decent rifle, use a decent bullet and learn how to shoot it properly.
Personally I own a 375H&H, 458 Lott and 500 Jeffery and love all them and I'm confident in the ability of all of them. 458 Lott being my favourite mind you I don't own a 416 but that may change one day.
 
Ruger No1 Tropical in 375H&H. Beautiful, iconic, never fails. Single shot? Yes! So you practice and get good, no sweat. Only a double can beat that imho.
Well I did say only a double could beat that, and how about a Heym 98B in 375 Flanged Magnum, with a red dot sight or scope mount if you prefer. Perfectly capable for buff with the added benefit of not weighing a ton to carry around. Also, easy to get on point and aim very accurately with confidence. Also perfectly capable for any PG too, and accurate. And if an ellie tries to spoil your fun, chamber two 350 grain solids and you have a very capable two shot punch. Heym, with that Greener bolt can handle it all, probably the strongest action around.
 
Well I did say only a double could beat that, and how about a Heym 98B in 375 Flanged Magnum, with a red dot sight or scope mount if you prefer. Perfectly capable for buff with the added benefit of not weighing a ton to carry around. Also, easy to get on point and aim very accurately with confidence. Also perfectly capable for any PG too, and accurate. And if an ellie tries to spoil your fun, chamber two 350 grain solids and you have a very capable two shot punch. Heym, with that Greener bolt can handle it all, probably the strongest action around.
89b. This dyslexia is a buggar, sorry for that.
 
@Kevin Peacocke,

Either way they are currently outside my operating budget, but I am enamored with double rifles. I think a sxs shotgun is first on my double list though (need a cheap way to practice those triggers) ;)
 

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