Deer Hunting with .223??

Yeah, but the 30-30 will blow a hole the size of your fist through the first animal and kill the one standing behind it.
 
Right! And the 223 will NOT take out both the heart & lungs. Can do one or other marginally, but not both. Plus, after 100 yards, loses significant Kinetic Energy. BTW, I own 3 of them.... love them all obviously. I have killed deer with them. I just do not recommend at all!
 
Right! And the 223 will NOT take out both the heart & lungs. Can do one or other marginally, but not both. Plus, after 100 yards, loses significant Kinetic Energy. BTW, I own 3 of them.... love them all obviously. I have killed deer with them. I just do not recommend at all!
My experience was that it took out several ribs on the way in, slushed a good portion of the left lung, blew a massive hole through the apex of the heart, and slushed a good part of the right lung, and took out a couple of ribs and left the deer, which bled out into its thoracic cavity in about 10 seconds.
 
It's a .30 caliber bullet at around 2000fps. I'm not picturing it. Do you have a picture to back this claim?

Hi Jwg223,

I've not seen two animals with one shot from the .30-30 but, I have seen a fist size exit wound on a little California buck deer, forked horn, from this cartridge / 150 grain flat nose jacketed soft.
And I personally have shot two Sierra 125 grainiers, clear through a bull caribou at approximately 150 paces.
However, the two exit wounds on the more or less broad side caribou were only about golf ball to maybe tangerine size.
My first shot caused him to stop traveling and my second one dropped him immediately, both just behind one shoulder, through the heart/lung and out the opposite rib cage.
Entrance holes were perhaps 3 inches apart and exit holes about 6 inches apart.


I had selected this light for caliber bullet, presuming it would not exit these large members of the deer family, (often found in travelling herds) but, I was proven wrong.
Fortunately, there was no other animal behind him when I fired my two rounds.
IMO, the .30-30 is under rated these days and the .223 is a bit over rated.
But it's just my opinion and I fully accept the fact that my life's experiences have possibly differed from many other people's experiences.
For instance, I have never shot or seen shot with a .223, any deer, not even one.

I do see clearly that since it seems to be more and more common to use this little cartridge for larger animals than coyotes (and sometimes even for long range target shooting) that, the .223 is better off with the latest in heavier/tougher bullets these days.
Therefore, the approximately 70 grain bullet .223 load was long over due, IMO.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.
 
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No offense taken, at all. Here is an example of the precision I demand from myself. I was sitting, shooting over a sandbag, every similar to the position I will be in from the stand, with similar stability. This is a 100 yard cold, clean bore "first shot of the day". Because that's what will count when hunting.

14344680_838499065591_6323369533183573217_n.jpg


The ammunition used, which I will use for deer this year, is the 75gr Speer LE Gold Dot loading. Typical performance in gel is 16-20 inches of penetration with 0.55-0.7" of expansion, and typically significant weight retention. The agencies using it have been very pleased with it so far. I suspect it will work well on a deer, also. Here are a few I recovered from water jugs (they go through 4 and sometimes 5 at 0-100 yards, and look very similar near point blank and at 100).

12250060_782362344031_7753980492308497177_n.jpg


Here is a picture of the rifle:

244pt3t.jpg

Well - you ought to be able to put down one hell of a base of fire should he charge. Or is it that you are deer hunting in the midst of a battlefield? Guess I wore those to work too much.
 
Hi Jwg223,

I've not seen two animals with one shot from the .30-30 but, I have seen a fist size exit wound on a little California buck deer, forked horn, from this cartridge / 150 grain flat nose jacketed soft.
And I personally have shot two Sierra 125 grainiers, clear through a bull caribou at approximately 150 paces.
However, the two exit wounds on the more or less broad side caribou were only about golf ball to maybe tangerine size.
My first shot caused him to stop traveling and my second one dropped him immediately, both just behind one shoulder, through the heart/lung and out the opposite rib cage.
Entrance holes were perhaps 3 inches apart and exit holes about 6 inches apart.


I had selected this light for caliber bullet, presuming it would not exit these large members of the deer family, (often found in travelling herds) but, I was proven wrong.
Fortunately, there was no other animal behind him when I fired my two rounds.
IMO, the .30-30 is under rated these days and the .223 is a bit over rated.
But it's just my opinion and I fully accept the fact that my life's experiences have possibly differed from many other people's experiences.
For instance, I have never shot or seen shot with a .223, any deer, not even one.

I do see clearly that since it seems to be more and more common to use this little cartridge for larger animals than coyotes (and sometimes even for long range target shooting) that, the .223 is better off with the latest in heavier/tougher bullets these days.
Therefore, the approximately 70 grain bullet .223 load was long over due, IMO.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

If my history is correct weren't a whole whack of buffalo taken with a slow 30 cal bullet long before the 223 was a gleam in Remington's eye?
 
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If my history is correct weren't a whole whack of buffalo taken with a slow 30 cal bullet long before the 223 was a gleam in Remington's eye?

Hi lqc,

I do not know the example you refer to.
But I have hunted with a South African (Hannes Swanepole) who had been a Kruger Park Game Warden.
He told me had culled many Buffaloes over the years by raining them with a 220 grain .30-06 bullet.

It is interesting to note that today as a PH, his back up rifle for guiding clients on dangerous game, including buffalo, is a .458 3" Express (ballistic twin of the .458 Lott).

I have noticed among the PHs I have spoken with about ballistics for hunting that, they tend to favor "use enough gun" and also, they tend to prefer heavy for caliber, moderate velocity / not ultra-fast ballistics in general.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.
 
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When shooting to clear cut a herd to zero, I suspect there is little worry about wounding an animal. Even with deer, what is the financial loss from an animal that gets away. For this reason, there is not as much desire for insurance as there would be for say a $2,000 waterbuck. Maybe I am wrong as I am new to hunting and even newer to rifles, having only bow hunted before.

I had the same conversation with friends about how much poundage is needed to kill plains game and 60 lbs is enough, but after losing a zebra with ideal placement and having to track a blue only to have a PH kill on it, (also correctly placed shot) and needing to put another in an eland to finish him quicker and lessen his ability to run, I have opted for the bigger is better strategy when I get close to the edge of what something is capable of.

I don't want to lose the animal, don't want to spend my day tracking a wounded animal all through creation and don't want the animal to suffer any more than necessary for both ethical and practical reasons.
 
Hi lqc,

I do not know the example you refer to.
But I have hunted with a South African (Hannes Swanepole) who had been a Kruger Park Game Warden.
He told me had culled many Buffaloes over the years by raining them with a 220 grain .30-06 bullet.

It is interesting to note that today as a PH, his back up rifle for guiding clients on dangerous game, including buffalo, is a .458 3" Express (ballistic twin of the .458 Lott).

I have noticed among the PHs I have spoken with about ballistics for hunting that, they tend to favor "use enough gun" and also, they tend to prefer heavy for caliber, moderate velocity / not ultra-fast ballistics in general.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

by BRAINING them,
not "raining" them - LOL.
 
When shooting to clear cut a herd to zero, I suspect there is little worry about wounding an animal. Even with deer, what is the financial loss from an animal that gets away. For this reason, there is not as much desire for insurance as there would be for say a $2,000 waterbuck. Maybe I am wrong as I am new to hunting and even newer to rifles, having only bow hunted before.

I had the same conversation with friends about how much poundage is needed to kill plains game and 60 lbs is enough, but after losing a zebra with ideal placement and having to track a blue only to have a PH kill on it, (also correctly placed shot) and needing to put another in an eland to finish him quicker and lessen his ability to run, I have opted for the bigger is better strategy when I get close to the edge of what something is capable of.

I don't want to lose the animal, don't want to spend my day tracking a wounded animal all through creation and don't want the animal to suffer any more than necessary for both ethical and practical reasons.


Hi mrpoindexter,

When culling herds, I insist that there is in fact "worry about potential wounding" of animals in the background, from missed or pass through projectiles.

Your final thoughts of:
"don't want the animal to suffer any more than necessary" says it all.

We as the top predator on earth, coupled with the fact that we are blessed with the ability to reason (not sure about Democrats on that one), is such that we owe it to our quarry to make their end swift and sure.

Just my dos centavos,

Kind regards,
Velo Dog.
 
Hi lqc,

I do not know the example you refer to.
But I have hunted with a South African (Hannes Swanepole) who had been a Kruger Park Game Warden.
He told me had culled many Buffaloes over the years by raining them with a 220 grain .30-06 bullet.

It is interesting to note that today as a PH, his back up rifle for guiding clients on dangerous game, including buffalo, is a .458 3" Express (ballistic twin of the .458 Lott).

I have noticed among the PHs I have spoken with about ballistics for hunting that, they tend to favor "use enough gun" and also, they tend to prefer heavy for caliber, moderate velocity / not ultra-fast ballistics in general.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

American buffalo, hence the reference to the 223 being a gleem in Remington's eye
 
I have friends who have a .3030 and who also hunt with the .223. The deer they have shot travel shorter distance with the .223, so far. I do not have a .3030 to compare.
 
American buffalo, hence the reference to the 223 being a gleem in Remington's eye


Hi again lcq,

First of all, I apologize for my previous typo on your screen name.

But regarding your recent post;
"weren't a whole whack of buffalo taken with a slow .30 caliber bullet".

Regarding North American Buffalo/Bison, I do not know of especially large numbers having been shot with any .30 calibers.

My impression of "The Great Buffalo Slaughter" in N. America, is that it happened primarily during the era of large caliber black powder cartridges, such as the various .40 caliber and up ones, designed for the stout Sharps falling block and Remington rolling block, single shot actions.

However, I could be mistaken in this, since I do not claim to be a history expert.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.
 
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Hi again lcq,

First of all, I apologize for my previous typo on your screen name.

But regarding your recent post;
"weren't a whole whack of buffalo taken with a slow .30 caliber bullet".

Regarding North American Buffalo/Bison, I do not know of especially large numbers having been shot with any .30 calibers.

My impression of "The Great Buffalo Slaughter" in N. America, is that it happened primarily during the era of large caliber black powder cartridges, such as the various .40 caliber and up ones, designed for the stout Sharps falling block and Remington rolling block, single shot actions.

However, I could be mistaken in this, since I do not claim to be a history expert.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

First I don't worry about getting my screen name wrong, not very important. And you may very well be correct in that the 40 cal BP accounted for more buff that the 30-03. I was in the sciences so my historical ignorance can be excused. I always enjoy our banter Velo you are a wealth of information and entertainment as are most on this forum. Take care Brian
 

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