CBL Banned??

[dchum]

Incredibly well said!

Really? All he did was crap on wild lion hunting to try and somehow prop up CBL.

Even though the entire point should be about conservation which his post lacked.

 

[fourfive8]

I once had the enlightening experience of sharing a camp in Africa with an oligarch from Mexico. He of course had an iPad loaded with photos of all his trophies from around the world. I don’t believe legal, illegal, ethical or wildlife conservation had ever been part of his lexicon. He also had a large format photo catalog from which he chose his lion before the “hunt”. Every lion in the catalog looked like it had just visited the beauty shop with their manes all blow dried and styled. He also showed pics of his Rocky Mountain bighorn hunted in an area that hadn’t been open to hunting since regulated hunting was established in the state. He was quite proud of his trophies. The lion and the bighorn were just two examples reflecting his questionable internal compass.

 

[375Fox]

How ethical is driving around dragging meat for a scent trail, harvesting an animal solely or largely only for bait, hanging that bait from a tree and then waiting in a hide for a wild lion? Given enough time and money a wild lion will be killed.

Outfitters that place sedated CBL’s in small pastures to be harvested the day of arrival rightfully deserve to be put out of business. Outfitters that do it right per the law don’t deserve to be categorized the same regardless of how some feel about it. I just returned from a CBL trip and overall feel like it was a great experience.

Wild or CBL there are options for people wanting to take a lion. Personally, I would rather see someone engaged in lawful hunting and continuing the sport than not hunting at all. I just hope anyone saying CBL is completely unethical don't dove hunt this September over any milo or sunflowers.

I’m guessing you’ll refuse to read this because it could potentially change your perspective. As has already been stated one supports conservation and the other does not. A 500,000 acre concession may have a quota of 2 lions. The lion must be male and greater than 6 years old. It has lived wild it’s entire life. The hunts are massively expensive. However, that money protects the concession. It pays for anti-poaching. It protects other game. It allows other lesser expensive hunts such as buffalo to occur. That lion hunt disappears, the money into the concession declines, the concession and game numbers decline as poaching increases and people move in for other uses.
Your CBL harvesting event puts money into the South African economy but zero into conservation. It was commercially raised as livestock no different than cattle or pigs. It has a pedigree. It was trucked to the harvesting location. A 10k acre(?) game ranch that would be a game ranch with or without CBL lion shooting. That money then was distributed between the outfitter, landowner, and farmer to continue the cycle another 50 times that year.
So I’m very curious how hunting a wild population of doves with sustainable limits each year translates to harvesting farm raised lions?

 

[375Fox]

Incredibly well said!

I’m also curious why it’s incredibly well said? From what I’ve seen you’ve hunted 2 areas in Zimbabwe. One very marginal and one improving each year. The one that’s improving has lions on quota and funding coming in to make it better. The marginal area you couldn’t get a trophy male leopard on bait and could only take a young bull elephant. I would think the conservation value of lion and other high dollar hunts should be clear for you to see?

What bothers me most about this debate every time it occurs is all logic is thrown aside to support pro-CBL. Hunters support an image that sustainable hunting quotas and the money from them protect wildlife and wild areas. Now, with CBL, that’s thrown aside. Put and take shooting is somehow fully acceptable and a benefit to lions. I don’t change my opinions because the price is cheap. The difference in these debates 10 years ago to now is night and day because the prices came down so far.

 

[camlo]

Really? All he did was crap on wild lion hunting to try and somehow prop up CBL.

Even though the entire point should be about conservation which his post lacked.

If you think my question was crapping on wild lion hunting you are mistaken.

 

[Rare Breed]

The problem in the marginal area you correctly describe is due primarily to poaching by villagers that is still out of control in my opinion certainly on PG which are almost non existent while on the growing portion excellent anti-poaching villagers seem to understand value of animals beyond food and it is a beautiful thing that has nothing to do with CBL hunting without question the money spent in the latter go to the outfitters, villagers, government and yes conservation to your point.

 

[Rare Breed]

lol!!! Sometimes you do sound quite petty with your points

 

[camlo]

I’m guessing you’ll refuse to read this because it could potentially change your perspective. As has already been stated one supports conservation and the other does not. A 500,000 acre concession may have a quota of 2 lions. The lion must be male and greater than 6 years old. It has lived wild it’s entire life. The hunts are massively expensive. However, that money protects the concession. It pays for anti-poaching. It protects other game. It allows other lesser expensive hunts such as buffalo to occur. That lion hunt disappears, the money into the concession declines, the concession and game numbers decline as poaching increases and people move in for other uses.
Your CBL harvesting event puts money into the South African economy but zero into conservation. It was commercially raised as livestock no different than cattle or pigs. It has a pedigree. It was trucked to the harvesting location. A 10k acre(?) game ranch that would be a game ranch with or without CBL lion shooting. That money then was distributed between the outfitter, landowner, and farmer to continue the cycle another 50 times that year.
So I’m very curious how hunting a wild population of doves with sustainable limits each year translates to harvesting farm raised lions?

My post was more about ethics than conservation. Just wanted to make sure you didn’t miss that part. You dont have to change my perspective on anything. As stated perviously I don't care what or how anybody hunts as long as it is legal and the person is engaged in the outdoors. I understand the conservation aspect of wild hunts. I also understand put and take is not the same. Do not treat me like an idiot while you misinterpreted the message in my post.

 

[Rare Breed]

Also given in addition to Zim, Several hunts to SA and Moz which is how I have personal experience with CBL lion and rhino hunting

 

[Tanks]

CBL is NOT conservation. It is all about supplying the Costco of lion hunting pipeline of RSA. If one wants to hunt lion on the cheap no big deal, after all once it is mounted one's friends are not going to know the difference whether it was wild or not.

 

[Rare Breed]

Tanks I don’t think anyone is arguing CBL is conservation, I am not in any way. Today it is purely a profit enterprise to be clear, no question. I just find it interesting that @375Fox who certainly is entitled to his opinion on CBL yet he has never been on one while he speaks like he has so “he knows”. While I respect everyone’s opinion I do find it hard when someone is so vocal about something they have never done that’s all. By the way many people share his opinion including PHASA which is fine. I loved my CBL lion hunt, FACT, it certainly was not with a just released drugged lion

 

[dchum]

Tanks I don’t think anyone is arguing CBL is conservation, I am not in any way. Today it is purely a profit enterprise to be clear, no question. I just find it interesting that @375Fox who certainly is entitled to his opinion on CBL yet he has never been on one while he speaks like he has so “he knows”. While I respect everyone’s opinion I do find it hard when someone is so vocal about something they have never done that’s all. By the way many people share his opinion including PHASA which is fine. I loved my CBL lion hunt, FACT, it certainly was not with a just released drugged lion

You “don’t think anyone is arguing that CBL is conservation” ?

Did you read the thread? You liked several posts that were trying to say that very thing?

Again, you say that someone has to participate in the act of a Captive raised and released lion hunt in order to to find it despicable?

At least you admitted your hunt did not benifit conservation. And said you loved it, even though that entailed an adult lion being trailered to a high fence area and released just for you to kill it.

But hey you got your big 5 right? Mission accomplished.

Different strokes for different folks, thats for sure.

 

[375Fox]

Tanks I don’t think anyone is arguing CBL is conservation, I am not in any way. Today it is purely a profit enterprise to be clear, no question. I just find it interesting that @375Fox who certainly is entitled to his opinion on CBL yet he has never been on one while he speaks like he has so “he knows”. While I respect everyone’s opinion I do find it hard when someone is so vocal about something they have never done that’s all. By the way many people share his opinion including PHASA which is fine. I loved my CBL lion hunt, FACT, it certainly was not with a just released drugged lion

I think I’ve done a lot more research than many participating in CBL shooting just to counter these arguments. Have you visited the CBL farming operations? Have you witnessed the lions being stocked? Have you read the legal standards? The SAPA standards? The PHASA standards? You participated in the CBL shooting event. You put a lot of trust in what outfitters and PHs participating and profiting from the practice told you without any verification. You saw a small part of the picture. Regardless whether the shooting event is well choreographed or exciting. It is put and take hunting. I disagree with it. The practice is damaging to hunting long term because it is not conservation. It’s contrary to the hunting is conservation message that hunters want the public to see.

 

[375Fox]

My post was more about ethics than conservation. Just wanted to make sure you didn’t miss that part. You dont have to change my perspective on anything. As stated perviously I don't care what or how anybody hunts as long as it is legal and the person is engaged in the outdoors. I understand the conservation aspect of wild hunts. I also understand put and take is not the same. Do not treat me like an idiot while you misinterpreted the message in my post.

Then I simply have no idea what you are talking about. I find CBL shooting unethical because it is put and take and adds zero conservation value and is damaging to public image. I find wild lion hunting ethical and defensible because it adds conservation value. Still wondering how you tie dove hunting into your argument?

 

[Tanks]

You have very good arguments!

The problem is that your last sentence has no proof, it is just a belief.
Therefor, I am not convinced.
What I see in the future for African lion when and if CBL is shut down, is exact copy of the fate of Asiatic lion, which remains only in one small population in one national park in India.

it is just a matter of time, when it will come down to that.

The only way wild lions would be extinct would be if they are poached or limitless hunting. Current hunting fees pay for anti-poaching and hunting is via permits. Demand is NOT going to increase because RSA CBL hunting is stopped. The clients that are hunting wild lions are different than those hunt CBL. To be honest if folks could afford wild lions they would not be after hunting CBL. So doing away with the availability of $10K lion hunts in RSA is not going to increase demand for $100K lion hunts in the wild.

So, please explain to me how lack of CBL hunting would effect the wild lions.

 

[Huvius]

So, please explain to me how lack of CBL hunting would effect the wild lions

Many here have said that the bones are sold for some traditional Chinese medicine.
I don’t know what the demand is overall but I do know it has become a substitute for tiger bones.
Isn’t it plausible that if CBL shooting is banned that that demand would then be satisfied with poached lions and poached tigers?
You know the Chinese aren’t going to simply stop, right?
Or, maybe the lion farms remain and the animals are simply processed as any other farm animal is.
Personally, this is where I do think there is a place for CBL “hunting” and don’t really care too much where the revenue goes as long as they are operating above board.

 

[375Fox]

Many here have said that the bones are sold for some traditional Chinese medicine.
I don’t know what the demand is overall but I do know it has become a substitute for tiger bones.
Isn’t it plausible that if CBL shooting is banned that that demand would then be satisfied with poached lions and poached tigers?
You know the Chinese aren’t going to simply stop, right?
Or, maybe the lion farms remain and the animals are simply processed as any other farm animal is.
Personally, this is where I do think there is a place for CBL “hunting” and don’t really care too much where the revenue goes as long as they are operating above board.

That would be the only benefit of the CBL farming industry but I don’t think they need to sell “hunts” for this. Put and take is damaging to hunting. The farmers can put them down same as any other livestock. There has been no legal export quota on bones for years by the way but it is filling that market.

 

[Kharn]

CB'Animal' exist primarily [in my opinion, but not experience] to sustain & protect [fund] wild native flora & fauna habitats [in a short positive ultimatum generalization] through the perpetual & infinite acquisition of land/habitat leases (or where/when possible flat out & out right purchase of said land/habitat) that either hold wild animal populations or could be "reverted" for wild animal populations to deliberately prevent other "parties" interested in the land (but not the flora & fauna habitats on it) from acquiring the land and "eliminating / displacing" the flora & fauna habitats on it (aka Resource Industries etc).

 

[Rare Breed]

The only way wild lions would be extinct would be if they are poached or limitless hunting. Current hunting fees pay for anti-poaching and hunting is via permits. Demand is NOT going to increase because RSA CBL hunting is stopped. The clients that are hunting wild lions are different than those hunt CBL. To be honest if folks could afford wild lions they would not be after hunting CBL. So doing away with the availability of $10K lion hunts in RSA is not going to increase demand for $100K lion hunts in the wild.

So, please explain to me how lack of CBL hunting would effect the wild lions.

No question about it, if wild lions were much more affordable versus to just a select few there would be no demand for CBL

 

[LivingTheDream]

No question about it, if wild lions were much more affordable versus to just a select few there would be no demand for CBL

Im not so sure about that, there is a huge industry built on high fence whitetail deer "hunting", and you can pretty much hunt deer on public land in most states at a pretty low cost.