Cast Lead vs Monolithic Solids for Serious Work....................

[michael458]

A couple of posts from @David jr caught my attention a couple of weeks ago, from "What Did you Load Today" thread. Shortly thereafter I asked David if he would be interested in a separate discussion concerning the topic of Cast Lead vs Monolithic Solids for heavy duty use. I believe it is a topic worthy of its own thread, and this keeps us from cluttering up other threads with the discussion. David agreed that he would be interested, so here we are. Unfortunately it took me a couple of weeks before I had time to get to it, apologies David.

Now before we get to deep in the subject, I personally am not a Cast Bullet or lead fan, especially when it comes to use on buffalo, hippo or for sure elephant. In years past, I have some experience with this, and was not particularly pleased with the results. I am also the lead designer of our current CEB #13 Solids. We have tested, tweaked and worked with nearly every solid bullet available, and 100s that are not and never will be available. We discovered many factors that are involved with Solid Terminal Performance. The one that comes to mind in this discussion is;

#3 Construction & Material
Construction of a solid is a major part of its ability to penetrate. To deny this is foolish to say the least. Some of our solids out there, lead core, are very very weak in construction and absolutely do not have the ability to bust through heavy bone and reach their intended targets. I have seen and have in hand failures of these bullets from the field..... A shame as well, as some of these bullets are promoted as Dangerous Game Solids, and some of them flatten out like pancakes when hitting heavy dense material. Some FMJ Have steel inserts, while this solves a problem in one area, it creates problems in other areas.... Brass is harder than Copper... No surprise there, but I have busted elephant heads with both copper and brass, and never had one distort, but, these solids were of a very STRONG NOSE PROFILE as well........ So you see, combinations of different factors work together to strengthen or weaken other factors..... A good strong Nose Profile, can overcome some material deficiencies and in the case of copper solids this is extremely important.

Now, do not interpret my comments as being in any way adversarial to @David jr feelings concerning Cast Lead bullets or solids. It is not, this is a learning discussion for both myself and perhaps David as well, and perhaps some of you. While I am not a cast bullet fan for heavy work, one must keep in mind all my cast lead experience is well over 20 years ago, ancient history in our world, there may be some incredible leaps in Cast Bullet Tech that I am not aware of, and perhaps David can educate me, which I would welcome. Although David, it is going to be a chore for sure! LOL.

Now before we can proceed, I want to quote some recent posts from David to give us some bearing on our topic.

Posts By @David jr

My PH has given green light on using lead bullets on the dangers 7 for my 21 day safari in 2027
I tried every thing and the 458 win mag just could not reach 2150 fps with 600 gr or 696 gr lead bullets so I am switching to the 458 lott
Last bullet is a lead HP just for the kitty Cats should really give a big wallop 2300 / 2500 fps
with soft lead 20 to1 blend same lead mix Winchester used in the late 1800's in there ammunition
The 450 gr cutting edge solid bullet will be my test bullet for the lead bullet to keep up with .
Thinking of using wet copy paper 1 ream then a 1/4 inch plywood for 4 feet as test media
Trying to equal elephant head incase of a frontal shot is needed
Any thoughts on a media to duplicate elephant skull will be welcomed .

Yes it is a gas checked bullet powder coated and also hi pressure and high speed bullet lube no leading with this combo in 20 to 1 lead up to 2700 fps

Thanks, Coyote waker
I have shot a lot of news paper over the years and agree the nose shape plays a lot on penetration
with lighter bullets this is the reason I will be using 550 to 700 grain bullets not 400 to 500 gr bullets . Bullet mass will help carry bullet deeper than lighter jacket or mono bullets . that is why we have the 500's and 600 big bullet traveling slow just cant be beat for getting to vitals and most 500's and 600 factory ammo are round nose bullets the worst bullet shape for the job.

I wish I had news paper available .No news papers left in New Mexico around me so I have to use copy paper.
I can make up a 6' of one ream of wet copy paper and then one 1/4 inch plywood for 6 '
I will be very surprised if the CEB 450 solid makes it to the 6' mark in my made up elephant head media .
I am waiting on this bullet mold to arrive I believe it will keep up with the CEB 450 mono solid in the Lott.
I have a friend using a 458 win mag with 530 gr lead bullet load shooting wild bull cattle his load is only 1500 fps with 530 gr lead bullet and he is getting complete pass through from chest to tail on these bulls at 75 yards. these bulls are well over 2000 pounds .

I am just wanting to make sure if a bull elephant has to be taken with a frontal shot my lead bullet load will work just like the solids on the market today. Hart lung shot is very doable with lead bullet breaking elephant bone no problem getting through 2' of head bone to brain is what I have to have confidence in. Testing will tell.

And David posted a photo example of his cast bullet, which the nose profile looked very similar to a CEB #13 Solid. This was the basic jest of the posts on the "What did you Reload Today" thread.

On another thread that I have been watching, "Elephant Caliber" @David jr made a couple more posts;

I was going to take my model 70 in 458 WM on this safari .Except I will only be using lead bullets on this safari and the 458 WM just cant cut it with a heavy lead bullets . So I am switching to the 458 Lott which can handle up to 700 grain bullets. Now the 458 WM will be excellent with a 450 gr solid at 2300 fps with modern solid ammo on the market today. Reports on the 450 solid in the 458 WM. at 2300 fps will shoot completely through the elephant head . The 458 Lott is replacing the 458 WM today Finding brass for the 458 WM is starting to be difficult in the US . 458 Lott brass is all over the place.I only point this out if you will be reloading your ammo . In a pinch the 458 Lott will shoot 458 WM ammo.

Yes all modern bullets are a whole lot better than lead bullets .
Lead bullets today are very different than what was used to win the US freedom 250 years ago.
Palmer coatings, smokeless bullet lube, and foundry certified lead alloy today lead bullets can and are being shoot at 3000 fps today with moa accessory.
The 458 lott with a 700 gr lead bullet will do what a 500 double does so well.
With the modern solids today it is just to easy to shoot completely through any elephant and maybe wound another elephant behind your target elephant.
Just as some have already pointed out on this topic complete pass through on their elephants .
To me it is not hunting with the modern bullets of today to easy at close range or long range.
I have shoot a whole lot more ammo down range and shot a whole lot more north American animals than most people have .
I will be hunting Africa for the sport and enjoyment of the hunt, adventure seeing new country , new wild animals and making new friends along the way.
I will not just show up shooting my target animal and get on plain and go back home.
To me that is not what a African safari is all about that is why I will only shoot the proper lead bullets while on Safari and enjoy knowing I took my animals with something I made just like the old timers did many many years ago.
Sorry for being so long winded but you ask why lead bullet ?
Because I can is the proper answer to your question .
I am not trying to get any one feathers all ruffled up this is just me .
I wish every one on this forum to have a great Safari .
A lot of you on here have helped me on some questions I have had about my first Safari coming up in 2027
Thank all of you a great wealth of information .

I think this brings us up to date and perhaps why I think this would be a very interesting thread to discuss, and it is on one of my most favorite subjects on the planet "Bullets"............ After all, "The Bullet Does all the Heavy Lifting". In the "Elephant Caliber" thread, I was so tempted to interject that instead of Caliber, Cartridge, or Rifle, you might want to consider more "The Bullet" within each Caliber/Cartridge. I have seen great cartridges and calibers FAIL MISERABLY for the simple lack of a decent bullet! Its all about the Bullet.

 

[michael458]

Good Morning @David jr and our group.

First, lets start with my experience with Cast Bullets and the test material that has been used here for well over 20+ years.

My Primary Test medium has been the same for at least the entire 20+ years. It consists of 10 inches of wet news print, then 1.5-2 inches of catalog/magazine material. I discovered this quite by accident, my wife was getting bundles of catalogs every damn day in the mail. I decided to try and make some use of the junk, so started inserting it in my test medium. I learned that this material was more dense and a bit tougher on bullets than straight up news print. I finally settled on the mix above, which proved to be 35% tougher than straight news print alone. I have a 50 yard indoor shooting range, and designed it from the start to do terminal bullet tests, with a drain in the floor so I could keep this medium thoroughly wet. I have two boxes built, on wheels, that hold a total of 65 inches of medium. It is rare that I need more than 65 inches in any given single test, but on occasion some of the Solids will make it past that point.

It is very difficult, if not impossible to simulate animal tissue exactly. My test medium is far denser than any animal tissue, and in direct comparisons over the years I came up with a few "Rule Of Thumb" comparisons from the test medium I use, to actual animal tissue. Basics are with expanding bullets I will get on average 70% more penetration in animal tissue than the test medium. With Generation 1 and 2 Trauma Inflicting bullets such as the CEB Raptors, that raises to 100% more, or double in animal tissue than the test medium. For Solids, the formula is very different, I have found that on average I get 35% more penetration in animal tissue than the test medium. These are "Rules of Thumb" only and not absolute, there are many factors involved in the field, that cannot be duplicated in the test medium.

What I can state is that "What Happens In the Box" Will also happen in the field, bullet behavior is the same.

Now that you understand the exact medium I use, and have been using for 20++ Years, you will have a better idea of how things were determined, and I must say with consistency from test to test.

I wish I had news paper available .No news papers left in New Mexico around me so I have to use copy paper.
I can make up a 6' of one ream of wet copy paper and then one 1/4 inch plywood for 6 '

@David jr states his test medium is limited to Copy Paper only, since no newspaper is available. I understand, I am not sure where I would look for news print today if I had to find any. When we were testing heavy, I was buying it from our local paper literally by the ton. The last batch I hauled in years ago was over 4 tons of news print! I still have a decent amount, fortunately I am not testing like we used to back in the day so what I have left should last a life time now.

Copy Paper? Well, hmmm...... that seems fairly solid, and if thoroughly wet wet wet, it should give you a good idea of how a bullet is going to behave. Make sure it is WET. Animals are not dry. Even elephant heads are not dry. Also, it does not need to be extremely compact, or extremely loose either, and that is hard to judge as well. Too loose and it will not be tough enough on the bullet, too compact, and it might not give you a good idea of how the bullet will behave. You will have to judge that.

I will be very surprised if the CEB 450 solid makes it to the 6' mark in my made up elephant head media .
I am waiting on this bullet mold to arrive I believe it will keep up with the CEB 450 mono solid in the Lott.

Yeah, I concur, the 450 #13 Solid will most likely not make it 6 feet, or 72 inches in that test medium, it goes a consistent 62-64 inches in my test medium here, which is pretty tough on bullets.... and I might add, dead nuts straight the entire distance.

This is about average for similar bullets at similar velocity

These North Fork 450s did extremely well and were developed in the same time frame as the CEB #13 Nose profile............

And one of the very few 450 #13 Solids that I have recovered, this one was point of shoulder on a hippo and found in the rear opposite hind quarter...........sticking out BTW. Estimate, I didn't happen to have a tape measure to know exactly how long a hippo is?

 

[michael458]

Now with some of the how and why taken care of, lets continue...................

#3 Construction & Material
Construction of a solid is a major part of its ability to penetrate. To deny this is foolish to say the least. Some of our solids out there, lead core, are very very weak in construction and absolutely do not have the ability to bust through heavy bone and reach their intended targets. I have seen and have in hand failures of these bullets from the field..... A shame as well, as some of these bullets are promoted as Dangerous Game Solids, and some of them flatten out like pancakes when hitting heavy dense material. Some FMJ Have steel inserts, while this solves a problem in one area, it creates problems in other areas.... Brass is harder than Copper... No surprise there, but I have busted elephant heads with both copper and brass, and never had one distort, but, these solids were of a very STRONG NOSE PROFILE as well........ So you see, combinations of different factors work together to strengthen or weaken other factors..... A good strong Nose Profile, can overcome some material deficiencies and in the case of copper solids this is extremely important.


@David jr here are my concerns about cast lead, hard or soft. Way back in the day before decent bullets were available for 45/70, I was using a 420 gr Cast Performance, supposed to be very hard, has a large flat meplat, hits hard up front. But consistently what I found on any hard bone, this bullet would shear off the meplat, turning it into a pointy little bullet.............

Where no heavy bone was contacted, these bullets came out like this;

These would be just fine for "Trauma or Expanding" type bullets, but not conducive to deep straight line penetration.

And WELL UNDER what I would consider Buffalo Capable....... and even then, I gave it a try, and nearly got in trouble because of it on one buffalo.

I won't go into the details, but the bullets could have performed much better than they did. I was lucky on this one. I never used any cast again for this sort of mission.

During this outing I took an elephant as well, with Winchester M70 458 Lott and a Barnes Solid, this was well before any Flat nose solids were available, and even on this hunt I had some solids fired long ways that did not track 100% straight. But, elephant was sorted out regardless. Once the head was removed we conducted a test with the 45/70 and the 420 Cast Performance on what would have been a side brain shot. Yes, the bullet made it to the brain cavity and was found 1 inch on the other side of the brain cavity itself;

I have tested some other makes of hard cast bullets and also received similar results to the above. Some slightly better, more about the same.

Once I embarked on a Cast Bullet test for another fellow, not my own loads or bullets all his. I cannot say how hard or soft or anything else about these loads or bullets other than to show the results of a few of the better tests. All of these are 45/70 loads that this fellow sent for testing.

Any distortion of the nose will effect the straight line penetration, and depth of penetration of any bullet, and the cast bullets I have tested are just not conducive to deep and straight line penetration because of movement, flow and distortion of the nose. In our Factor #3, to be honest, I would never even considered any LEAD bullet as a contender for the heavy work required for elephant. Even so called Dangerous Game Solids don't always make the grade, and this goes right back to our #3 Factor, Material & Construction of the Solid

Side Brain shot is not extremely difficult for most bullets, frontal is a bit more so, here is a sectioned elephant skull to take a look at, I wish I had taken more photos and better detail at the time.

That skull was on display at camp, it was not one of mine. That year I shot this huge body bull and this is what I tested the cast bullet on after the head was removed.

With all that said David, I hope that Cast Bullet Tech has made great strides towards better performance in terms of "Solid Terminal Performance". Maybe better alloys, or coatings, or something that can add strength to lessen distortion.

Honestly, I am not sure you can beat the CEB 450 gr #13 Solid, but I am very pleased you chose it to compare to. I Have shot elephant with that bullet and it is excellent for that mission.

Even the small 325 gr #13 Solid is Elephant Capable.

This is a 450 #13 Solid through both shoulders, completely breaking this elephant down on both sides, and exited;

It takes a lot of bullet to do that kind of damage.

This elephant took a 450 #13 Solid from an 18 inch 458 B&M through the heart, he went 25-30 yards and was down for good. The bullet of course exited far side. Dead straight.

Lead bullets today are very different than what was used to win the US freedom 250 years ago.
Palmer coatings, smokeless bullet lube, and foundry certified lead alloy today lead bullets can and are being shoot at 3000 fps today with moa accessory.

A quote from @David jr and I hope David is correct, that Cast Bullet Tech has progressed to the point that it can handle the heavy mission that might be asked of it. Bullet Tech has indeed improved substantially, leaps and bounds over the last 15-20 years, and hopefully David has a bullet that can be successful in his endeavor. David, you are 100% spot on the money, test it first before going to the field with it, that is an excellent position to take in my opinion. I look very much forward to your input on this.

 

[coyote wacker]

Its been around 15 years ago I happen to find out about Cutting Edge Bullets reading on a web site about the testing micheal458 and colleagues were doing. Caught up reading and followed over 300 pages involving testing, not just in newspapers but animal that the bullets were designed to harvest. Did a lot of reading about them and learned a lot about bullet performance. A lot more than I did on my own with over 30 years of shooting wet newspapers.

 

[BayouRobert]

It is mind boggling the volume of thoroughly tested and beautifully documented data compiled by Michael and Sam. I can’t fathom how it was all accomplished. Their devotion to task is surely without question and greatly appreciated!

 

[LeftySixgun]

There’s a lot of work and planning when doing penetration tests. I’ve done a little bit myself with my cast HP bullets for my handguns.
I appreciate all the effort is testing and data collecting.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Following with interest
I’ve been a cast bullet shooter for years and I quite enjoy making them, but if I had to shoot something that would happily wear me as nail polish I would use a solid copper (Atomic 29) or woodleigh hydro to do so (both easily available here) , I have some hard cast 700 gn coated projectiles that I would probably use on asiatic buffalo or scrub bulls, but not much else in that size range
Gumpy

 

[LeftySixgun]

A friend of mine blended his own alloy and heat treated a cast bullet for a heavy 45colt and took a nice cape buff bull last year. He said it was a pass thru shot. I don’t remember the details about shot placement. I plan to duplicate his alloy and use it in my 475 Linebaugh for my trip.

 

[Brickman301]

Looking forward to reading this thread. I’m a big bullet caster myself, and have taken a lot of game with cast bullets. I’ve never taking dangerous game with cast, but I’m interested in the idea.

 

[LeftySixgun]

Looking forward to reading this thread. I’m a big bullet caster myself, and have taken a lot of game with cast bullets. I’ve never taking dangerous game with cast, but I’m interested in the idea.

Boy I have! It is stressful! But my 390gr cast HP out of my 475 Linebaugh did the trick! I was very surprised it was a complete pass thru. Kinda wish I found the slug though. In hindsight sight, it have been a mock charge though. Either way, I was scared!

 

[Fordy]

Gday Michael
Love your work & thanks for the time spent on this
Thankyou

Now this muppets viewpoint of your research & the biggest takeaway message from my pov ( I’m only a muppet so take this for what it is ) is a good solid needs to stay true to its form to give us consistent results of straight line penetration & where the #3 construction & material part of the 8 factors is so critical in a good solid ( also important in a trauma pill as I’ll get to those in a minute)

in this world we often hear the words of the critters dead or I’ve not seen it etc & that’s all that’s needed for some individual & even companies it’s one that I’m glad this information shows why the #3 is important ( as other factors are ) & the one that we get the same lines again & again from the dead critter brigade ( as I call them ) when a lost critter occurs like , oh placement could’ve been off , twist could’ve been off , some critters just won’t die & the list goes on from what I’ve been given multiple times by some that even though they’ve been shown just don’t get it or worse only interested in selling stuff yet sometimes they are even correct but often it’s not the case & can be seen in the ones recovered if we look past the dead critter itself as that often inhibits some individuals from understanding what actually occurred

I’ve gotten sick & tired of digging in dead critters that maybe only minutes dead to days even weeks but one pattern that remains a solid fact is this #3 is so important if one is after a consistent killing pill & I actually enjoy finding a lost critter & digging in those as then no disputes are had as placement is identified & straight line ability & type of wounding also shows what occurred & best is when the pill itself is recovered & why I love my metal detectors I also used our drone to great videos of what occurred & examine impacts ( legal here I have permits for this stuff)

Now one will always get that “one F-cken stick “ or critter ( private joke people between Michael & i lol ) yes I get that but one that if one gets a compromised #3 in anyway you WILL NOT get consistency now also let’s look @ this consistency what level does one accept & this is in 2 parts .

Highest possible ( but what’s that ? ) is my level in 2 parts

1/ as if you find a compromise @ a middle of the road scenario how the hell is it going to handle it under the harder scenario

2/ are we talking a 1 in 10 or a 1 in a 100 of a less than ideal result ( define less than ideal is also hard to get across multiple people) to a darn right out & out failure

Number 1&2 also come back to what is the baseline one is using as there individual line of acceptance for which I’ve seen a fair few walk the walk but delving deeper it’s a walk they struggle with especially when facts are examined & heaven forbid shown or seen what they said , will do or accept hmmm
( Michael I’m glad you had a high bar of standards that needed to be met or if you had of accepted a lower bar we would be way behind the level today )


The next part is on the trauma pills & overall these have even more potential weak points that will cause the less than ideal results & why one needs to be even more stringent on examining consistency as you just have more things too go potentially wrong & probably better for another day or thread as I’ve probably derailed enough lol
But a touch more left I think ha ha as it’s also why the good true solids have absolutely no peers for consistency on a pill as designed doing what it’s designed to do basis , yes it shows way less failure rate than any trauma pill any brand end of story well is it ???
Not really as now we better enter killing efficiency & that is one definitely for another day or thread but look forward to delving deeper on that subject

Sorry for kinda derailing Michael but I’m bored & need to keep my mind busy before I get on a plane

Cheers

 

[David jr]

Hello all .
Yes let's start this discussion on a modern turn in lead bullet technology .

micheal458 you are correct on the lead bullets you have shown they were made from
standard 6 % antimony , 2% tin , and 92 % lead called hard lead and did what they were supposed to do with the nose shape they had at the time .

I have owned and operated ammunition business (4W) , retail and wholesale gun business Williams gun shop and Double Barrel shooters supply in Texas .Been a commercial bullet caster for over 50 years.
I have turned over my casting company ( Hunters Supply ) to my daughter and have retired from the sporting good world . Time for my bucket list L.O.L.

Here is where we leave the standard lead in the dust .

yes I am going to use micheal458 450 solid for my test perimeters against a modern lead bullet's .

First off we start with 6 2 92 foundry certified lead no junk then we will add just a little hard lead shot
2 oz for 50 lbs of 6 2 92 why lead shot it is for the Arsenic.
You must have arsenic in the lead mix to harden the lead by heat treating the bullet.

The 6 2 92 lead mix will be 15 BHN
BHN stands for Brinell Hardness Number

With Arsenic added to the 6 2 92 mix and quenched in cold water the BHN will go from 15 to 25 BHN

With this hardness the lead will not shatter like lanotype lead with the same BHN number.
Heat treat the bullet.

Now we add powder coating or polymer coating to the bullet adds a very little to hardness but helps a lot on keeping the lead together and not up setting as much as 6 2 92 lead and this coatings helps
the bullet slide through rifling with out leading the bore at high velocity's and hi pressures .
IE you can shoot a lead bullet same speed of a the standard jacketed bullet with less powder less pressure.

Now we add the brass gas check to the base of the bullet to protect the bullet base from over
expanding.

Then we add modern smokeless bullet lube to the final bullet .

This is where I am coming from all modern technology for the lonely lead bullet .

I have been shooting wet news paper for over 45 years .

leftysixgun has pointed out the tiny little old 45LC lead bullet can and has shoot completely through a Buff recently with heat treated lead bullet.

Which brings up a John Linebaugh shooting seminar in Texas I believe it Wes in the 90's
any way John had me come and show off my lead 420 gr 500 linebaugh lead bullets at this
meeting of hand gun hunters .

The following things did happen someone pulled out a 458 WM shooting the famous 510 RN soft point factory ammo .

John ask me infant of all that was their how fare the 458 elephant bullet would penetrate ?
in wet news paper we had it stacked to 7 feet I told him it will go 24 inches he did not believe me .

so the guy shoot it at 10 feet and it went exactly 24 inches and turned sideways about the last 3 inches. YES I HAVE SHOT A LOT OF WET NEWS PAPER with a lot of different bullets over the years.

Next up at this shoot was a solid brass 500 LB shoot out of my 5 inch 500 Lb John wanted to know how far it would penetrate this was a solid brass 420 gr bullet at 1500 fps in a 5 inch hand gun .
I told I had no idea but would guess 4 feet well it did go 4 feet straight and true .
at this time solid brass bullets were just coming out to the public made on screw machines .

Then John wanted me to shoot my lead 420 gr lead bullet .
I told John you do not want me to do this but he instead in me doing it so I shot my 420 ge 500LB lead bullet at 1500 fps and it went 4foot and 1/2 inch straight and true .
John was not to happy with me showing up his big solid brass bullet he was trying to sell.

Next John wanted to add a cow knee joint 1 foot inside the wet news paper and repeat the test
I told John you do not want to do this but he insisted in doing the test .

First up the coper bullet drilled a perfect 1/2 inch hole through the bone and settled at 4 feet .

Now my little old lead bullet same set up completely distorted the bone and went 2 feet past the bone straight and true .

Yes the copper bullet did go 1 foot farther but it would hav not done a thing to the leg bone as for hurting the animal on that leg .

Here are the before and after with a 420 gr lead bullet at 1500 fps cow bone .

Now LETS TALK ABOUT TESTING MEDIA

I have been in contact with a member on here to help me to try and duplicate a front head shot on a elephant
This is what we have come up with simple things you can buy on EBAY or AMZON

For the skin and muscle ---- 4 inch of wet copy paper
For the honeycomb skull (important to have the various air pockets density change for possible bullet straight
1"Cured Polyurethane Foam sandwiched between High Density Polyethylene 16". then another 1" of the polyethylene then 4 feet of wet copy paper to catch bullet ?
This will simulate the skull before the brain.

The testing will began just as soon as my Lott is ready from the gun smith maybe another month.
I have two new molds arriving this week for testing .

Looking forward to seeing all the comments and any new ideas on this subject.

 

[PaulT]

It is mind boggling the volume of thoroughly tested and beautifully documented data compiled by Michael and Sam. I can’t fathom how it was all accomplished. Their devotion to task is surely without question and greatly appreciated!

Too true, and well identified.

Having witnessed some of the field, and indoor testing, from the periphery, I can attest that the volume, effort, time, expense and detailed recording of the results of the testing is extensive and meticulous.

Kudos to Michael and others such as Sam Rose for all of this work, and the results that they share freely with us.
My buffalo killing proficiency improved beyond measure following my "education".

 

[michael458]

Boy I have! It is stressful! But my 390gr cast HP out of my 475 Linebaugh did the trick! I was very surprised it was a complete pass thru. Kinda wish I found the slug though. In hindsight sight, it have been a mock charge though. Either way, I was scared!

At least you had a slightly more capable Six Gun than I was stuck with when I had to face down this beast with a 45 ACP and 200 gr Keith type Semi Wadcutters! A man sometimes has to go with what he has in hand! I was lucky to have survived the incident to be honest. I too had a complete pass through, which surprised me considering how burly this bastard was. After this incident, I always tried to keep a long gun close by....................

 

[michael458]

Now one will always get that “one F-cken stick “ or critter ( private joke people between Michael & i lol ) yes I get that but one that if one gets a compromised #3 in anyway you WILL NOT get consistency now also let’s look @ this consistency what level does one accept & this is in 2 parts .

Yes Fordy, there is going to ALWAYS be that 1 in 10, or 1 in 100 times that field operations allows something to go wrong and there is crap that we can do about it. The best we can do is strive to get a consistent result that mitigates the 1 in 100 times............ 99 times, good to go. But somewhere along the way, there will be something introduced that we cannot possibly prepare for. Nature of the adventure in which we embark. I am glad you are finally coming around... LOL

Hello all .
Yes let's start this discussion on a modern turn in lead bullet technology .

Good Morning David, I am very pleased you have joined in, as we talked about the other week. I may have got us started, but this is really going to be your thread in the end. From the sound of things, I believe that many of us, myself included, are getting ready to be educated concerning "Lead Bullet Technology". Thank you for your valuable input.

micheal458 you are correct on the lead bullets you have shown they were made from
standard 6 % antimony , 2% tin , and 92 % lead called hard lead and did what they were supposed to do with the nose shape they had at the time .

David, you are the expert here on these matters, I could not even fathom or begin to tell you what sort of alloy I might have been using 20-25 years and even longer ago. But they were not up to par for what I needed for sure, and in fact, could have been somewhat of a danger. These bullets long ago are fine for "Trauma Inflicting" bullets, but trying to stretch them into true solids for straight, deep penetration is or was a no go.

Been a commercial bullet caster for over 50 years.
I have turned over my casting company ( Hunters Supply ) to my daughter and have retired from the sporting good world . Time for my bucket list L.O.L.

Congratulations sounds like well deserved. Now, as a note, I am almost 100% sure I have some Hunter Supply 45 ACP Bullets in my Range Loading Room where I load nothing but handgun cartridges, I am going to check later to confirm that. I have shot cast in 45 ACP for years, since I was a pup!

yes I am going to use micheal458 450 solid for my test perimeters against a modern lead bullet's .

You are a smart man, you have chosen the "Gold Standard" Solid in .458 Caliber, the only other bullet that can match or be close is the North Fork Copper 450....... I am sure you can see the resemblance to each other. If your cast bullet can match up to these, then you have been successful in your endeavor. I saw a photo drawing of the bullet you plan to cast, it appears very similar to the #13 CEB Solid in nose profile. This will be extremely interesting to see how it holds up. We will be hoping for no distortion, flow, or movement of material at reasonable velocity.

First off we start with 6 2 92 foundry certified lead no junk then we will add just a little hard lead shot
2 oz for 50 lbs of 6 2 92 why lead shot it is for the Arsenic.
You must have arsenic in the lead mix to harden the lead by heat treating the bullet.

The 6 2 92 lead mix will be 15 BHN
BHN stands for Brinell Hardness Number

With Arsenic added to the 6 2 92 mix and quenched in cold water the BHN will go from 15 to 25 BHN

With this hardness the lead will not shatter like lanotype lead with the same BHN number.
Heat treat the bullet.

Now we add powder coating or polymer coating to the bullet adds a very little to hardness but helps a lot on keeping the lead together and not up setting as much as 6 2 92 lead and this coatings helps
the bullet slide through rifling with out leading the bore at high velocity's and hi pressures .
IE you can shoot a lead bullet same speed of a the standard jacketed bullet with less powder less pressure.

Now we add the brass gas check to the base of the bullet to protect the bullet base from over
expanding.

Then we add modern smokeless bullet lube to the final bullet .

This is where I am coming from all modern technology for the lonely lead bullet .

Very Excellent, and way way above my pay grade. Modern Lead Bullet Tech.

Now LETS TALK ABOUT TESTING MEDIA

I have been in contact with a member on here to help me to try and duplicate a front head shot on a elephant
This is what we have come up with simple things you can buy on EBAY or AMZON

For the skin and muscle ---- 4 inch of wet copy paper
For the honeycomb skull (important to have the various air pockets density change for possible bullet straight
1"Cured Polyurethane Foam sandwiched between High Density Polyethylene 16". then another 1" of the polyethylene then 4 feet of wet copy paper to catch bullet ?
This will simulate the skull before the brain.

David, sounds good, I suppose, I am not familiar with the density of the Cured Foam or HDensity Polyethylene, will try and look that up, as you said available from Amazon.....

The testing will began just as soon as my Lott is ready from the gun smith maybe another month.
I have two new molds arriving this week for testing .

David !!!!........... A MONTH.......... What in the hell are we going to talk about before you are ready to test............ LOL

Thanks David, we all look forward to your endeavor, and stand ready to assist in any way we can. We are rooting for your success.
Michael

 

[LeftySixgun]

The alloy my friend took the cape buff with was 7lb of COWW, 3lb of SOWW, and approx 4oz of Linotype for “good measure”. He then powder coated but once the coated was cooked he then dropped the bullets in a bucket of water, hence the heat treating. He told me the first shot passed thru, a hollow point cast. I have the same mold. The PH told him to hit him again and he did. I don’t know the details of the second bullet, but I think it was found on the offside under the hide. The third bullet was an “insurance shot” when they recovered the buff. It was a 300gr Keith style cast (same alloy) and it had expanded very well and held together very well. He said the second shot wasn’t necessary.
As mentioned, heat treating requires arsenic. For us cheap guys, COWW (clip on wheel weights) has a pinch of arsenic and luckily it doesn’t take much.
The first bullet was from a MP RUGER “ONLY” mold. They are Cadillac molds from Slovenia. it’s a long flat nose design. The large HP is 300gr and the solid is 330gr. It’s an excellent bullet!! The muzzle velocity was around 1350fps area, shot from a longer barreled Blackhawk.

I won’t be hunting buff on my trip, but I plant to duplicate this alloy for my trip. I also plan to make some that are NOT heat treated as I don’t feel like I need that tough of an alloy for some of my plains game.

Now, what I would like to see is how much a little copper in the lead alloy makes the bullet behave toughness wise. I’ve been told you can introduce copper by using lead free solder that has copper in it. Or by using a bearing Babbitt that has copper in it. The copper is supposed to harden the bullet and make it super tough but NOT make it brittle like antimony does.
I have some of the bearing Babbitt but have never done media testing.

 

[LeftySixgun]

MP 45 ruger only PB HP 2 cavity mold - MP Molds

Cast .454 cal. bullets Solid = 327 gr., large/penta hp = 299 gr., small hp = 311 gr., cup hp = 321 gr. Meplat to crimp groove 0.456" Steel sprue plate Hardened steel alignment pins Allen keys included RCBS/Lyman top punch included Use LEE 6 cavity handle or MP mold handles (NOT included) See our...

www.mp-molds.com

Here’s a link to the mold. The two pictures are the same MP 45 Ruger “ONLY” bullet loaded in a 45colt case. The “ONLY” part is the nose is so long that it was designed around the longer Ruger cylinder. It fits in a FA 454 but you have to use a colt case if you want to crimp in the groove.
Again, it’s an excellent bullet. I have casted and shot a few thousand over the last 15yrs.

 

[Mountaineer]

@michael458 did you do any penetration testing with theCEB solid 9.3 cal 255 grain? Thanks

 

[michael458]

@michael458 did you do any penetration testing with theCEB solid 9.3 cal 255 grain? Thanks

Yes Mountaineer, the Solid is 280 gr, the matching Raptor is 255, I have data on both.........The Solid was very good, very capable for a Rat Bullet..... LOL

 

[David jr]

The alloy my friend took the cape buff with was 7lb of COWW, 3lb of SOWW, and approx 4oz of Linotype for “good measure”. He then powder coated but once the coated was cooked he then dropped the bullets in a bucket of water, hence the heat treating. He told me the first shot passed thru, a hollow point cast. I have the same mold. The PH told him to hit him again and he did. I don’t know the details of the second bullet, but I think it was found on the offside under the hide. The third bullet was an “insurance shot” when they recovered the buff. It was a 300gr Keith style cast (same alloy) and it had expanded very well and held together very well. He said the second shot wasn’t necessary.
As mentioned, heat treating requires arsenic. For us cheap guys, COWW (clip on wheel weights) has a pinch of arsenic and luckily it doesn’t take much.
The first bullet was from a MP RUGER “ONLY” mold. They are Cadillac molds from Slovenia. it’s a long flat nose design. The large HP is 300gr and the solid is 330gr. It’s an excellent bullet!! The muzzle velocity was around 1350fps area, shot from a longer barreled Blackhawk.

I won’t be hunting buff on my trip, but I plant to duplicate this alloy for my trip. I also plan to make some that are NOT heat treated as I don’t feel like I need that tough of an alloy for some of my plains game.

Now, what I would like to see is how much a little copper in the lead alloy makes the bullet behave toughness wise. I’ve been told you can introduce copper by using lead free solder that has copper in it. Or by using a bearing Babbitt that has copper in it. The copper is supposed to harden the bullet and make it super tough but NOT make it brittle like antimony does.
I have some of the bearing Babbitt but have never done media testing.

Let me save all of you a lot of headache .

Clip on wheel weights today are usually ZINK and Jink will eat your mold and will not cast correctly.

Copper is bad in the lead it will make the bullet very brittle will cast ok but is not really wanted in cast bullets .

When I bought truck loads of 42000 pounds foundry lead .
The foundry always gave a spec sheet on the entire lott before shipping and now to my daughter.

She is selling proper 6 2 92 and also 20 to 1 lead bars MidWay and Roto metals also sell proper lead bars to the bullet caster.

We tried to keep copper to less than .05% , 0 zinc and , bismuth less than .03% there are always more things in the lead but minute amounts arsenic is usually less than 1% this is why you need to add just a little magnum shot to your lead mix to make sure you have the arsenic present for heat treating .

Now for heat treating This is the best way I have found to do it correct.
Cast bullet
air cool to room temp
size to the proper diameter lee push through sizing die work very well.
Place on a cooky sheet standing up in a toaster oven at 400 degrees for 10 minuets or sooner if you see the bullets starting to slump. take out of oven put directly into ice water .
collect harden bullets dry off then powder or palmer coat bullets add gas check and then the extra step use modern bullet lube . I would suggest WHITE LABLE CARNAUBA RED (2800 FPS)
Now you have a bullet ready for hunting .

Will not lead bore and can be shot to standard velocity if needed .
I usually only shot smaller calibers for hunting . Butt from what I am seeing today the very heaviest lead bullets will not need max velocity to accomplish the task at hand .
A lot of animals over the years have been taken with heavy hand gun bullets in the 1300 to 1500 fps
range .

I thank you Micheal458 for shooting the elephant in the ear and achieving pass through with the small 45/70 load gives me a lot more confidence in the 550 to 700 gr lead bullet in the Lott
for frontal head shot if needed .
David