Captive Lions For Sale At Safari Club International

[WAB]

Royal, you're out of control buddy!

I am intrigued by this entire discussion. Any who know me know that I work hard to hunt wild animals in wild places. Having spent most of my adult life in Wyoming and Alaska, I've been blessed with many opportunities to do so. My African safaris have been no exception. However, I was also raised as a farm kid in Canada. On farms we raise critters to kill them. How is raising these african critters for harvest any different? I mean seriously, do we ascribe a higher moral value to a captive bred lion than a captive bred cow, elk, whitetail, impala or whatever? They are animals, they have no soul. As God's creation they deserve our respect, but we are also given the responsibility of their management. I am really lost as to how we have decided that some animals can be raised for harvest and other cannot.

If you really peel the onion back to the macro level, is this captive breeding morally different than dedicating a million acre block for the wild propagation of a species with the intent to harvest the surplus population? Is this not also a form of management with the intent to harvest?

In my opinion we should support one another. The fact that I have no interest in the hunting of captive bred lion does not mean that I am against it. In fact, I think it is awesome that it provides fellow hunters an opportunity that they could never afford with wild lion. That opportunity will only reinforce their love of the species and their dedication to its preservation. After all, if we don't do it, who will?

 

[spike.t]

Captive bred lions will preserve the species just like captive bred Rhino.

The SCI are a bunch of hypocrites. They list estate hunting, but boycott captive bred lion hunts due to pressure from the antis.

Bit of a difference between rhino and lions......rhino browse and graze wandering around the bush.... Lions need feeding .....I don't know the maths but I would presume it's not cheap.... So if the hunts dried up I have a feeling that the majority of the lions in these breeding places would be put down.... As I think I read somewhere that this was brought up when the captive breeding issue was big news couple of years ago.....

 

[Hank2211]

SAPA, if memory serves, assisted in a release int the wild somewhere.

I know there was a "release" in Mozambique. Memory does not serve on the source of those lions.
They were being kept in an enclosure after transport to be released into the wild to reintroduce the species to the area.

That was the "Cabela's lions" I think, which were released into Mark Haldane's hunting area on Moz. I don't know if they were wild or captive raised, but I think the former. They are doing exceptionally well in any event, it seems.

 

[Fred Gunner]

When you can sit a home if front of your computer and with a click of your mouse select the exact Animal you want to shot. When you know with 100% certainty that the exact animal you pick will be in specific location on the exact dates you pick… And there is no chance that the animal you specifically selected has any chance to leave that area…That’s called shooting fish in a barrel or a “Can” You’re not Hunting

PS: This whole concept of the notion that if you don’t support the people who shot captive bred lions you're required to keep your mouth shut is as anti-American as anything I can imagine . It’s reminds me of the LGBT movement that demands mandatory acceptance by society and anyone who speaks out against them is guilty of a hate crime.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Hi all, I have been reading all the above posts concerning lion hunting. I may not be as well educated or have as many safaris as most of you. I am a working middle class Texan and will never be able to afford a truly wild free range lion hunt. I have only made two safaris to South Africa and have a third coming up this June. My PH has found me the opportunity to hunt a lioness in the Kalahari at a price I can afford even tho I can not import back to USA. I have been told to expect alot of foot miles for this hunt. There are more than just a couple females there. I look at this hunt no different than any of the plains game hunts I have done. Everything is behind fences no matter how big the property is. It is no different than hunting any of the thousands of ranches in Texas for Exotic and Whitetail deer. Hunting ranches range from 200 to 20,000 or more acres here. Animals are bought and sold, raised and released all the time. We never complain about it. Just accept it because thats the way it is.
We as hunters need to support each other in our hunts and not give fuel to the antis by bashing each other for doing a particular hunt if we dont agree with it. I for one will post pic of my hunt if I am successful here on AH. But as for posting on other social media a may not. Some people that know I am planning a lioness hunt are already giving me grief about doing it. If you can not support each other in my opinion it is best to keep your mouth shut as to not add fuel to the antis.

If any of the AH moderators need to edit due to my grammar feel free to.

happy hunting

 

[SafariA]

Here you go ...

https://www.safariclub.org/blog/sci-opens-ethics-investigation

 

[Hank2211]

When you can sit a home if front of your computer and with a click of your mouse select the exact Animal you want to shot. When you know with 100% certainty that the exact animal you pick will be in specific location on the exact dates you pick… And there is no chance that the animal you specifically selected has any chance to leave that area…That’s called shooting fish in a barrel or a “Can” You’re not Hunting

PS: This whole concept of the notion that if you don’t support the people who shot captive bred lions you're required to keep your mouth shut is as anti-American as anything I can imagine . It’s reminds me of the LGBT movement that demands mandatory acceptance by society and anyone who speaks out against them is guilty of a hate crime.

First, I don't disagree with your definition of a canned hunt. I assume, though, that you're aware that not every captive bred lion hunt is as you describe? Certainly, mine wasn't.

Secondly, I'm not aware of anyone saying you were required to "shut your mouth" if you disagreed with something (although I admit some might have come close). What I believe many of us are saying is that hunters have enough problems with anti-hunters who are using the CBL issue to attack all of us, and that those who don't agree with CBL hunting should consider how their words might be used against all hunters, and not just hunters of lions. It's a kind of united we stand thing, without any requirement that you actually agree with CBL hunting. "It's not for me but I respect your right to engage in legal hunting" might sum up what those who are against this legal practice might say.

Now, lastly, you don't really believe that all of those people who are against CBL hunting would suddenly embrace hunting generally if only this practice were stopped?

 

[Fred Gunner]

I know there was a "release" in Mozambique. Memory does not serve on the source of those lions.

What your think about is called 24 Lions:

The Cabela Family Foundation has partnered with Zambeze Delta Conservation, Ivan Carter Wildlife Conservation Alliance, and ANAC to reverse this trend in the Zambeze Delta Ecosystem.
In the middle months of 2018, 24 lions were reintroduced into the ecosystem…

Q: WHAT PROCESS WAS INVOLVED IN CAPTURING, TRANSPORTING AND RELEASING THE LIONS SAFELY AND HUMANELY?

A: We carefully identified the best South African lion populations for the reintroduction; all specific conservation-based criteria dictated they be free-range wild lions that had never been in captivity, as well as that they be genetically diverse but of the same subspecies that naturally occurs in Mozambique.

Lions in their livestock enclosures at Msunduze River Lodge were placed under quarantine and met the strictest animal welfare and security standards. They were inspected and certified by the local wildlife authority.

Each of the properties contributing animals provided formal permission for the gifting of lions. Regional export and import permits from those areas were acquired.

Once legal requirements were satisfied, lions were professionally captured by an experienced veterinary team. The professionals screened each lion for disease and supervised their transport to the quarantine livestock enclosures.

Different lion groups were carefully integrated during the quarantine period to form larger social units that could be released together. Larger prides are generally more successful at hunting and recolonization of new areas.

Finally, aircraft were reserved to transport the lions to the release site in Mozambique.

https://www.24lions.org/frequently-asked-questions

 

[Scott CWO]

I see some of @Fred Gunner points. Many of these CBL situations are not hunts.

I also agree with @WAB that while I don't care to shoot a CBL, I don't necessarily think it should be illegal and I am not going to publicly criticize someone doing it in a larger enclosure. These are tough issues. I have never hunted behind a high fence but I am not totally against it if the ranch is large enough and the animals are free to interact, breed, kill, be killed, elude the hunter, etc... How big of an area should the lion be in? I guess these are personal issues that we each need to decide for ourselves.

I support SCI's position that CBL shooting should not be advertised at the convention.

 

[SafariA]

Thanks for that post @Fred Gunner . I will aprreciate an answer to my question regarding the Organization and the possibilty of CBL surviving being released in the wild.

Happy Hunting !

 

[Fred Gunner]

I am not totally against it if the ranch is large enough and the animals are free to interact, breed, kill, be killed, elude the hunter, etc..

I agree but such a place does not exist. I've looked into this extensively. If you had a pride of Lions in a High fenced game preserve where the prey animals couldn't escape the Lions would eat the owners out of house and home. Further more the enormous liability of having the Lions escape as they so often do from Govt. Game preserves and the cost of building and maintaining an escape proof enclosure for even 20K acres would drive the cost above the price of a wild lion hunt. That's why nobody has such a place.

 

[Fred Gunner]

Thanks for that post @Fred Gunner . I will aprreciate an answer to my question regarding the Organization and the possibilty of CBL surviving being released in the wild.

Happy Hunting !

Captive lion reintroduction programs in Africa operate under 'conservation myth'
A new report published in the international conservation journal Oryx concludes that commercial 'wildlife encounter' operations across Africa promoting the reintroduction of captive lions do little to further the conservation of African lions in the wild.

The Oryx paper assesses the potential of these programs to assist wild lion conservation by evaluating the role and suitability of captive lions for release. The report concludes that captive-bred lions are simply unnecessary for reintroduction projects. For more than two decades, wild lions have been translocated and rigorously monitored in over 40 parks across southern Africa with high success rates. Over 500 wild lions have been re-established by this process. More importantly, the evaluation shows that captive-bred lions and their offspring are poorly suited for survival and release compared to their wild-born counterparts.

I'm sure you'll find fault with the source: But if theThe Cabela Family Foundation has partnered with Zambeze Delta Conservation, Ivan Carter Wildlife Conservation Alliance, and ANAC all agreed that using captive bred lions was wrong that's good enough for me.

 

[BRICKBURN]

What your think about is called 24 Lions:

The Cabela Family Foundation has partnered with Zambeze Delta Conservation, Ivan Carter Wildlife Conservation Alliance, and ANAC to reverse this trend in the Zambeze Delta Ecosystem.
In the middle months of 2018, 24 lions were reintroduced into the ecosystem…

Q: WHAT PROCESS WAS INVOLVED IN CAPTURING, TRANSPORTING AND RELEASING THE LIONS SAFELY AND HUMANELY?

A: We carefully identified the best South African lion populations for the reintroduction; all specific conservation-based criteria dictated they be free-range wild lions that had never been in captivity, as well as that they be genetically diverse but of the same subspecies that naturally occurs in Mozambique.

Lions in their livestock enclosures at Msunduze River Lodge were placed under quarantine and met the strictest animal welfare and security standards. They were inspected and certified by the local wildlife authority.

Each of the properties contributing animals provided formal permission for the gifting of lions. Regional export and import permits from those areas were acquired.

Once legal requirements were satisfied, lions were professionally captured by an experienced veterinary team. The professionals screened each lion for disease and supervised their transport to the quarantine livestock enclosures.

Different lion groups were carefully integrated during the quarantine period to form larger social units that could be released together. Larger prides are generally more successful at hunting and recolonization of new areas.

Finally, aircraft were reserved to transport the lions to the release site in Mozambique.

https://www.24lions.org/frequently-asked-questions

Similar. There was a much more private initiative. They did not really promote it. I found it while digging one day. No help, because I did not save the info.

 

[Chago]

This thread..... I'm gonna go start another one that discusses hornady ammo, muzzle brakes and tipping.

 

[Royal27]

Here you go ...

https://www.safariclub.org/blog/sci-opens-ethics-investigation

This will be interesting....

I can see this going either way and ending up making me think more, or less, of SCI. They can either be truthful and honest, or throw the exhibitors to the antis like they did Dr. Palmer.

I also don't think I've ever seen it clearly stated that CBL hunts can't be sold at SCI, just that they can't be marketed. A gray area that is likely no accident.

 

[SafariA]

Thanks for that .... not sure you answered my question on which Association you said supported CBL said CBL cannot survive in the wild if released .... thats my question . I guess each person may have his or her opinion on something and I respect that .....under one condition ..... do not force it on me .

I might think it is not fairchase to put a scope on a rifle .... to use binoculars .... to sit over bait at a waterhole or saltlick or to sit in a blind over bait and wait for the Lion to walk in and I can drop him with one well aimed shot without him knowing I am there ..... but we all have our own opinion on all of the above .

I might not find it farchase or " ethical " to hunt with a bow ....

Our biggest problem today is not the Anti ' s .....we are our own biggest enemies and the Anti's play that . Go have a look at the video again . Elephant , Black Rhino , Wild Lion , Plains game and CBL is metioned in the 2 min clip .....and even us as hunters pay Zero attention to the intention .....to SHUT all hunting . Do not think for a moment it is about CBL it is about all hunting.

Lets agree to disagree and take hands against the THREAT out THERE.

Happy Hunting !

Our biggest problem as that we as hunters

 

[Royal27]

Similar. There was a much more private initiative. They did not really promote it. I found it while digging one day. No help, because I did not save the info.

You mean the one that SAPA sponsored? Think that was warthog safaris.

It is interesting that you can't find any follow-up to this. How are they doing three years later?

 

[Hank2211]

I agree but such a place does not exist. I've looked into this extensively. If you had a pride of Lions in a High fenced game preserve where the prey animals couldn't escape the Lions would eat the owners out of house and home. Further more the enormous liability of having the Lions escape as they so often do from Govt. Game preserves and the cost of building and maintaining an escape proof enclosure for even 20K acres would drive the cost above the price of a wild lion hunt. That's why nobody has such a place.

Bubye Valley Conservancy is such a place.

 

[MarkB]

When you can sit a home if front of your computer and with a click of your mouse select the exact Animal you want to shot. When you know with 100% certainty that the exact animal you pick will be in specific location on the exact dates you pick… And there is no chance that the animal you specifically selected has any chance to leave that area…That’s called shooting fish in a barrel or a “Can” You’re not Hunting

PS: This whole concept of the notion that if you don’t support the people who shot captive bred lions you're required to keep your mouth shut is as anti-American as anything I can imagine . It’s reminds me of the LGBT movement that demands mandatory acceptance by society and anyone who speaks out against them is guilty of a hate crime.

I have never seen, heard or encountered any of the things in your first para but I think we can all agree that these stated things are not considered hunting and are all associated with "canned" hunting and that is illegal. I would personally not participate in this sort of shoot. As a hunter who is going on a CBL hunt this summer, I have had no ability to do any of those things. I have encountered none of what you state with my hunt? Have you researched or read the SAPA doc I posted many pages ago concerning rules for all CBL hunts? These are the rules my hunt will follow if I expect (and I do) to export and import with CITES permits to Canada.

Do you support hunting of any species in a fenced environment? If no I can somewhat understand your position, if yes I am really confused how you pick species.

You do understand that Kruger National Park is fenced?

I support all legal forms of hunting anywhere on the planet. I also understand the divide and conquer techniques used by our enemies and how they are working and reducing our opportunities all over the world. This irritates me as it will impact my grandchildren's ability to enjoy what we do now.

MB

 

[Bailey Vinac]

Putting aside people's feelings on captive-bred lion hunting, the main question that needs to be asked is were the exhibitors trying to sell these hunts at the convention?

If you watch the video carefully you will see there are a larger number of cuts and questions to try to get the exhibitors to say certain things. For instance, if you look at the first outfitter questioned they ask the price of a lion hunt, he says the cheapest place is South Africa, then cut to him talking about five of the lions in the top ten were hunted by his outfitter, implying they were hunted in South Africa. This outfitter hunts mainly in Zambia.

From another newspaper article:

'Bush Africa Safaris said in a statement that it does not market captive-bred lions in the U.S. The statement said booth operative in the video was discussing wild and wild-managed lions and was showing hunts involving captive-bred lions taken before the ban more than four years ago, it said.

"My operative has been setup with very selective questioning, and also very selective footage on answers that was given to the reporters," the statement reads. "I once again state that we do not market, or partake, or have for the past 4 years, offer the hunt of captive bred Lions in SA to US citizens." '

From Schalk van Heerden (Bush Africa Safaris) on facebook

'First you need all the facts to have an opinion.
Nothing was offered or advertised. Very selective journalism and footage shown, with the only hunts offered being on wild, or wild managed Lions.
Bush Africa follows the protocol set to us by both Sa and US government, as well enforced by our show sponsors SCI and DSC.'

From Stone Hunting Safaris facebook page

'I have a message to that lady that secretly interviewed me at the SCI show in Reno. Why do you not show the full interview? I noticed you conveniently edited out the part where I said we do not hunt lion in South Africa and that we hunt lion in Zambia. I guess this part did not suit your narrative! Lady you have zero credibility and you are a liar! I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for buying a pass to get into the SCI show. You have finally donated some of your money to a good cause! I would also like to thank you for the free marketing, you have boosted our sales! ( specifically lion hunts ) When you have to manipulate the facts to suit your agenda it shows what a horrendous trench pig you are! Lady if I had a face like yours I would cut it off and grow a scab! Perhaps this explains why you were hiding behind your camera!

I wish to make it abundantly clear that I am for any form of legal hunting and that sustainable trophy hunting is the greatest conservation tool on the planet. You leaf lickers will never stop me from hunting! This only serves to make me more determined in my endeavor to continue providing first class hunting safaris'