Barnes bullets in.30-06

[ofbiro]

I had good accuracy (3 shots in 30 mm at 200 m) with Barnes LRX - TSX-TTSX in 7 mm Rem. Mag., as wella as good terminal effect. One chamois doe ran about 80 m before collapsing, while many other aniamals (from roedeer to gemsbuck) fell on the spot or few steps away.
On the other hand, I cannot succeed in having similar accuracy in .30-06. The powder was Norma 204, 57 grs for TTSX 150 grs and 62 grs for TSX 130 grs.
The group was about 40 mm at 150 m.
When using other loads the rifle (a CZ carbine in Mannlicher style) is capable of smaller groups.
Is anybody using those bullets in .30-06?
Thanks in advance.

 

[shootist~]

40mm at 150M is about 0.9 MOA. Sounds like good accuracy to me.

 

[Firebird]

I did well with 150 gr ttsx and Big Game powder as well as H 4895 but that powder was not quite as accurate nor as fast.

 

[Firebird]

For what it’s worth-I currently working on a .270 for a guy with 130 gr ttsx. Seated per factory info

and using Ramshot Hunter, I had immediate success with them at 58 grains.

 

[ofbiro]

Last Saturday I tried a new load for Barnes bullets in .30-06.
I used:
-TTSX 150 grs bullets
-Norma 203 B C 51,5 grs
-CCI BR2 primers.

The accuracy was good: 6 holes within 40 mm at 200 m. However the recoil was very heavy and the neck was regularly but completeliy blackened.
Tomorrow I will try a lighter load (49,5 grs) with the same components as well as TSX 130 grs propelled by 54 grs.
According to Quickload all recipes (including the first) are below the max. pressure.
Any suggestions and comments?

 

[SRvet]

Last Saturday I tried a new load for Barnes bullets in .30-06.
I used:
-TTSX 150 grs bullets
-Norma 203 B C 51,5 grs
-CCI BR2 primers.

The accuracy was good: 6 holes within 40 mm at 200 m. However the recoil was very heavy and the neck was regularly but completeliy blackened.
Tomorrow I will try a lighter load (49,5 grs) with the same components as well as TSX 130 grs propelled by 54 grs.
According to Quickload all recipes (including the first) are below the max. pressure.
Any suggestions and comments?

Just a question…Do you have access to a reliable chronograph? If you do that would provide really useful information. If you don’t have a chronograph I would suggest looking up the Optimum charge weight (OCW) load development method and follow that. Unfortunately the Quickload simulations can be inaccurate but it makes a big difference if you can true the simulation to match the actual velocity figures.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Going to be honest here. We get to see a lot of different equipment come through camp, whether its optics, rifle brands, calibers and different ammunition, factory and loaded. Many here know my dislike for Barnes on Buffalo since we had a few not opening and zipping through bulls, but I still stayed in the supporters camp for Barnes on plains game.
My perception lately has certainly changed. I used to be a big supporter of the mono metal bullets, and still feel that they have a place. My 308Win are still loaded with light for caliber 130gr GS Customs, but I keep that rifle for many of the Tiny 10 such as Common Duiker, Cape Grysbuck, Oribi etc. Animals where I want a quick pass through with minimal damage. This rifle with this combination has also taken countless Eland, so will certainly get the jog done on the biggest of them.
During this season, I have had quite a few hunters hunting with Barnes TTSX. The bullets are zipping through the animals so quickly, that sometimes it was even hard to tell if the animal was hit, most of the time resulting in me telling my hunter to shoot again, only to get to the animal and finding two bullet holes. One from each shot. One of these rifles was a 300 Win Mag, and happened on almost every animal. Subsequently, the rifle picked up a problem, which reminds me to follow up on what the problem was, which resulted in the hunter using my 300Win for the last two animals of his package which was a Waterbuck and a Zebra. My rifle is loaded with 180gr Game Kings. Even the hunter commented on the difference on the reaction of the animals.

My question is, is the Barnes TSX/TTSX only good for a good shot? Can we always guarantee a good shot? I don't mind a lead core bullet losing 40% of its frontal weight, because I know that the 40% of shrapnel lost, is causing massive internal damage to the animal making for a quick recovery, even on less than perfect shot placements. There is always a chance of a piece of copper jacket cutting a liver or nicking a lung. The 60% will be more than enough for straight line penetration.

Let me know your thoughts on my opinion.

 

[ofbiro]

My Answers:

1. to SRvet. Yes I have a chronograph (an Ammomaster, sold by Sierra). The number of shot was not enough to establish a solid statitiscal base.

2. to KMG: I have no personal experience with buffaloes, neither with other large animals. My usual european quarry consist on roe deer (main game), chamois and mouflon. In Namibia I shot wildebeest, hartebesst, oryx and springbock with a 7 mm Rem. Mag. using Barnes LRX 145 grs. The distance was within 200 m and the animals ran for a short distance, within 25 m.
Many thanks for the comments.

 

[RLL]

My Ruger ‘06 does not group lighter bullets, less than 165gr, very well either. I tried different powders, cases, seating depths, primers,etc…I moved to 180gr TTSX, Partitions, and woodleighs, precision problem solved.

 

[SRvet]

At home we shoot fairly large numbers of roe and red deer with the Barnes TTSX bullets and have done for over a decade. Most are shot with the 130g TTSX at 3050fps in the 308 and a fewer number with the 150g TTSX at 3250fps in a 300WSM. Very few deer make it more than a few metres and we would consider an 80m run a poor result. The 150g TTSX @3250 currently has an excellent record with none having run after being hit. Whilst I agree with you about statistical significance, any measured data is better than no data and can give you a more accurate simulation. The other way that Quickload can help is by matching the barrel time of your load. Search optimal barrel time for more information on this. I was a bit dubious at first but it does seem to work.

 

[Areaonereal]

In Response to KMG above. My son has used the TTSX and TSX on over 80 plains game from Jackal to Kudu and Zebra….on two or three he has lost due to a pencil pass thru…other have lost all petals on the few that were recovered. He is comfortable using them…but not for me. Surprisingly. I have found the standard Speer Hot Cor to be an excellent bulllet with 70 to 80 percent weight retention on zebra. I used Hammer Bullets last year and experience wounded, with tracking. Not pleased with the results, ….I had a few of the Speer that I normally would use on a finishing shot on a wounded and down animal, so out of desperation I used them on my first shot with very pleasing results on Zebra, oryx and wildebeast….after a series of shots with the Hammer bullets to finally anchor a cull wildebeast I switched to the Speer. I have experience with Nosler Accubond and Partitions with excellent results. My son and I. 30 06 with 180 gr fo me and his 168 gr Barnes. My 180 at 2750 FPS, his 168 Barnes at 2825. Hand loads. I have used the Norma Oryx bullet with good results, but BC is so low that long shots require more holdover than the others. Most of my hunting now is Management. August will be my 10 th trip in eight years to SA and Namibia.

 

[Dr Ray]

I found those plastic tipped bullets destroyed so much meat on deer I don’t use again
I used Nosler bullets in my 270

 

[Nkawu]

I used to use Barnes in my 308 and while I never lost an animal I might as well have been using solids. On light game like impala, and even pigs, it just zipped through with no expansion. I have recently changed to a lighter similar monolithic by Peregrine (167 grain VLR) and last week shot an impala (double lung) and ran off and I thought I had missed. I also shot a pig and ended up shooting it 3 times. I am now thinking of swapping to the peregrine flat nose expanding monolithic (VRG).

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

I used to use Barnes in my 308 and while I never lost an animal I might as well have been using solids. On light game like impala, and even pigs, it just zipped through with no expansion. I have recently changed to a lighter similar monolithic by Peregrine (167 grain VLR) and last week shot an impala (double lung) and ran off and I thought I had missed. I also shot a pig and ended up shooting it 3 times. I am now thinking of swapping to the peregrine flat nose expanding monolithic (VRG).

There is a fine line between what will be acceptable for local RSA hunters on game and what we are doing with foreign hunters. As locals, normally we are looking for a bullet that wont waste too much meat, and unfortunately, this is where the monos perform best, so there is that side to the argument. As I said, they are good bullets for good shots.
When hunting with my hunters, I am looking for bullets that will cause the most trauma which will aid in recovery.

 

[Nkawu]

There is a fine line between what will be acceptable for local RSA hunters on game and what we are doing with foreign hunters. As locals, normally we are looking for a bullet that wont waste too much meat, and unfortunately, this is where the monos perform best, so there is that side to the argument. As I said, they are good bullets for good shots.
When hunting with my hunters, I am looking for bullets that will cause the most trauma which will aid in recovery.

Very good point. Unless I have hit a major bone, the meat damage has been minimal. I suppose as a local hunter I have the benefit of being more picky with my shots.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Very good point. Unless I have hit a major bone, the meat damage has been minimal. I suppose as a local hunter I have the benefit of being more picky with my shots.

100%

 

[ofbiro]

Many thanks for to all collegues for interesting advices. After having getting rid of a few hundreds of bullets I still own enough lead and copper for many years of future stalks. I think I will give up researches. I am close to 80 so I will concentrate my efforts to zeroing and using the rest of my "ammo dump". Thanks again.

 

[SRvet]

Interesting comments, my experience from talking to lots of people in the Uk as well as having shot a few hundred deer with the TSX and TTSX (my son and friends have each done something similar) is that they need a decent terminal velocity to work well. Using a 180g TSX in a small cased 308 is asking for trouble and simply dropping bullet weight to 130gr and getting velocity up to 3000fps absolutely transforms the performance of these bullets. They still penetrate well but do not pencil through. In some bullet designs at high velocity we have see petals being shed with resulting small exit wounds but the deer have all died quickly and only travelled a few metres. The 100g 6.5mm TTSX has been the main culprit at 3300fps. Interestingly the same bullet behaves much better and gives larger exit wounds beyond 200m. We suspect that the petals are being retained at the lower terminal velocity.
Now I don’t know whether the UK experience will translate directly to Africa and the wider variety of game…I would be interested to know if anyone has anyone used the 130g TTSX at 3000fps or any other light for calibre TTSX on African plains game and what the results were like?

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Interesting comments, my experience from talking to lots of people in the Uk as well as having shot a few hundred deer with the TSX and TTSX (my son and friends have each done something similar) is that they need a decent terminal velocity to work well. Using a 180g TSX in a small cased 308 is asking for trouble and simply dropping bullet weight to 130gr and getting velocity up to 3000fps absolutely transforms the performance of these bullets. They still penetrate well but do not pencil through. In some bullet designs at high velocity we have see petals being shed with resulting small exit wounds but the deer have all died quickly and only travelled a few metres. The 100g 6.5mm TTSX has been the main culprit at 3300fps. Interestingly the same bullet behaves much better and gives larger exit wounds beyond 200m. We suspect that the petals are being retained at the lower terminal velocity.
Now I don’t know whether the UK experience will translate directly to Africa and the wider variety of game…I would be interested to know if anyone has anyone used the 130g TTSX at 3000fps or any other light for calibre TTSX on African plains game and what the results were like?

The 300 Win that I was referring to in my original post was pushing the 180gr TTSX at around 3020 fps if I recall correctly.

 

[SRvet]

The 300 Win that I was referring to in my original post was pushing the 180gr TTSX at around 3020 fps if I recall correctly.

Interesting, we have limited our bullet weights to 150g in the 300WSM. How is your 308 with the 130g GS customs on impala etc