Barnes bullet failures?

Discussion in 'Firearms & Ammunition' started by njc110381, Oct 20, 2019.

  1. JPbowhunter

    JPbowhunter AH Fanatic

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    It's different for different calibres and different weights within the same calibre. I email the shit out of Barnes when I get a new rifle about reloading information. Out of the same cal reliable expansion might vary by up to 300fps with 30 or 50 grain difference in projectiles.

    This thread doesn't need to exist, there are always going to be people that complain or don't like something irrespective of what it's like. Use barnes as they're designed and you won't go back.
     
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  2. Hogpatrol

    Hogpatrol AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Sounds like a winner to me. (y):D
     
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  3. PHOENIX PHIL

    PHOENIX PHIL AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    Would you prefer 90% of a 180gr .308 remaining after a shot or 60% of 200gr?

    The questions presumed you’re shooting a fairly large animal.
     
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  4. One Day...

    One Day... AH Fanatic

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    And sectional density...
    I was too. My rule was simple: only shoot Federal Premium Nosler Partition in the heaviest weight available: e.g. 150 gr in .270, 160 gr in 7 mag, 180 gr in .300 mag, .250 gr in .338/340 mag, 300 gr in .375 H&H etc. and shoot big: e.g. my first one-rifle PG safari was with a .340 Wby owing to Kudu, Hartebeest, Wildebeest, Eland being on the package...

    As I reluctantly get dragged kicking and screaming into post 1948 technology (Nosler Partition market release date), my brain calculates that there is a strong logic to state that, for a given caliber, a mono that retains 95% weight could weigh what a Nosler Partition minus its front core (40%) weighs. But I still cannot get myself to consider a 108 gr .300 mag... Barnes does make a 110 gr .308 TTSX, but I do not think they intend it for any .300 mag. This is where the third factor comes into play in my analysis: with a bullet this light and this short in this caliber, the sectional density (i.e. penetration momentum) really drops too much I am afraid.

    I have proven to myself 16 times that a 100 gr TTSX from a .257 Wby will kill any plains game dead-right-there with a proper shot, with quarter-sized expansion (1" exit holes diameter or more), and pass-through penetration, but this bullet has a decent 0.216 sectional density and a decent 0.357 ballistic coefficient.

    Conversely, a 110 gr TTSX .308 bullet only has a 0.166 sectional density and only a 0.295 ballistic coefficient. These are quite low. I am not going there myself...

    I feel much better with a 130 gr TTSX .308 that has a 0.196 sectional density and a 0.350 ballistic coefficient. Actually, the 150 gr TTSX .308 tops the 100 gr .257 TTSX in that respect, with a 0.226 sectional density and a 0.420 ballistic coefficient. So, technically the 150 gr will penetrate better, which I would consider, IF I had recovered even one 100 gr .257 TTSX. Since I did not, I guess that I am OK with the expected penetration from the 130 gr . 300 TTSX... That is a ~30% decrease in weight compared to the mythical 180 gr that made all the .300 famous.

    Life is a long learning experience, is not it?
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
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  5. BeeMaa

    BeeMaa AH Elite

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    I'm thinking 90% retention of a 180 grain 300WM Swift A-Frame vs a faster moving 150 or 165 grain TTSX.
    Or the same in 375H&H with 300 grain SAF's vs 270 grain Barnes TSX.

    I want my cake and to eat it too.
     
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  6. PHOENIX PHIL

    PHOENIX PHIL AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    You’d be preaching to the choir. I prefer my beloved North Fork bonded cores, but A-Frames are a fine alternative.
     
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  7. BeeMaa

    BeeMaa AH Elite

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    I get it and will continue to use my beloved SAF's where I can.
    Just keeping my eyes to the future and thinking about going lead free.
    Being prepared for doing so and possibly finding a sweet shooting (and killing) load would be good.
     
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  8. One Day...

    One Day... AH Fanatic

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    Up-gunning technology...
    I am there too with Phil. 90% weight retention from a 180 gr .300 mono - North Fork are great, I only wish someone would load them commercially! I never had the time yet to get into reloading... - or A frame leaves 162 gr to do the work after the first couple inches of penetration. To still have 162 gr to punch through with a bullet that shaves 40% of its weight, you need to start not with 200 gr but with 270 gr...

    As I said above, that puts the modern mono (and A Frame) 180 gr .300 solidly into .375 H&H traditional territory...

    And this leads us to the inescapable conclusion that modern loads and bullets have generally up gunned considerably the performance of the traditional calibers and loads that made Africa Safari legends (180 gr .300 and 300 gr .375). We stick to them mostly based on acquired norms, or romanticism (this is why I shoot a double on DG) but in truth we could do just as well and likely better (because they are easier to shoot) with modern better bullets in lower calibers.

    I ain't giving up my .300, .375, .416, .458 and .470 though :)

    Heck! That is already the second time it happens in Africa. The conversion from black powder to smokeless powder already drove calibers and bullet weights to drop dramatically! Imagine the cultural shock for the contemporary hunters, going from shooting elephant with a 4 bore (0.935–0.955" caliber) throwing 1/4 lb lead balls (1,750 gr projectile!!!) down to a .256 Mannlicher shooting a 159 gr bullet. Now THAT was a drastic weight reduction :E Rofl:
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019

  9. C.W. Richter

    C.W. Richter AH Veteran

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    GMX will likely group better for long range work. I've used all Barnes bullets (since the original leaded SP!) and their performance on game is generally very good, but I find in the smaller calibers (.22-.25-.26-.27-.28) they don't seem to group as well as their counterparts. .3o-.338 TTSX and my favorite (discontinued MRX <moment of silence> in "favor" of LRX) flew exceptionally well!!! In larger calibers, I tried 'em. The African big game died, but the bullets eat up precious powder space (less dense, so longer), so in those circumstances I have to recommend Swift (or even better Woodleigh). Your first shot on thinner-skinned big game should be with a soft so the barnes will work, but any follow-up shots (and ANY shots on elephant, hippo, rhino) should be with solids-my absolute favorite being the Barnes brass alloy solids. They are phenomenal and print similarly to the swift a-frames. *the comment re: velocity is valid as well. In a standard velocity gun, use the soft points instead. High velocity true magnum guns will "make it happen" upon impact.
     

  10. C.W. Richter

    C.W. Richter AH Veteran

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    *****no cultural shock w/ the .256 performance! LOVE my .264 mag wildcat. It's extremely accurate, light, quick pointing, and with the right bullet, can kill ANYTHING. Bell and Jamieson, of course would agree....
     
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  11. C.W. Richter

    C.W. Richter AH Veteran

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    you didn't mention caliber/cartridge. not all are the same. 7mm?
     

  12. C.W. Richter

    C.W. Richter AH Veteran

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    I'd be more concerned with exposed, lead tipped bullets (with them, YES!) Never w/ the plastics. Though, at moderate range the lead-tipped bullets generally perform better on game.
     

  13. perttime

    perttime AH Veteran

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    I believe the length for weight must also affect how the bullet stabilizes in the rifling.

    There's probably barrels that do not stabilize the longer bullet well enough for good accuracy.
     
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  14. ack

    ack AH Enthusiast

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  15. ack

    ack AH Enthusiast

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    Velo Dog,,We just finished a great hunt with Khomas..Wife and I took 15 animals of all types with Swift A-Frames..Fantastic bullet as all were put down with first shot.....She killed a large giraffe with one shot from a 30/06....
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
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  16. Ray B

    Ray B AH Elite

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    Bill Steigers made one run of .423" bullets- I'd prefer one of them to any other, but until I find one I'll go with North Forks- at least until lead is banned and the ban is enforced.
     
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  17. bruce moulds

    bruce moulds AH Elite

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    90% of 180 any time.
    heavier, going faster, what more do you want.
    bruce.
     

  18. PHOENIX PHIL

    PHOENIX PHIL AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    That too
     

  19. njc110381

    njc110381 AH Enthusiast

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    I've mulled over this. The conclusion I came to was that the sectional density of the cup and core reduces very quickly upon impact when shedding the lead core. Quite how one would work out how much difference that makes I'm not sure? But it will make a difference. So the Barnes starting off lighter shouldn't matter so much as long as the sectional density is somewhere between what the jacketed bullets will be in the end vs when they start out?

    I believe it's entirely a length thing. The heavier a bullet is the longer it has to be assuming the same materials being used. When you take away lead and replace it with copper alloy that length grows even more. I guess that's why Barnes simply don't offer a true heavy for calibre bullet? Standard rifles wouldn't shoot them.
     
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  20. Mekaniks

    Mekaniks GOLD SUPPORTER AH Elite

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    This is a picture of a a Barnes .338 185g TSX shot from a 338 WM and the only TSX that I have ever recovered. It went into the left shoulder of a black bear at about 35 yards. It hit the inside of the right shoulder and I found it under the hide in the right rear quarter. It lost one "petal" in the process. When I cut open the gut cavity it was one bloody mess....
    Because it lost a petal was it a "bullet failure"??? Absolutely Not !Sure it lost a petal, but the bullet did its job and the bear is dead....Thats all you can ask for IMO

    DSCN0563.JPG
     
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