Attempted Robbery at Africa Sky Guesthouse

[Brent in Az]

I just quickly looked up AZ law and its a defense to prosecution and NOT a bar to prosecution law. Your right you can shoot them and the DA can still charge you and a jury can still convict you and you will be broke from defense costs.

However, most Grand Juries out west would most likely "No Bill" you. But just remember a good prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich.

It would depend on the Judge, and if they would proceed with the case, or throw it out.?

 

[Edge]

Update: I sent an e-mail to AfricaSky and asked them to respond to either me directly or on this post.

Edge

 

[lwaters]

That's great. Who knows what the real story could be.

 

[wesheltonj]

That's great. Who knows what the real story could be.

Might look elsewhere. Discussion and lots of eye witness, under Dutch tourists discussion.

 

[BWH]

I have stayed at Africa Sky twice. Loved both experiences. Very clean & nice. Security, comfort, food, etc. All were great. However, I must say..... I would much rather be at a concession or en route, than wasting a night/day at a Guest House.

 

[JimP]

Sometimes a overnight stay is necessary just to logistics coming or going.

 

[Brent in Az]

I have no idea about the laws of RSA, perhaps @riflepermits.com can let us know. Nor do I know the laws of AZ. However, most of the "stand your ground" laws are a defense to prosecution and NOT a bar to prosecution. Big difference and an expensive one too.

This would be getting into gray areas of the law. Same applies with the Castle doctrine.

If someone breaks into my home, vehicle, or business, or puts me in danger and they are considered an immediate threat, deadly force can be used, and no retreat is necessary if I am in my legal right to be there. Arizona laws protect me from being prosecuted, as long as I didn't do anything within the gray areas of the law.

I just quickly looked up AZ law and its a defense to prosecution and NOT a bar to prosecution law. Your right you can shoot them and the DA can still charge you and a jury can still convict you and you will be broke from defense costs.

However, most Grand Juries out west would most likely "No Bill" you. But just remember a good prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich.

 

[wesheltonj]

From another site:

"It happened at 3 am. The thugs breached a wall with the neighboring property to enter onto the premises. They tied up the first security guard, while holding a knife to his throat, bound him, and then robbed him of his coat, shirt and shoes. They then moved on looking for a target. By the way, I had heard noises at one of my windows a few days earlier when I had stayed there the first time in the trip, before flying to the Eastern Cape. That might have been another incident, but I didn't really pay that much attention to it ( the first incident), thinking that maybe someone was checking windows to make sure that they were all closed. In Wayne's case he was yelling "help, help, help me", while the thugs were trying to come through the window. Bottom line: Be on the alert, no matter where you are or where you stay while in Joburg. No place is totally safe and secure."

 

[Pheroze]

The law in South Africa is not the same.

An article on the subject.

In order to determine the lawfulness of a defensive action, the courts apply the ‘reasonable man’ test – the question is whether a reasonable man in the same position would have done the same thing.

The following five factors are important:

1. The attack must be unlawful.
2. The attack must be imminent or already underway.
3. The attack must not be complete (it’s not self-defense if you shoot someone after the attack is over.)
4. The defensive action must be directed only against the attacker.
5. The defensive action must be proportionate to the circumstances (property value and the instrument used in the attack are key considerations.)

It may seem a little vague but if you follow the above guidelines and keep your actions within the principles of self-defense, you should be safe from legal repercussions.

For example: if you wake up in the middle of the night to find a stranger in your house and you shoot him immediately – and it turns out he did not have a weapon, you are going to find yourself in some trouble with the law.

If you shoot him and he did have a firearm – but he was never even aware of you, you’ll still be in hot water.

You cannot shoot the unsuspecting thief on the premise that if you confront him he would harm you – the preemptive strike principle is not applicable in private defense cases.

If the intruder has a knife (or screwdriver etc.) you will only be justified in shooting him if he attempts to stab someone – if he is just standing there holding a knife then shooting him could be judged to be disproportionate use of force.

It could be argued that the fact that an armed intruder is inside your home is enough threat to justify the use of lethal force against him – but there is no law clearly stating this precedent and each case would be judged on its own merits.

An important rule of thumb to keep in mind is that your property is not worth more than an intruder’s life – only shoot when your own or someone else’s life or physical safety is threatened.

So if the intruder is hot footing it across your lawn with your flat screen TV under one arm, it would not be considered justifiable to shot him because your life is nolonger in danger (it’s not self-defense if you shoot someone after the attack is over.)
http://northcoastcourier.co.za/69069/when-is-shooting-an-intruder-self-defense/

...unless you are a former South African Olympian....

 

[sestoppelman]

If a person feels legitimately threatened and in fear of their life and not just feeling their oats, deadly force should be used REGARDLESS the laws of wherever one happens to be. My grandpa had a couple of good sayings. "never shoot anybody unless you are prepared to die for the reason", and "rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

 

[Upton O. Good]

I cannot imagine wanting to be in a situation in South Africa or Zimbabwe trying to explain why I shot a guy in my room, self defense or not. TIA would rule in the situation and I've had my share of TIA already.

If, and when, I return to South Africa, I'll stay at the airport.

 

[wesheltonj]

...unless you are a former South African Olympian....

All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.

 

[edward]

I just quickly looked up AZ law and its a defense to prosecution and NOT a bar to prosecution law. Your right you can shoot them and the DA can still charge you and a jury can still convict you and you will be broke from defense costs.

However, most Grand Juries out west would most likely "No Bill" you. But just remember a good prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich.

because he or she is not interested in justice,only in a feather in their hat.the hell with the victim or family of same.

 

[sestoppelman]

I cannot imagine wanting to be in a situation in South Africa or Zimbabwe trying to explain why I shot a guy in my room, self defense or not. TIA would rule in the situation and I've had my share of TIA already.

If, and when, I return to South Africa, I'll stay at the airport.

No one wants to be in that situation, but sometimes we find ourselves in them thru no fault of our own. If push comes to shove, I refer to the above, grandpa's second saying...

 

[Edge]

Response from AfricaSky:

Dear Edward,


Thank you so much for this info‼


Yes, sadly AfricaSky, and our family and the Guest involved became part of the terrible statistics of living in Africa. We have security guards on duty every day and we belong to the local armed response company called CMS. Thanks to their quick response the robbers were not able to enter the room but very unfortunately made their way there.

We have now extended our alarm system to cover not only the inside of our perimeters but also security beams on the outside and added security lights on the walls. When a person comes to close to our walls on the outside, our alarm goes off at CMS’s offices and they send out the armed officers.

We believe that the outside alarm would give the response company those extra couple of minutes to reach us before these intruders can break their way in again and would notify our own security before the property is entered.


This is the main reason AfricaSky does not have signage on our vehicles transporting guests and we have NO advertisements on the roads leading to us either. Guests are being followed and robbed even in front of the big hotels in Sandton. We encourage all arriving guests NOT to change money at the airport on arrival as there are “people” inside the airport tipping of the robbers on the outside who then follows guests to their destination.

We have been running on the new security system the past 3 weeks, testing our response unit and we are very happy with the service we receive from them. The safety of our guests and staff members staying at AfricaSky is our top priority and we trust with the new upgraded security all will go well. We are in the process of installing emergency buttons in the rooms. These buttons are linked directly to security and medical services. We are just very thankful that the intruders couldn’t get into the room and that the guest wasn’t harmed – just very very sorry for the emotional stress this incident caused our guest, ourselves and our staff!


If you would be so kind to copy this response to those links it would be greatly appreciated!



Kind Regards,


Deidre Bekker


AfricaSky Guest House

Front Office Manager

Reservations:- +27 (82) 7490674

Email: africasky@mweb.co.za

Website: www.africasky.co.za

 

[Shootist43]

It sounds like AfricaSky has taken steps to improve their security. I'd like to hear from some of the "security" and or law enforcement professionals on AH if there are other improvements that can be made. Myself I was thinking about them having "in-house" security with canines. A well trained "pooch" has saved a lot of butts in the past.

 

[CAustin]

Unfortunately crime is totally out of control in SA. Until we get a new government in charge, it's just going to get worse.

Is it even possible that a new government will come to power?

 

[Brent in Az]

Is it even possible that a new government will come to power?

They need a grassroots movement, in the right direction.

 

[CAustin]

They need a grassroots movement, in the right direction.

No doubt they do need such a movement. My question to Simon was is there even a real possibility of such a thing taking place. If we are hearing more and more about violence in that country......what must it actually be like?
The only guest house I have stayed in has been the Lombardy which has on premise security and a 12 foot fence around the compound! Essentially I have been in the company of my outfitterthe last three trips and not used a guest house.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

It sounds like AfricaSky has taken steps to improve their security. I'd like to hear from some of the "security" and or law enforcement professionals on AH if there are other improvements that can be made. Myself I was thinking about them having "in-house" security with canines. A well trained "pooch" has saved a lot of butts in the past.

Neither a LEO or security professional, but I'm thinking bars on all windows large enough for a person to come through would be a proper addition.